"Pwn is a leetspeak slang term derived from the verb own, as meaning to appropriate or to conquer to gain ownership. The term implies domination or humiliation of a rival, used primarily in the Internet-based video game culture to taunt an opponent who has just been soundly defeated (e.g., "You just got pwned!")."

Wow. Sounds like some from Idiocracy

You got pwned!

Nate has put so much into this hobby it is understandable he will be defensive about this. His earned loyal listeners enjoy him partially because he reports more on the scene and public opinion. When we feel that is being influenced (don't deny this Nate, it's not even a question it has been now) we get upset. It is a shame because Nates popularity was earned through his love/dedication and now it's different. Stinks

I guess I should listen to the new episode. Can't really fault the guy for taking in a sponsor and not bad mouth them.

What do you mean "listen to the episode". You are supposed to give your comments and accuse people of thing first. Get the facts later.

Nate- love your show, and great job on PWTP. Amazing how well you put it all together, can't even imagine how much time that must take to film and edit everything. Thank you so much for all the effort you put into it, and know that it's much appreciated! Cheers!

Joe

Nate, love the show. don't change a thing. ignore and pity the special children here.

Has Spooky publicly mentioned we love Nate despite all his evil and completely biased flaws?

I think the problem with this episode's Math with Nate is that all of your potential customers believe it cost you $2.15 to manufacture your Motörhead frisbee, not $4.

I'm certainly not a NIB Stern customer, so I won't pretend to speak for them, but it does seem from my outside view that they're getting more and more pushback as prices go up and BOM/content goes down. Has that reached the point where it actually reduces sales? I guess we'll find out when pricing for the next non-vault model is announced.

I don't believe for a second that Nate has been bought off. I don't listen to his show much, but that's because I'm a grumpy podcast hater. Every time I have it's been great, and it's obviously coming from a place of passion. I've had the pleasure of meeting him in person, and he's just as warm and genuine as he is in his podcasts.

Since I work in journalism as my day job I know all about the accusations of bias people put out. And the reality is it's harder to defend yourself against them when you take money from someone you cover. It's a tough tightrope sometimes.

I thought the ACDC/Keith Elwin episode of PBWTP was great, looking forward to more. Though I'll be honest, might not bother to watch episodes for Sterns I don't care about, like Mustang. That's a game that feels like a result of the "all Sterns" deal more than anything people really care about. But hey, I could be wrong on that.

But either way who gives a shit? I mean, he's putting his time and effort into it, he can cover whatever he wants. Don't care about Mustang? Don't watch.

Why not sell those as mods? That's what they've been doing with shaker motors and LEs. They added those things to make it seem worth it at the higher price point. They probably should have priced it lower and kept those as aftermarket purchases. Everyone would have been happy then.

Edit: Sorry thought I was in the other Spidey thread. I haven't listened to the show yet but I can't imagine Stern's sponsorship affecting Nate's views. His criticism of the GOT art was coming as a fan, I imagine his acceptance of the price of Spidey is a reflection of being in a similar industry.

Who gives a fuck really? Nate does a great show and I will listen till be decides to stop putting out episodes. If you don't like it, don't listen. It is a simple solution.

Lol, the episode was fine. People are just jealous and need something to complain about once again. No idea why some poster brought up ego into this. Not every podcast we has an ego. I have a podcast and I think I'm great.

Nate. Great job with the show. Keep up the good work and don't listen to these trolls.

Nate, listened to the episode. Nothing to get excited about. Keep up the good work!

I'd say people could pick a random episode where Nate talks even remotely positively about Stern (there's enough to choose from, like, say, when he got his Met Pro LED) and accuse him of bias if they listened to it after PWTP was sponsored. He put it best on the last page:

On another note, if there was a VE released of Batman done in the same vein as Spidey (hopefully with classic artwork like the attachment) I'd be totally in. Not because I love the game but because my fiancee loves classic Batman. Add in classic sounds from the TV show via Pinball Browser and it'd be a no-brainer.

