(Topic ID: 231876)

New Buyer: Music77 Anyone sold to him?


By Dallas_Pin

4 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 70 posts
  • 35 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 47 days ago by Dallas_Pin
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 4 months ago

    Have a new buyer (Music77) inquiring to buy my game. He's new to Pinside (10/30) with 0 posts. Said he's bought other machines from Pinsiders and used Michelle @ STI to ship. He's the 'middle man' between me and his client in Japan. Wanted to do payment via PayPal or Bank Wire. I said no to PP and asked him if the BankWire was coming from a bank in the US. He said it was an international bank; I told him I would only accept a bank wire from a US Bank, he said okay and that his client would wire him the money, then I would get the money. Something feels off, so I did due diligence and read Vids Guide to Selling Pinball today. Music77 texted today and sent the BankWire form, but I declined and told the man let's do Escrow.Com. Have not heard back. I don't want to slam him if he's on the up-and-up, but something feels wrong with this deal. If he accepts Escrow. Com, great. If not, other sellers may want to research before selling.

    #2 4 months ago

    I call BS

    #3 4 months ago

    If you get paid via Bank Transfer from a US Bank I was told by the bank it’s as good as someone handing you cash - final and not reversible. Ask your bank and see what they say.

    #4 4 months ago

    If something doesn't feel right, move on.

    #5 4 months ago
    Quoted from ScottinSGFNY:

    If you get paid via Bank Transfer from a US Bank I was told by the bank it’s as good as someone handing you cash - final and not reversible. Ask your bank and see what they say.

    I was going to call them, but once I asked to set up an Escrow account, he went silent. Based on what I read from Vids guide, if it's a BankWire from a Credit Card check (like CitiBank) they can dispute the check, just like a charge (I didn't know that). If he doesn't want an escrow, then I'm done. I hope he's not trying to get one over on other sellers.

    #6 4 months ago

    Maybe bank Transfer and bank wire are 2 different terms? I know I have to personally go to the bank and have available funds to do a bank transfer. I have to fill out a form with info and show ID and then the bank representative moves it from my account to where I specify. Escrow to me wouldn’t be an option as there are fees and you have to get the machine to the escrow agent so extra shipping involved.

    #7 4 months ago
    Quoted from Dallas_Pin:

    Have a new buyer (Music77) inquiring to buy my game. He's new to Pinside (10/30) with 0 posts. Said he's bought other machines from Pinsiders and used Michelle @ STI to ship. He's the 'middle man' between me and his client in Japan. Wanted to do payment via PayPal or Bank Wire. I said no to PP and asked him if the BankWire was coming from a bank in the US. He said it was an international bank; I told him I would only accept a bank wire from a US Bank, he said okay and that his client would wire him the money, then I would get the money. Something feels off, so I did due diligence and read Vids Guide to Selling Pinball today. Music77 texted today and sent the BankWire form, but I declined and told the man let's do Escrow.Com. Have not heard back. I don't want to slam him if he's on the up-and-up, but something feels wrong with this deal. If he accepts Escrow. Com, great. If not, other sellers may want to research before selling.

    Scam...

    Rob

    11
    #8 4 months ago
    Quoted from lancestorm:

    If something doesn't feel right, move on.

    Absolutely. No deal is always better than a bad deal.

    LTG : )

    #9 4 months ago

    Cash is king

    17
    #10 4 months ago

    As soon as he mentioned he was middle man bw his client in Japan I would have said goodbye.

    DEF walk away from that

    #11 4 months ago

    ‘Tis the season... for scamming, that is.

    #12 4 months ago
    Quoted from lancestorm:

    If something doesn't feel right, move on.

    I agree. Plenty of other potential buyers. If you don’t feel comfortable or feel uneasy about a deal, don’t do it.

    #13 4 months ago

    I would not do this deal. Anytime there is a long winded story my bs radar goes off.

    #14 4 months ago

    Run Forest Run!

    #15 4 months ago

    Thanks fellow DFW area Pinhead!!

    #16 4 months ago

    Middleman for a foreign buyer is a giant red flag.

    #17 4 months ago

    His client wires him the money and he brings you cash. Done. Otherwise not worth risk to you.

    #19 4 months ago

    No posts but now is into international brokering? Not good.

    CEC9ACD8-A684-4196-9E3B-F4DEB06429F5 (resized).png
    #20 4 months ago
    Quoted from Phat_Jay:

    No posts but now is into international brokering? Not good

    He stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night

    #21 4 months ago
    Quoted from Dallas_Pin:

    He stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night

    That explains it.

