The conversation was so asinine that I drained the thread rather than continue to be sucked into reading it any more. I knew if I didn't I'd keep checking back in and just getting annoyed.

But I didn't complain in the thread or add to the noise, I just hit eject and let people do their thing.

This is a little bit of a whiney feature request, but I have to admit I would love the ability to ignore someone temporarily for just one thread. I only have one person on ignore, our resident TMNT pajamas wearing halfwit. I don't feel the need to ignore people generally, he only got it after sending me harassing PMs.

But I'd love to be able to "silence" people who are just pointlessly engaging in pedantic back and forth bickering for just a thread, without permanently cutting them off in other threads.

Sans that I'm a big boy and I can skim over stuff I don't care about and stop reading if it gets really bad.

The truth is most threads that turn into boob fests or go way off track are because there's nothing to talk about in relation to the topic, and people are just jawing in the vacuum. That seems fine, it's not hurting any real conversations.

I personally am bored with the boob pics though. I know how to find that stuff if I feel the need.

It's not like Pinside has a monopoly on Pinball forums, plenty out there already. I like this one a lot, you take the good with the bad, but the bad is far outweighed. But do we really have to tiptoe around saying some "other" site's name? Like we're all gonna defect if we find out what it is?

Not directing it at you specifically, a few people have said "other" now. I don't think we should have to worry about mentioning some other forum by name is all.

I find that Pinside is what you make of it. If you don't care for drama it's pretty easy to avoid. Just stop reading the threads about games that aren't out yet and 90% of it will vanish from your life!

Ha, finally get to see the other end of Nate randomly dialing me on Ben's phone in the middle of their talk.

Was good to meet you Nate. Family first, take care of your wife!

That's what she — ...

Yeah, I talked with Jonathan about that. His attitude was it was his party, he'd invite whoever he wanted to. Fine. Put a pic of it up on Facebook with that crook standing there then expect that people are going to call you on it.

Nice. Watching that made me feel like I never got on the plane and left, that's what it felt like to be there.

Hmm, I should read it again maybe, that's not my memory. My memory is that it was poo-pooed by the flow hoes (love that new term) and people who mainly play and collect modern Sterns. And that's fine! No such thing as universal pinball, variety is good.

I honestly don't know any serious tournament players who don't love the early Ballys. Hell, it was Jim Belsito who turned me on to Mystic and Flash Gordon.

I'm also reasonably certain I could make a "simpler" game that would appeal to those people, there's a lot that modern technology can bring to the table for people who are bored with older games or don't really see the appeal or want to give them a chance.

But my thread wasn't about trying to convince anyone, I was mostly curious to see the reactions. They were about what I expected. You can't just pitch an idea and expect everyone to get it. You need to really show it first. Plus, I could be totally wrong!

Time absolutely has value.

I think there's this misguided notion that everything needs to be done "for the love of pinball". Hey, nice sentiment, and lots of us volunteer our time and efforts and expertise and even money and products etc. All the time.

No one should be looked down on for being compensated for their time though. These events that people enjoy don't spring out of Zeus' forehead.

Quote the whole thing instead of taking it out of context.

That's fine if you collect to collect. Or you're a museum. Or you have lots of space and spare cash. Or you like to speculate on rare games.

For the rest of us it's a $6000 pinball, just like any other game, and it has to be judged by the same criteria. I'm not a patron, I'm a player.

So yes, I hope history looks back on this as the start of a great company. But I don't think I missed the point at all. I was really hoping I could look past the things that didn't work for me. Ultimately I couldn't. Whoever got my spot isn't mad, and I wish them and Spooky well.

I don't believe for a second that Nate has been bought off. I don't listen to his show much, but that's because I'm a grumpy podcast hater. Every time I have it's been great, and it's obviously coming from a place of passion. I've had the pleasure of meeting him in person, and he's just as warm and genuine as he is in his podcasts.

Since I work in journalism as my day job I know all about the accusations of bias people put out. And the reality is it's harder to defend yourself against them when you take money from someone you cover. It's a tough tightrope sometimes.

I thought the ACDC/Keith Elwin episode of PBWTP was great, looking forward to more. Though I'll be honest, might not bother to watch episodes for Sterns I don't care about, like Mustang. That's a game that feels like a result of the "all Sterns" deal more than anything people really care about. But hey, I could be wrong on that.

But either way who gives a shit? I mean, he's putting his time and effort into it, he can cover whatever he wants. Don't care about Mustang? Don't watch.