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I can't believe how bold people are when hiding behind a computer screen. Bashing a guy that has literally donated hundreds upon hundreds of hours of his time to create a product that enriches the collecting and players world? Real nice way to say "Thank You," Pinside.

Nate, all of this noise is ridiculous. Your show rocks. I've enjoyed the ride since the beginning and can't wait to hear the next episode. Keep'm coming, keep the opinions coming, keep growing your friendships in the pinball world, and never set a game on 5 ball!

Thanks for all of your efforts and time, I absolutely dig the show!

Todd A

Nate, make sure to keep your bingos and EMs on 5 ball.

No, not Batman, TSPP.

Unfortunately there is nothing about this remake that screams must buy at the $6300ish price point. I was ready to buy along with 2 to 3 other local buyers, but sorry Nate there is nothing about this game that makes it a good buy over lets say Metallica Pro or any of the other Pro's released lately in the $4500 price point. It has nothing to do with what a SM sold for when it was new. I sold a very nice SM for 4k not that long ago (about a year ago). Had Stern given it a true premium upgrade, color changers, upgrade to spike system, better art....(ya I went there the Ultimate Spiderman art was the wrong direction) Heck even Mustang premium had color change inserts....then maybe it could have been a reasonable buy. There is nothing about this that makes people wanna call distributors non stop trying to get your order in. Maybe this is just a fill in the gap game for Stern but they lost some orders with the direction they went with this.

Oh yeah and the fact that it looks like the commercial version of "the pin" didn't help it any. lol

Used Iron Mans were selling for 6k+

IM vault sold for $4700

That argument gets thrown out the window.

If you're an avid C2C listener you'd know that Nate has made similar comments around pricing on several shows. Usually speaking to market demand versus production cost in terms of the guitar industry. His comments would've been the same whether or not the Pinball with the Pros show is a thing.

Unconscious bias is definitely real and a possibility for anyone, but this falls in line with what he's said in the past. Nothing to see here.

Never understand what the end game for comments like this is. Is it for him to stop taking money from Stern, thus killing the Pinball with the Pros show? Agitating him enough so he doesn't feel like doing the podcast?

Thanks for being the white knight riding in to save all us dummies from Nate's underhanded Stern marketing.

You people don't even know what "trolling" is, stop using it incorrectly. I forgot the demographic of this community... I forgive you for sucking at the Internet. :emoticon:

Nate does a fine podcast for the pinball community. I'm sure he's even a good person. This being said....
He's puts his "opinion" out, and it's fair to criticize him. That's how this world works.
Stern fucked up. He defended them. He's sponsored by them. It's only logical that people put that together. I would defend a company who helped me put on a show, invited me into their business, gave me "insider" access. Same with spooky pinball. You really think Nate is going to rake them over the coals for something bad(yet to see something negitive from spooky)?
So get off your soap box Nate, and I'll get off mine. Your opinion about people you rub elbows with isn't without major influence.. Stick to game strategy and tournament talk. END PERIOD LOL

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THIS. First, too all of you saying Nate is selling out, really, check yourself. This guy is giving more back to the hobby in one podcast than you do all year. Nate it's real simple. You work for a real company who's mission is to make profit. That's a concept that goes over some people's head here. They act is if Stern is in this for the love of pinball and not to make money. Money always comes first in business. All of the price whining is getting annoying. NIB is a hobby for well-to-do people. Some can't accept that. It's the new reality.

Guess what...its a pinball forum. If you can't handle a little debate about the newest release maybe you need a reality check.

Kaneda Is single handedly ruining this hobby for me. When I see his Avatar it's an instant buzzkill.

You know what, I've changed my mind. I hope Stern starts charging $10k for NIB vault editions soon and they cause their own crash (except this time by charging too much instead of not enough). That way companies like Spooky and Heighway pinball can swoop in and and do things right at the right price by keeping low overhead. Clearly a building 3 times the size is a glutton cow that needs to be fed, and the only way to do that is by increasing margins and selling overpriced accessories.

