(Topic ID: 76824)

New Developments: Lock Release, LED Boards, Sound

By Crash

10 years ago


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  • 20 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by Crash
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 10 years ago

Today I paid a visit to Pintucky and we spent about 3 hours total looking at his game. Here's precisely what we found:

Munchkin Lock

First of all after reverting to 1.18 Mike was having trouble with his munchkin hut lock release coil. It would work fine in switch test mode when I sent a ball up the ramp, lifting up and allowing the ball to pass through. The issue was it would not release upon the third ball lock after the multiball start sequence. It would also not release during a ball search. I also believe this to be the case with 1.24/1.25. If that happens you have to pull the glass and free the balls manually, even entering the test menu and leaving would not release them, niether would cycling the power on the game.

So I went into coil test and tried to fire it in the manual coil test using the start button. Nothing happened. Earlier he took off the munchkin hut plastic and checked the coil and opto wires and found no issues. I also tested the optos by stacking 3 balls behind the lock release in switch test, that worked perfectly and I pushed the 3 balls around and there was no fluttering of the opto switch closures. This is not an opto problem. So then I decided to isolate the coil itself by jumping its drive transistor on the driver board. The coil fired both times I did this with the playfield sitting on its rubber bumpers in the forward service position. The playfield was not moved at all from when I tried this in coil test. So now we know it's a software related issue; not a 70v drive circuit problem, and not a driver board problem coming off the PC motherboard. I also noticed two fuses with no lights/voltage on the driver board but considering the board is not fully utilized yet (or even fully stuffed), I chalked this up to normal by design. Something is really screwed up in the game software that causes the munchkin lock not to release when multiball starts and in coil test. And speaking of software, I also meant to hash the 1.18 ISO file to check for errors but ran out of time. I'm assuming it's fine considering the machine booted from the unetbootin drive and installed successfully.

But here's the kicker: We reinstalled 1.18 fresh and, after fixing the LEDs, the coil started working again. It was doing fine at the start of multiball, and the timing was perfect too. It seems to be a completely random problem, some games it will work, some it will not. But to my knowledge this is the first time it has worked in gameplay since he started having this problem back in September, which correlates with his numerous LED board failures. The game still tends to lose track of balls about 5 minutes in, sometimes you will drain and it won't call the drain sequence, others you will have a ball already in the monkey lock at the start of a game, other times the machine will not release locked balls from the munchkin lock at the end of a game. And all of this started happening when the first LED board failed. This machine was rock solid when I played it in early September and my extensive gameplay video proves it. There is absolutely a correleation between board failures and strange playfield behavior, regardless of what you were told. Like the crystal ball connector, the serial chained nature of the LED boards causes garbage data to be returned to the PC when there is a failure and negatively affects the entire game's operation.

LED Boards

When we started, half of his playfield lights were out. All the GI was fine besides one connector that came loose which affected no more than one or two GI lights. He quickly found the culprit board, replaced it, and we were rocking and rolling (mostly). His new 7.5v W1 board is failing again evidently, one of the LEDs is glowing orange instead of yellow. Also, the top TNPLH inserts lights bluish when it should be completely off. Other than that everything else seems fine. As I mentioned once we got all the LEDs going again by replacing that one board the munchkin lock started working again like it was before any of these failures. I checked the voltages coming from the bottom terminal of the 5v LED power supply in the very back of the cabinet against the back wall and I got 119v going in (normal) and 5.20 volts (!) going out to the purple and black LED power supply connectors. This is somewhat alarming, the voltage coming off this supply is 0.2v too high. I can't think of a reason why this would be the case, but it could very well be contributing to the failing of both his old 5v LED boards and his new 7.5v ones. Mike, as well as others with 7.5v failures, should demand JJP send them a new 7.5v power supply, unless it has been proven that a new 7.5v supply in combination with all new 7.5v LED boards does not solve the problem (or prevent it from ever occurring).