Why the fuck doesn't everyone just put him on ignore already? I did it ages ago, I never see his avatar, and I wouldn't know about his stupid car if you'd all just stop talking about it. Seriously, you can always reverse it, try it for a week, and see if your life isn't better for it.

If the art was killer, and not kiddie, I probably would have swallowed the higher price to get it.

Give me a proper Green Goblin too please, not this hulked out steroid using wannabe gargoyle reject.

ssm_200_(resized).jpg1417431-norman_osborn_052_(resized).jpgtumblr_m55fisl59E1qfxwtoo1_1280_(resized).jpg4476543-green-goblin-card-hr-1_(resized).jpg

People have opinions, and about spending money, on pinballs! Hilarious!

Good lord, I swear the worst part of Pinside now is the people whining about people whining. At least if you're complaining about the price you're talking pinball. When you're complaining about the complainers you're just a nanny.

Here's a topic for you Nate: does complaining on the internet actually accomplish anything for pinball? PM me and I'll give you my off the record reasons why it does. There are plenty of easy ones that are publicly known though, like the Hobbit playfield being updated because we spoke up.

A super nanny? Mary Poppins?

4589_(resized).jpg

I upvoted for this. This, to me, is the bottom line. Forget old prices from 2008 or whatever. Stern set the value proposition with Iron Man VE, and it's the point of reference for me.

I think SM is worth more than IM. And the new art etc isn't free.

But let's be honest about what we're talking about here. The new art is all taken from a Marvel library, none of it was drawn for the pin. And it's mostly a 1 replacement. Not saying it wasn't work, but I could have knocked it all out in a week, and the bulk of it over a weekend. It's just not that hard when you have an existing layout to follow and assets to drop in.

Voice work isn't expensive when it's not someone famous.

Not downplaying the work, it was there, but so was all the work that was done already. Like designing and engineering and coding a full game. The hard part was done already. It was just a reskin. And not to a new theme, it's swap one Spidey for another, not even Family Guy to Shrek.

Stern's business, they set their prices, and we can only armchair quarterback. But the value wasn't there for me with new school kiddie Spider-Man art, no new technology, not even Spike with properly fading and blooming LEDs. Definitely old DMD, no RGB lights, none of the real upgrades new games can offer.

Wasn't a $2k difference.

How much did Stern pay you to say that?!

I've seen very few people who think that SMVE should have been priced the same as IMVE. Sure, some, but there are always outliers.

The majority seem to hold the opinion, which I share, that a price point that shipped the game around or under $6k would have moved a lot more units. I'm with the "too high" raise crowd, not the "never raise prices" crowd.

Stern can do their own math, not my problem to figure out. I won't buy the game, others can do differently. Personally I hope the game flops. Not because I hate Stern and capitalism, but because I want the market to speak up that this constant rising price thing has to see an end. The value proposition is getting really skewed, and that sucks.

Stern is having a record year, they're pumping out games, they moved into a bigger factory, they're hiring more people, they're obviously doing well with their profit margins. I think they've gotten greedy and overreached on this one. Their Premium price just doesn't match up with what they're offering.

I could be wrong. This is a forum, where we share our opinions. I know I understand how business is done, that's definitely not my problem.

I know that wasn't directed at me! Didn't mean to make it sound like it. But I did think you sounded a little dismissive.

I've made more than a few rants in my time here over being frustrated at people's myopic views (from my own viewpoint). So I totally get it.

But I think in this case there's a middle ground, meaning a higher price, but not that high, where a lot more would have bought in, and it's not Pro or bust. But I'll be perfectly honest, I haven't listened to your show. So I'm totally summing up your arguments based on what you wrote and what other people have said. Which isn't particularly fair.

I just don't have the patience to listen to podcasts. I work from home, I don't commute, and I have music on pretty much all day. I grudgingly turn that off for brief moments to watch teh youtubes. I'll stop the tunes for 6 minutes to hear what Killer Mike has to say on Colbert.

You know I love what you do though.

Yes. That is what I'm saying, in a nutshell. I'd prefer $5800, $5900, $6k is the ceiling. Do you never draw a line? You can always be talked into just paying some more? I should sell you some games!

It did for me! And the evidence if you believe the comments is that this is a common conception when it comes to value. Prices are only so elastic, there are barriers people won't cross. And that's financial, but it's also psychological.

It's $500 dollars man! I don't wipe my ass with $100 bills, $500 is money that can buy a lot of things. Maybe you've missed it, but the internet is freaking out today that the Oculus Rift is $600. They expected $500, and that $100 difference matters.