    #22 4 months ago
    Quoted from Dallas_Pin:

    He's the 'middle man' between me and his client in Japan.

    Yeah ahhh no thanks. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck its not a f-ing fish. Good on you for asking but it sounds like you figured out this was a scam before you posted. Better to be safe than sorry.

    #23 4 months ago

    And just like that ... Music77 has disappeared from Pinside.

    #24 4 months ago

    We froze the account temporarily, as we always do in cases where there's suspicion of fraud.

    However, after a bit of investigation, we found no indication that this Pinsider is a scammer. The Paypal account/IP address and references all check out. As such, we have unfrozen the account. As far as we're concerned the person is legit.

    Use this information however you like but PLEASE always be careful and do your own due diligence when buying or selling games online, through Pinside or any site. Check out Vids guide here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-not-get-ripped-off-in-pinball-vids-guide

    #25 4 months ago

    Thanks Robin for checking it out; was looking out for myself and fellow Pinsiders.

    #26 3 months ago

    Robin, thank you for clearing this up. Dallas pin, I tried to be as transparent as possible with you from the beginning to avoid any confusion later. I gave you my personal number, we spoke and during that conversation I let you know that I was flexible as far as method of payment. When you text me and asked which bank the transfer would come from I immediately replied Citibank. You did not respond until close to three hours later with a link to an escrow service that you wanted to use. If we are in the middle of a conversation I’m going to respond in that moment, but if a text comes in randomly I may not be aware of it and can’t always respond immediately.
    I did answer your text a couple of hours later, let you know that I was checking out the escrow service and that they required your email address for me to proceed with setting up the transaction. Maybe another two hours later you responded with your email address. I also had to take a quick basic look at the escrow service for our own protection. I gave you the name of another pinside member who we recently had a successful transaction with for you to contact as a reference, understanding that I’m relatively new to this site. From what I understand when he told you that he received a bank transfer without any problems, instead of accepting the positive you tried to make him feel that there was foul play involved and that we may somehow try to get the money that he already received back?

    I mentioned to Robin earlier that there is good reason to exercise caution with many things we may encounter daily, however it’s wrong to make disparaging claims without actual cause. What bothers me about this is that you started a forum thread with very negative suggestions and caused our account to be suspended without giving any amount of reasonable time for communication or resolution. Also, knowing that I responded to you letting you know I was taking steps to proceed with the payment method that you suggested, and that I gave you the name of another long-standing pinside member for reference, why didn’t you amend your previous statements in this thread? That doesn’t seem right to me. Being cautious is very reasonable, making unfounded claims is not. I have read that when someone suggest using a specific escrow service for a transaction it can be an indication of an attempt at fraud. When you didn’t immediately respond to me I didn’t start a forum thread bringing your character into question just because it’s possible. I answered your questions, gave you a solid reference and made it fairly clear that I was willing to provide more information if necessary, so this was all a little odd to me. On a side note, you stated that I spent the the night at a Holiday Inn Express, what? Where did that even come from? I definitely didn’t and definitely didn’t say that. Hopefully Robins response and this has helped to clear the air.

    We will still be in the market for Pins and brokering deals. The main buyer is a very reputable person and has a great amount of respect and appreciation for the machines he purchases. They will be going to a good home. We understand caution, and hopefully we can move forward and develop a solid reputation here.

    #27 3 months ago
    Quoted from Music77:

    On a side note, you stated that I spent the the night at a Holiday Inn Express, what? Where did that even come from?

    Dude, that was a highly successful ad campaign from a TV commercial. A harmless joke. Does nobody remember that ad campaign?

    #28 3 months ago
    Quoted from Music77:

    On a side note, you stated that I spent the the night at a Holiday Inn Express, what? Where did that even come from? I definitely didn’t and definitely didn’t say that. .

    It's a dumb advertising joke/tagline like "dilly dilly" and "priceless" that Americans - so devoid of creativity and culture - repeat mindlessly to get chuckles. And it works. Over and over again. Until people finally get sick of it and move on to the next one.

    See "where's the beef" for reference.

    #29 3 months ago

    Lol, ok I was lost on that one. I’m all in for a good joke, but I guess I forgot about that campaign.

    #31 3 months ago

    So after the potential buyer finally responded my suggestion is...... the same.

    I would walk away asap from anyone asking why you accused them of staying at a Holiday Inn.

    I like to also remind pinside to consider restricting brand new members from posting sale ads. Would avoid so many scammers and yes I would be willing to sacrifice the 1 out of 20 that is doing it honestly to restrict the 19.

    Thanks!