Also when looking at the boards and adjusting a rollover switch I noticed the boards are mounted very close above those switches. This is clearly a bad design, as the back side of these LED boards can short out against the metal leaf switches they are mounted to. Could these be causing some of the LED failures? I didn't see any shorts on this machine, and some have reported blown board fuses, but food for thought...

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Sound

For the past couple of days the sound on Mike's game started acting up. This is the latest failure on this particular machine. The sub in the cabinet lost all sound and it seems to me like the 2 channels in the backbox are out of phase. The sound seems unusally tinny and lacking bass, and the witch's voice can barely be heard when a game is started. This sounds like a capacitor failure somewhere on the audio amplifier board underneath the metal cover of the PC box above the SSD hard drive to the right (the Pinnovators audio board). Also, there is a distinct whining noise from the top speakers in the background, sounds like a ground loop. I hear this as soon as I turned on the machine, so it's not coming from the PC as it had not booted yet. Also, I notice some faint noises as the PC was starting up, similar to the digital noises you would hear when connecting headphones to a laptop. Given this I am also suspecting a ground loop of some sort is causing/contributing to this noise. We checked cables and connections both outside the PC box and under the cover, and didn't see anything loose or disconnected. The audio line out jack in the back was also fine, as it has been a suspected cause of this problem on other peoples' games.

#2 10 years ago

Thanks for taking the time to share this wealth of knowledge!

Interesting issues..I have new boards going in tomorrow...lets hope for the best.

#3 10 years ago

Crash-

First, thanks for the info on that game. Sounds like there are some issues to be dealt with for sure. I'd like to help you out with some of the info.

First, regarding LEDs on the IO board. If high power is engaged, Every single LED under/next to the fuses is lit. If the IO board is communicating with the Motherboard, then the three LEDs in the logic section of the board (closer to the front of the board) will be active. Two of them flash quickly, one of them is solid on. If any of your LEDs on the IO board are out, you either have a blown fuse, no communication with the motherboard, or your missing some high power (interlock switch not active). The LEDS under the fuse are directly powered off of the high-power lines. They are not logic controlled. If the high power voltage is there, the LED is on.

Regarding the code issue with the Munchkin Hut- Possible there could have been a problem there, but to me it seems more likely that it is a loose/flaky connection,especially since you mentioned the LEDs being out on the IO board. Moving the playfield in and out likely reset the connector in the plug. Perhaps the trough board opto set wasn't registering enough balls, so your game got confused with how many could be locked. Check to make sure the trough optos are working well, and talk to Lloyd if they are not. I could see how that could make the game lose track of balls. Definitely a strange issue. However, if Pintucky's game works now, then great. At least you guys got a solution to work.

Regarding the light boads- As I'm sure you're aware, the 5V boards have had some issues in some games (in a bunch of games, they work fine, which is very frustrating when trying to troubleshoot this). The 7.5V boards work very well, but bad/flaky 5V boards can knock out a 7.5V board.

***The following is for informational purposes only. Please do not adjust your LED voltage supply!***
There is a potentiometer on your 5V supply. The chips on the boards will safely work up to 5.5V, and the voltage was set to 5.2 to account for voltage drop in the wire and to give more headroom if there is a low voltage condition, which can cause light lockups. * DO NOT adjust your potentiometer with your boards attached! Do not adjust you boards above 5.2. One slip, and you just burned out a lot of board fuses. Seriously, don't adjust that potentiometer. Also, if you ignore me, please nobody electrocute themselves while doing this. I don't need that shit on my conscious.

The proximity of the rollover switch to the bottom of the RGB should be adjusted if it is close enough to make contact. Either adjust the bracket of the LED, or adjust the switch itself.

Regarding problems with the 7.5V boards- Are those LED the wrong color from startup, or does this occur after the game has been on for a while? My thought is maybe a bad solder pad or a bad component on the board. There have been intermittent assembly issues with some of the 7.5V boards, and we replace them if this is the case. Talk to Lloyd if this is an issue.