Here's a story our gaming editor did on that:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/01/vr-sticker-shock-how-oculus-failed-to-prepare-the-world-for-a-599-rift/

I like this comment:

As for the article, he was dead on, the expectation did not set up a reality of a $600 sticker. I would have thought around $500, and was ready to drop the money had that price point been met. $600 is just that line that a lot of people, myself included, won't bother crossing.

People draw lines.

You can play this game all day. If $6500 is okay, why isn't $7000? $7500? Why not just buy a $10,000 TBL? You're buying luxury goods, does that little bit of math really matter to your happiness and sense of ownership of awesome things? (I have not reached the state of über capitalist mastery where I can say money doesn't matter, just bring me what I want.)

For me I draw the line when it comes to value. I paid $7200 for my METLE. Because I wanted it that badly. I was willing to pay that much. Maybe I'll do it again. It's gotta be something amazing to me personally though. Ultimate Spider-Cartoon Remake Edition wasn't that thing. Stern set the remake value with Iron Man, would have been fair in my eyes to charge $1000ish more for Spider-Man to cover the extra costs, and that's as high as I was willing to go I guess.

I promise you they read what happens here, and pay attention to it. And I think that's a reason to speak up. But to your point, the more constructive you are the better chance your voice has of being heard. IMHO.

There's a certain value in 100 people saying something sucks.

But if people can articulate their issues and what they hope to see it changes the equation.

I bet you we see more hand drawn art packages from Stern. Doesn't mean they're gonna be great, I think this Spider-Man remake is a good example of hearing but not listening, but it's a start. And it comes from people voicing their opinions. Which isn't the same as whining.

True. And honestly $600 to get in on the exciting future of VR? Sure, why not. I don't doubt it sold.

But it was a really handy example of people expecting one price, and being out when it was higher, even though the difference was only $100.

You have to draw a line somewhere. At the end of the day you have only so much money. I have a certain amount in cash available right this minute. CL pin? I can buy it tonight. If it's more than what I have, well, it's too much.

My favorite Ritchie quote is when someone asked for his advice if they wanted to get into making pinballs:

"Set yourself on fire".

I enjoyed talking with Nate, hopefully it wasn't incredibly boring to listen to.

Uh, hmm, is that good or bad? I'm 5'11'' for the record, not particularly tall.

I can't remember now if I mentioned my Alien Mondo poster during the recording part or not, but I have the Ansin too.

I think I've missed the recent developments in the Mondo poster space, got a link to what you're talking about?

I enjoyed talking with Nate, he asked if I would come back at some point and I said I'd be happy to. We ended up chatting for a while longer after the show was over, before he realized how late it was, some time after midnight, not sure.

Didn't stop him from getting the show up in a timely fashion though!

Just to be clear nothing is decided yet. I honestly have no idea if we can use her likeness or not yet, that's still to come in negotiations. It's entirely up to her. I know it seems weird, but rights to the move ≠ rights to use the actors in it.

The licensed title thing is really just horribly stupid, and I'm utterly over it. I'm going to do whatever is within my power to make the Alien the best game I can, with whatever influence I have, but then I'm done with it all; it's simply not worth the headache and heartache to deal with a license ever again.

Hopefully I sounded upbeat on the podcast, but I'll be honest, eating shit all day because of things that are utterly out of my control is wearing me down right now. And none of it has anything to do with the important part, which is making a good game. So it's a drag.

Thanks guys. I'm fine, I'm not a fragile butterfly. I appreciate it though.

Probably just a little tired, defenses are low. Catching up on some sleep wouldn't hurt. Gotta stop staying up late talking to podcast hosts.

Ah, gotcha. The four Mondo posters I have in my office are the Mike Sutfin Lord of the Rings, the Randy Ortiz Army of Darkness, the Ansin Alien, and the Laurent Durieux Forbidden Planet.

I don't know what voodoo hoops Mondo goes through to get their posters approved, but I wish they would teach pinball makers their tricks!

My hope with Alien is that for the LE we can say to Fox, hey, this is for collectors, not commercial operation, you should give us some freedom to stray from the style guide.

Man, the way he raked me over the coals, I'm still applying vaseline to my chapped ass!

Wow, thanks. I guess it's no surprise to anyone that I have lots of thoughts and opinions on pinball, but I didn't know how it would come off over a Skype call.

Honestly I was tired, and it had been a long day of reading (a handful really) people being negative. I was trying to not be defensive, but probably came off that way somewhat. Thanks a lot, I appreciate it, truly.