    #32 3 months ago

    Well If someone tried to broker a deal for someone else and a customer in Japan or any foreign country, and had no posts on here, I would just walk away. wouldn't start a thread but would just kindly decline the deal. I have to say it sure sounded like a scam to me! Too many scammers out there have ruined things for many honest people. It's not right but it's just the way it is...

    #33 3 months ago
    Quoted from homebrood:

    Well If someone tried to broker a deal for someone else and a customer in Japan or any foreign country, and had no posts on here, I would just walk away. wouldn't start a thread but would just kindly decline the deal. I have to say it sure sounded like a scam to me! Too many scammers out there have ruined things for many honest people. It's not right but it's just the way it is...

    And if someone asked me to do escrow.com or started asking for pinsider references, I'd walk away.

    It's a miracle deals ever get made around here yet it does happen!

    #34 3 months ago
    Quoted from Music77:

    What bothers me about this is that you started a forum thread with very negative suggestions and caused our account to be suspended without giving any amount of reasonable time for communication or resolution.

    The OP did the right thing by starting the thread and alerting the moderation team. It fit one of the typical patterns for scams exactly.

    Quoted from Music77:

    I answered your questions, gave you a solid reference

    A reference from deal that was just made a few days prior doesn't really count. There was still plenty of time for a scammer to potentially reverse or bounce a payment since the time for a payment to fully clear through a bank is much longer than that.

    #35 3 months ago

    Go Old School. Accept a personal check. Your bank can call the bank the check is written against to see if the money is there.

    Once the check clears then deliver product.

    If other party is too busy to wait a couple days, then say goodbye

    #36 3 months ago

    @ Delta 31 I didn’t respond initially because my account had been frozen, and even if it wasn’t I don’t receive phone notifications from pinside. Pinside is a nice site,but I’m not randomly checking it throughout the day without reason. I wasn’t aware the account was suspended until someone I had previously dealt with informed me. Yes I’m guilty of forgetting about a Holiday Inn commercial.

    #37 3 months ago

    Seems like your posting this to begin with, you already know what you should do. Or don’t do. Sell it at TPF in March.

    #38 3 months ago

    homebrood I pretty much agree with this. If you truly feel uncomfortable with a situation then walk away, I would. But don’t start a thread basically accusing someone of something wrong when nothing wrong has transpired. I’m cautious myself and anything is possible anytime you deal with someone you don’t know, but you can’t accuse people over possibilities.

    #39 3 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    The OP did the right thing by starting the thread and alerting the moderation team. It fit one of the typical patterns for scams exactly.

    A reference from deal that was just made a few days prior doesn't really count. There was still plenty of time for a scammer to potentially reverse or bounce a payment since the time for a payment to fully clear through a bank is much longer than that.

    Two things, we wouldn’t have in anyway expected him to release the machine until payment cleared. I told him that in our phone conversation and we agreed to use his chosen method of payment after that. We actually wouldn’t have had a problem waiting a couple of weeks after he received the funds to ship the Pin

    #40 3 months ago
    Quoted from homebrood:

    Well If someone tried to broker a deal for someone else and a customer in Japan or any foreign country, and had no posts on here, I would just walk away. wouldn't start a thread but would just kindly decline the deal. I have to say it sure sounded like a scam to me! Too many scammers out there have ruined things for many honest people. It's not right but it's just the way it is...

    BTW I see you’re in Glenview. I live in Lisle right next to Naperville.

    #41 3 months ago
    Quoted from homebrood:

    Well If someone tried to broker a deal for someone else and a customer in Japan or any foreign country, and had no posts on here, I would just walk away. wouldn't start a thread but would just kindly decline the deal. I have to say it sure sounded like a scam to me! Too many scammers out there have ruined things for many honest people. It's not right but it's just the way it is...

    Yes, I do agree about declining if you truly feel uncomfortable, but obviously not about declining just because the destination is outside of the US. The only thing non domestic about the deal would have been where it was ultimately shipped to. Everything else as far as the seller is concerned would have been completely handled in the states using
    US institutions. So while mentioning an international destination may make people think of some other type of scam. What we we’re offering is basically the same as any other US transaction that requires shipping, unless someone just has a hang up about their machine ever leaving the United States.

    #42 3 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    And if someone asked me to do escrow.com or started asking for pinsider references, I'd walk away.
    It's a miracle deals ever get made around here yet it does happen!

    Thanks, we definitely tried to be accommodating and provide whatever information was necessary to ease any doubts.

    #43 3 months ago

    I have to say that in general, any transaction that includes being the middle man for an international buyer is 99.9% of the time a scam. In this case, it seems like that's not the case, but you can't blame the OP for being a bit suspicious.