Audio board issues- Most games shipped with a ground-loop isolator between the soundboard and the motherboard starting last summer. If Pintucky's game doesn't have one, they're pretty cheap and easy to find. The routing of that audio cable can make a big difference in distortion pickup due to radiated emissions from the transformer, motherboard, power supply, and IO board. Please try adjusting the cable when the game is on to see if the sound improves in quality. If the soundboard has gone out, Lloyd will hook you up with a new one if you submit a ticket.

Hope this helped,

Eric

#4 10 years ago

Hogbog, please keep up the good work. We appreciate the technical info very much.

#5 10 years ago
Quoted from Hogbog:

The 7.5V boards work very well, but bad/flaky 5V boards can knock out a 7.5V board.

Then why does JJP not face the reality that all 5V boards should be swapped out to make the game solid? This 'wait for one to fail and then replace it...' seems like an endless cycle to drag people through if the game will continue to eat itself.

#6 10 years ago

We did this stuff with the coin door open. High power was still working though as other coils were firing in coil test so Mike may have pulled the interlock switch. So 5.2v is normal? I heard the 5v boards don't have voltage regulators on them, not sure what that means for lifespan. Alex said there were some damper diodes added to provide a forward voltage drop against spikes generated by changes in light patterns down the chain. But 5v boards killing the new 7.5v ones? That's bizarre, and totally unacceptable for JJP to be sending these out knowing they will fail! They shouldn't be making their customers jump through these hoops, especially with such an expensive machine that was promised to work well out of the box.

And if the 5.2v coming off the power supply is normal, why do new 7.5v power supplies seem to be solving these problems for good?

#7 10 years ago

Eric I sent you a PM.

#8 10 years ago

Has anyone else had problems with their munchkin hut optos being affected by external light? Although these test out fine I wonder if some light is getting in there and affecting operation with the playfield lowered and glass on. The game is near a door, and it's an early build. Day 2 preorder, game #120. This means the metal brackets around the optos have. It been revised and painted black due to unwanted reflections. This may very well be what's going on...

#9 10 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Has anyone else had problems with their munchkin hut optos being affected by external light? Although these test out fine I wonder if some light is getting in there and affecting operation with the playfield lowered and glass on. The game is near a door, and it's an early build. Day 2 preorder, game #120. This means the metal brackets around the optos have. It been revised and painted black due to unwanted reflections. This may very well be what's going on...

I talked to one of the guys with one of the first games and he initially had a problem and I believe they blackened the area to resolve it but I am not sure of the details.

1 month later
#10 10 years ago

Let me chime in on this one final time.
For months Mike and I have been trying to figure out exactly why his Munchkinland release arm will not always work. Sometimes it works fine during a game, others it will not work at all. I have verified all 3 lock optos are functioning correctly to a T. Not getting any false opto readings from outside light sources. I believe Mike has the newer black mounting arm to suppress unwanted light reflections from reaching the receiving optos.

The release arm moves freely and smoothly. I tested this multiple times. I even grounded the transistor for that coil manually. Coil fires fine (in service position with playfield pulled forward with support rails resting on the lockdown bar receiver). So there is no connection issue between the coil and driver board.

It's something in software. I could also not fire the coil in the test menu (the playfield was in the same service position as it was when I grounded the coil, so no coil power wires are getting pinched due to moving the playfield or its position).

I don't mind writing an entire speil on these issues as you can tell (sometimes more like a novel). But I have explained this multiple times both on Pinside and this forum, and neither of us have gotten a straight answer. Not because people are ignoring us, but because there simply is no straight answer. The only possible deduction I can make is software/behavioral issues at the PC level, and these are affected by the failing lamp boards introducing bad information back into the data lines that ultimately tie back in to the PC.

Don't believe the lights are causing weird stuff? We plugged in a replacement small light board (entire half of playfield was out before we did this) and immediately the entire playfield was restored to normal, AND the lock release arm started working again for the first time in months. Also, all this weird stuff started as soon as Mike lost his first light board. Plus, a lot (if not all) of the owners who report similar behavioral issues also have light board issues. Different failures, different numbers of boards failing, different locations of these failures, thus different behavioral issues all across the board.