How many more do you think stern would have sold if they went with the McFarlane version of SM? I know for me and a few others it would have been a must buy.

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Why the fuck doesn't everyone just put him on ignore already? I did it ages ago, I never see his avatar, and I wouldn't know about his stupid car if you'd all just stop talking about it. Seriously, you can always reverse it, try it for a week, and see if your life isn't better for it.

If the art was killer, and not kiddie, I probably would have swallowed the higher price to get it.

Give me a proper Green Goblin too please, not this hulked out steroid using wannabe gargoyle reject.

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I thought it was an episode like any other: a well thought out commentary and opinion piece. People may not agree with Nate's conclusions but to accuse him of bias is drawing such a long bow as to be utterly nonsensical (putting aside the obvious troll comments). Did anyone hear his evisceration of the GOT artwork - made AFTER the 'sponsorship' deal was done? It's a Clayton's sponsorship anyway - modest amounts of money that go to the players for their time and effort - not to Nate.
I find it hilarious how people who live in free market economies whinge about prices. Do you need a demand-supply curve drawn for you?

I agree on the Green Goblin.
Whatever that thing is on the pin sucks.
But I'm sure there are a ton of sculpted goblin figures out there to replace it

People have opinions, and about spending money, on pinballs! Hilarious!

Good lord, I swear the worst part of Pinside now is the people whining about people whining. At least if you're complaining about the price you're talking pinball. When you're complaining about the complainers you're just a nanny.

Here's a topic for you Nate: does complaining on the internet actually accomplish anything for pinball? PM me and I'll give you my off the record reasons why it does. There are plenty of easy ones that are publicly known though, like the Hobbit playfield being updated because we spoke up.

I enjoy listening to coast 2 coast pinball! Keep them coming!

You are.

I don't know why the guy who's mad at you wants you to stick to strategy and competition, you admit you don't even know how to play pinball!

Here you go ... pre-viewing reading:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/draft-mustang-rules-set-check-em-out

Updated 12-31-15

Actually Mustang is currently unusable in any major tournament due to a major bug smassa found.

Still a fun game and 10x more reliable then GoT has been.

So if you're complaining about those who complain about the complainers what does that make you?

Nate, great show. Always enjoyable to hear your honest opinions, thanks.

A super nanny? Mary Poppins?

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Nate I really enjoy your show, you are an asset to this small community! Thanks for all you do.

I disagree with a lot of what Nate has to say. I think he's too harsh on people who question the value proposition being put forth by Stern.
What Nate's missing is two things: First, I think he's downplaying the mixed reaction the art has received. While comic book themes are popular, I would wager that the target audience, being closer to middle age, has little to no connection with the Ultimate style of art. People on the thread are saying he looks anorexic or that his features are exaggerated. Also, the fact that the hand drawn art so closely mimics the original movie-style art kind of puts paid to any idea of more creativity being fostered. Second, his comparison to Iron Man was way too dismissive. Yeah, Iron Man was a bit bare bones, but I struggle to think that Spider-Man VE at $7595 is a good price next to Iron Man VE at $5495. Do I think SMVE is better equipped? Yes. $2100 better? No. Even with distributor discounting, that difference won't change much.

On the other hand, the people upset about the price are missing a couple things themselves. Though the playfield and ramps were set, it still required a brand new art package, as well as new dots and toys. Someone had to design them, so the value for that is not zero, as someone alluded to earlier. That's unrealistic and insulting. That goes back to a previous episode where Nate said that people somehow don't think that artistic jobs are worth nothing if you aren't Picasso or Taylor Swift. The other part was an assumption being made by Pinside that all VEs would be at or slightly above IMVE's level. At no point in time did Stern say that was going to be the case. In fact, I think that would have been a mistake. Like Nate, I'm expecting the mix for VEs to be geared more toward homeowners who haven't owned it before. If they run it once or twice for around 700-800 units, I think that would be the sweet spot. The main point of his I agree with is that if this price proves to be too high, SMVE will sit. We've seen this happen with Transformers. We've seen this happen with Avengers. I just don't think people like rooting against pinball, even if it's Stern, because people understand that the next time pinball goes down, it might not get back up again. What I think is burbling underneath this is the realization that if we were to get Tron, Lord of the Rings or some other vaunted title as a Vault Edition, it would be a similar price or higher. There's no way Simpsons' Pinball Party comes back for less than $7000. Not if Spider-Man's $7500.