    What I'm not understanding at this point is why you wouldn't just buy the game yourself, directly from the seller, and leave your "international buyer" out of the mix? Buy the game, have it shipped to you (or shipped to your buyer directly) and be done with it. Perhaps that's what you were planning to do, but in any case it seemed like adding the international buyer to the mix just made it seem like it was a potential scam.

    I've sold games to folks that were not local to me and you always have that "uneasy" feeling, regardless of whether you've talked on the phone, etc. There is ALWAYS the chance that whatever method they used to pay you (assuming it wasn't cash), there might be a way for them to get your game and get their money back. Ultimately, at some point, you have to trust people, but there are certain things that make your radar go off and having a new user to the site and who is a "middle man" for a foreign buyer (I'm sure there's a reason why he can't find and buy the games himself) are definitely high on the potential scam meter.

    I know you mentioned buying a game recently from another pinsider, but it's easy enough to set up a fake pinside account and claim you bought a game from them. Then, when the next guy comes along and you say "check with Pinsider XXX" and they send a message, it's actually you responding that "Music77 is legit and a good dude to boot". It's a sad state that we're in where we've learned to assume the worst in people but experience has shown us that in many cases, it's true.

    #44 3 months ago
    Quoted from egyptrus:

    What I'm not understanding at this point is why you wouldn't just buy the game yourself, directly from the seller, and leave your "international buyer" out of the mix? Buy the game, have it shipped to you (or shipped to your buyer directly) and be done with it. Perhaps that's what you were planning to do, but in any case it seemed like adding the international buyer to the mix just made it seem like it was a potential scam.

    Now that makes sense.

    #45 3 months ago

    Cash on the glass isnt just a cool saying , It's the way to sell without any stress. I think the OP acted like anyone of us would and actually alot of us including myself would have passed right away and not even let it get this far.

    #46 3 months ago
    Quoted from egyptrus:

    I have to say that in general, any transaction that includes being the middle man for an international buyer is 99.9% of the time a scam. In this case, it seems like that's not the case, but you can't blame the OP for being a bit suspicious.
    What I'm not understanding at this point is why you wouldn't just buy the game yourself, directly from the seller, and leave your "international buyer" out of the mix? Buy the game, have it shipped to you (or shipped to your buyer directly) and be done with it. Perhaps that's what you were planning to do, but in any case it seemed like adding the international buyer to the mix just made it seem like it was a potential scam.
    I've sold games to folks that were not local to me and you always have that "uneasy" feeling, regardless of whether you've talked on the phone, etc. There is ALWAYS the chance that whatever method they used to pay you (assuming it wasn't cash), there might be a way for them to get your game and get their money back. Ultimately, at some point, you have to trust people, but there are certain things that make your radar go off and having a new user to the site and who is a "middle man" for a foreign buyer (I'm sure there's a reason why he can't find and buy the games himself) are definitely high on the potential scam meter.
    I know you mentioned buying a game recently from another pinsider, but it's easy enough to set up a fake pinside account and claim you bought a game from them. Then, when the next guy comes along and you say "check with Pinsider XXX" and they send a message, it's actually you responding that "Music77 is legit and a good dude to boot". It's a sad state that we're in where we've learned to assume the worst in people but experience has shown us that in many cases, it's true.

    I understand some of your points, and completely understand wanting to protect yourself in a transaction. In retrospect I somewhat wish I had left the international aspect out of the negotiation. You are correct, essentially as far as the seller is concerned this and others are domestic deals. We have handled deals where the final destination was never mentioned and everyone was happy as the money was transferred from our account in the US. I think some of it is just part of my personality, wanting to be clear upfront and not wanting anyone one to feel that I was being misleading if it happens to comes out later in the process. Maybe there’s a little irony in the fact that confusion and accusations occurred as a result of trying to be straight forward.

    As I’m sure you know a majority of people in the pinball community are very partial to shipping with STI. They do a good job with domestic shipping. I wish they did international as well. Our main buyer is a good guy, serious about the machines he purchases and for international shipping needs them prepped for shipment slightly different than the way STI preps the Pins for domestic shipments. Some people are very stuck in their ways and when I ask them to pre prep the machine in a different way before STI or an alternate carrier picks up it can be met with push back and resistance. So it can occasionally get to a point where it becomes increasingly hard to avoid telling them why we need the Pins prepped this way, because they’re 100% dedicated to the way they normally do it. If I was making the purchases for myself I would likely let them know that this is what I’m comfortable with and if it’s a huge problem I can continue my search, no harm no foul. However my job in these situations is to do everything possible to facilitate the deal. If the destination comes up after the deal is basically done, they’ve already received payment and we’re just getting shipping arrangements straightened out they don’t generally have much of an issue. The seller usually doesn’t even really say much about it at that point, but you can can feel a little bit of that wow you didn’t tell me it was going international before. So yes at times it hasn’t been mentioned at all or not until later because for the sellers it actually is a domestic deal, but with this seller we were initially talking on the phone not texting, the rapport seemed decent so I just thought I would get it out the way upfront. Apparently that was a mistake.