Me too!

Honestly things are progressing so much better now than they were over the fall, there was a slow patch there. Having the playfield approved makes a huge difference, it was rough without that, it's such a major component of things.

We're really going to pull for showing off a machine at TPF. Code and sound and animation are progressing steadily, we'll have that part, it's the mechanical playfield that's out of my hands. I can only supervise the US side of things.

Thanks! But for the record I didn't have anything to do with Predator.

I can confirm a Nate sighting at Arcade Expo.

rotordave wasn't out for this one, so he would have been hard to find!

I was there Saturday. I spent time in the Archer room, and I was at Tim's custom Getaway party, but otherwise I was wandering the floor all day.

FB too now. I don't think it's much of a secret.

I didn't listen to the interview, I'll be honest, I didn't even know Nate was doing the podcast again.

Was the context about how it's what on the playfield that matters, and not up on the LCD screen? What's the under glass reference about?

More than half my collection doesn't even have a DMD, so I'm obviously not a snob about displays being the only way to have a good game. But if you don't think LCD screens give you the ability to do new things with pinball you have no imagination.

Whatever you think of Hobbit's gameplay and rules tell me you could have that game with just a red DMD. No way.

You could argue it's not better if its not your thing, but I don't think you can say it's not different.

Just adding an LCD alone isn't enough. It can function like a DMD. But the potential is there if you do the work.

That's pretty irrelevant. You don't have to like Hobbit. I haven't spent enough time with it to really judge, but I don't think it's for me. Stack fests aren't my favorite.

But look at the display. There are 9 zones of constant information, along with the instructions and info on the book. The rules are built around all of that information. When I say it couldn't be done without an LCD I mean it, the rule set just wouldn't work with a DMD. Too limited.

It doesn't mean it's a better game. That's up to personal preference. But it is a different game.

This is what I mean about imagination. There are new things that can be tried. Hobbit is just one example, there will be more to come I'm certain.

Whatever Stern does with Batman and Aerosmith I see going to LCD as positive progress.

Yeah, that's really not the same thing. Have you played Hobbit? There's a ton of info at your fingertips, at any time, that affects play. You can't trap up and hit status report and page through any time you need to know all that stuff, it would just be painful.

Absolutely. It's not a magic bullet. And even if done in some crazy complicated fashion it doesn't mean the game is 'better'.

All I'm saying is that it's a new tool, that allows for new ideas, and with some imagination could create new gameplay that wasn't possible before. Just like modern pins are just similar parts to old solid states under the glass, but things like new software with more memory, color changing lights, and just more sophisticated thinking have allowed them to evolve into different beasts. We play them differently now.

Compare say Eight Ball Deluxe, which had great rules for its time (and is still a great game, I own it) to a DMD game like TSPP. Pinball Party has a crazy ruleset, with the way you stack modes and reset the timer and keep everything juggled at once. It's a different play experience, made possible with hardware that didn't exist in 1980. I actually like EBD better as a pin to own, TSPP isn't really a game that resonates with me. But even if I don't enjoy it a ton, I still really appreciate it. It pushed the envelope at the time.

And if you think about it, TSPP has the little dot matrix TV screen for the timers, it was using a display to show you more real time information as you played.

Totally agree again, I love good dots. Metallica is, to me, the pinnacle of dot animation, and also one of my all time favorite games. So good. I like it just the way it is. (Well ... with a ColorDMD!)

But if I can be self promotional in Nate's thread, Alien isn't doing anything super radical with the LCD screen in terms of rules. We're taking advantage of being able to show information, like being able to display all the scores at once at all times (except for brief periods of full screen animation, like Extra Ball) but it's not a Hobbit-like "information density" experience. It's not pushing the envelope.

BUT — The atmosphere we're pulling off with the LCD screen (under the glass mind you!) just wouldn't be possible with dots. Our animator, Kelly, is manipulating movie clips and bringing a lot of cool scenes and action to life that would be a smeary mess of garbage with a DMD. Worse than Spider-Man or Iron Man, these clips are too dark and full of texture to translate at all.

I'm really hopeful that people will think we killed it with the atmosphere, and that playing it will be immersive feeling, and the LCD will be a big part of that.

Nate that was an excellent interview, kudos.

KME and I aren't friends or anything, just occasional run into each other chat style, but we were talking a while back after he was hired at Stern, and I said when his game came out I hoped that he would really be able to discuss the journey from Archer to it. This was exactly the conversation I wanted to hear.