I'm not really surprised by the reaction, though. Between his new sponsorship and his general industry cheerleading, Nate opens himself up to criticism that he's a Pollyanna or a shill. I have been listening since the single-digit episodes, and I don't believe either to be the case. I think he's been a lot more measured, even going as far back as the Pinball Gremlins fiasco a year and a half ago with the old format. The only real dislike I have of the show is that at times, he comes across less as a fan, and more as an industry mouthpiece. I understand that he's a salesman, and he works with numbers. He's trying to be a dispassionate voice of reason, but when he does one of his "explainer" speeches or Math with Nate, he often comes across as very condescending. This latest one, especially so.

You know, the show has changed a lot, but it's still one man's opinion. (occasionally his wife's opinion, too) We can disagree without being quite so disagreeable.

This was my feeling as well after listening. What's hard is that it felt genuinely mean spirited, and that was something I wasn't expecting from Nate. Kind of like a "I'm right and you're wrong" sort of thing. Not the kind of tone I want in future episodes.

That being said, Nate puts a few valid arguments on the table, but it definitely feels like he's intentionally avoiding any possible arguments AGAINST a price increase. I was sort of expecting to see SMVE at around $5.5-5.8k (from your favorite retailer). I'm assuming the game will change hands at ~$6.5-6.8k instead, which really does feel too high. The justification that Nate presents (new art, dots, toys, new factory, operating costs, etc) are fair arguments for a price hike, sure. But it just feels like he's overlooking how MUCH of an increase is really there and trying to say that Stern can do no wrong with this decision.

E: Having said that, as Nate said, nobody but Stern has the books. Only they know what sort of MSRP needs to be attached to the game in order to see the profits they want to see. So I'm not even really bagging on Stern for their price decision, simply musing out loud about my thoughts on the price point.

With the recent developments regarding Stern's sponsorship of Nate's new show, I can see why people think what they do. I don't necessarily think that, but I was surprised that Nate had ZERO "cons" with the whole thing. Hell, he even brought up the fact that they are providing the standard Stern legs and didn't seem to blink an eye at it (instead saying that collectors will basically pony up the cash and do it themselves). For a game priced in the Premium range, I would have liked to see some additional Premium features to justify the cost.

But this isn't a discussion about SMVE - it's a discussion about C2C. I still love the show and will continue to listen to every new episode immediately. I'll still wear my shirt around and talk pinball with people. But this was a very interesting take on the current situation, and I'm eager to see where things go from here. Keep up the good work Nate!

I upvoted for this. This, to me, is the bottom line. Forget old prices from 2008 or whatever. Stern set the value proposition with Iron Man VE, and it's the point of reference for me.

I think SM is worth more than IM. And the new art etc isn't free.

But let's be honest about what we're talking about here. The new art is all taken from a Marvel library, none of it was drawn for the pin. And it's mostly a 1 replacement. Not saying it wasn't work, but I could have knocked it all out in a week, and the bulk of it over a weekend. It's just not that hard when you have an existing layout to follow and assets to drop in.

Voice work isn't expensive when it's not someone famous.

Not downplaying the work, it was there, but so was all the work that was done already. Like designing and engineering and coding a full game. The hard part was done already. It was just a reskin. And not to a new theme, it's swap one Spidey for another, not even Family Guy to Shrek.

Stern's business, they set their prices, and we can only armchair quarterback. But the value wasn't there for me with new school kiddie Spider-Man art, no new technology, not even Spike with properly fading and blooming LEDs. Definitely old DMD, no RGB lights, none of the real upgrades new games can offer.

Wasn't a $2k difference.