    As far as creating fake profiles, it does seem like it would be fairly easy to do. When you think about it, as a newer member with no real equity built up in our profile, if we were scammers why wouldn’t we just cut the line when we were under scrutiny and move on to a new profile? It would be much easier to abandon this one and move on than to stick with it and explain. We are also putting a decent amount of trust in the sellers in these situations.

    #47 3 months ago

    You're definitely starting to build trust by continuing to post here, that's for sure. As you said, most scammers would have run away once they figured out that people were on to them.

    It sounds like you've bought a few games and had them shipped to your international buyer. From your response, which uses the word "we" and "our" quite a bit, I'm lead to believe that you're either a business that helps international buyers find games, or you've got a pretty good relationship with your buyer. Frankly, it's none of my business, but it does make me wonder why you don't just have the games shipped to you and then prep them for international shipment. I realize doing that would require paying two shipping costs, but it seems like it would avoid all kinds of misunderstanding and heartache as the deal would be totally transparent and you'd get the games prepped to your standard, which it sounds like most others are either unwilling or unable to do.

    Ultimately, once I sell a game, I don't really care what you do with it. It's yours, you bought it. If you want to send it overseas, that's your choice. If you want to set it on fire, that's your choice (I really wouldn't want you to do that and I'd definitely think you'd lost your mind).

    As far as creating multiple accounts, Robin (the website's founder/owner) actually has fairly sophisticated systems fro stopping people from doing what I mentioned (creating multiple accounts) in order to combat potential scamming/fraud.

    At the end of the day, folks jumped to conclusions because many of the typical flags were present; new account, "odd" situation with being the middleman for an international buyer, suggesting a wire transfer for payment, etc. As it happens, it looks like you're the .1% that's actually legit. Hopefully, you'll be able to guy the games that your buyer wants and you'll have a long history here on Pinside.

    #48 3 months ago

    music77: a bit off topic but....what pin is the Japanese guy trying to buy?

    #49 3 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    And if someone asked me to do escrow.com or started asking for pinsider references, I'd walk away.
    It's a miracle deals ever get made around here yet it does happen!

    You would really walk away?
    Just curious here.

    I'm a bit salty. Ive been scammed recently. If i get any deals done that require shipping, i would definitely use escrow.com

    #50 3 months ago
    Quoted from egyptrus:

    You're definitely starting to build trust by continuing to post here, that's for sure. As you said, most scammers would have run away once they figured out that people were on to them.
    It sounds like you've bought a few games and had them shipped to your international buyer. From your response, which uses the word "we" and "our" quite a bit, I'm lead to believe that you're either a business that helps international buyers find games, or you've got a pretty good relationship with your buyer. Frankly, it's none of my business, but it does make me wonder why you don't just have the games shipped to you and then prep them for international shipment. I realize doing that would require paying two shipping costs, but it seems like it would avoid all kinds of misunderstanding and heartache as the deal would be totally transparent and you'd get the games prepped to your standard, which it sounds like most others are either unwilling or unable to do.
    Ultimately, once I sell a game, I don't really care what you do with it. It's yours, you bought it. If you want to send it overseas, that's your choice. If you want to set it on fire, that's your choice (I really wouldn't want you to do that and I'd definitely think you'd lost your mind).
    As far as creating multiple accounts, Robin (the website's founder/owner) actually has fairly sophisticated systems fro stopping people from doing what I mentioned (creating multiple accounts) in order to combat potential scamming/fraud.
    At the end of the day, folks jumped to conclusions because many of the typical flags were present; new account, "odd" situation with being the middleman for an international buyer, suggesting a wire transfer for payment, etc. As it happens, it looks like you're the .1% that's actually legit. Hopefully, you'll be able to guy the games that your buyer wants and you'll have a long history here on Pinside.

    Thank you, I appreciate your response. Having the games shipped to us first is something that’s on the table for the near future, but your right at the moment it’s overall more cost effective and convenient for us to do it this way. Although clearly not without headaches. “If you want to set it on fire, that’s your choice” Lol, I needed that laugh. Thanks again for the kind words.

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