Rob, Eric, and the rest of the engineering team know that it all boils down to bad power filtering in the supply voltages going to the LED boards. Their research and in-house testing has proven this.

My ultimate point here is that we need to stop scratching our heads on weird issues like these that no one can figure out, and then wait and see until everyone has these retrofit daughter boards installed to properly condition the LED board power and in turn, stop these LED board failures that are causing all of this.

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#11 10 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

We plugged in a replacement small light board (entire half of playfield was out before we did this) and immediately the entire playfield was restored to normal, AND the lock release arm started working again for the first time in months. Also, all this weird stuff started as soon as Mike lost his first light board. Plus, a lot (if not all) of the owners who report similar behavioral issues also have light board issues. Different failures, different numbers of boards failing, different locations of these failures, thus different behavioral issues all across the board.
Rob, Eric, and the rest of the engineering team know that it all boils down to bad power filtering in the supply voltages going to the LED boards. Their research and in-house testing has proven this.
My ultimate point here is that we need to stop scratching our heads on weird issues like these that no one can figure out, and then wait and see until everyone has these retrofit daughter boards installed to properly condition the LED board power and in turn, stop these LED board failures that are causing all of this.

That does sound like an "electrical noise" issue (unwanted high frequencies possibly causing corrupt signals). There are all kinds of RLC (resistor/inductor/capacitor) circuits that can be tried to remedy that type of problem.

#12 10 years ago

Crash: what are these retrofit daughter boards?

#13 10 years ago

They're supposed to be something to solve the issue. Jack announced them a couple of weeks ago. Not sure if they reached anybody yet.

#14 10 years ago

I had issues with my hut/ramp lock, but it it wasnt software related as far as i could see (either something was binding it, or the curve of the front brought on additional weight from 2 and 3 balls locked that kept it from opening)

If this is still an issue, i would do one additional test. put the leads of a multimeter on the coil and then fire the coil test for the ramp lock. if it doesnt come up, are you seeing a charge on the MM showing that power has reached the coil?

That magnet design to lift that lock up seems a little iffy if anything binds or weights on it at all. but thats just what i noticed on my machine. I pulled the winkie hut off, cleared the coil wires more out of the way and bent the bottom base up slightly (that the lock bar slaps back on to) and i havent had a lock issue since.

#15 10 years ago

I wonder if the winged monkey mech is hitting led board #11 on the backboard on some machines Mekong these issues related.

1 month later
#16 9 years ago

I have issues similar to these lighting issues discussed above. However, in my case, some of the lights will lock up in a given state.

These LED's will not test properly if they are locked up, however, they all test good on a clean start of the machine. Once locked up, the only way to get them working again is to shut the machine off, and turn it back on. In other words, a new game doesn't reset them, and neither will any menu driven LED test.

My problem is that since the boards all work on a clean start, and all test fine, I am finding it difficult in determining what the issue is, what board is the bad actor, or if it's a software glitch. The machine is running 3.0 delta.

Otherwise, the game is a lot of fun.

#17 9 years ago
Quoted from jsrfo:

I have issues similar to these lighting issues discussed above. However, in my case, some of the lights will lock up in a given state.

Open a ticket with JJP. They've got a fix that they started sending out a week or two ago.

#18 9 years ago

Oh so they have officially been sending out the much-anticipated fix? Can you point me to the announcement thread?

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Oh so they have officially been sending out the much-anticipated fix? Can you point me to the announcement thread?

Check out the owners group. There's a 100+ post thread called something like, "Did I miss the promised LED fix announcement", that has Jack commenting on some things. There wasn't an 'official' announcement per se; just the ticketing system, so, like, you tell them you have a problem, they send you the new boards that they just got in about 8 days ago.

#20 9 years ago

Thanks, I'll check it out!

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