(Topic ID: 233255)

New Black Knight owner-- ISO troubleshooting advice

By Mcchris

5 years ago


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  • 16 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by northvibe
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 5 years ago

Hi. I'm a new Black knight owner in the middle of a semi restore. The game has been in my family for about the last 18 years. It was purchased from an arcade shop and stayed in my parents basement until about 5 years ago when my brother took it and now I have it. It's only every been serviced by the shop it was purchased from but I think that's all of 2 or 3 fixes, not maintenance. So basically it hasn't been hacked up.

I took most of the playfield apart to give it a good cleaning and polishing, replaced all rubbers and polished all ramp metals. I replaced all of the lights with LEDs, replaced all of the fuses in the game with the appropriate fuses. The game turned right on, when right into attract and played fine with the exception of the upper right flipper that seemed to bind in the coil.

I decided to just rebuild all 4 flippers and then had to replace the 2 upper flipper coils as well. I added the new coils in wire by wire with the old coil hanging to make sure I wired them in correctly. Everything seemed to be working just fine. I followed VIDs guides here and also adjusted all EOS switches.

Now after playing the game I'm noticing some peculiar behavior, the flippers get weaker as you play and after about 2 games, the right magnet stops working, all other switches and drop targets, pop bumper, sounds, scoring and everything works just fine. It almost seems to me that the game isn't quite getting enough power consistently. If I turn the game off and let it sit for an hour, come back, everything works, flippers are decently strong, not quite as strong as I think they should be, but the magnet works again.

I've purchased a cap kit for the power supply but haven't installed yet, I don't trust my soldering skills quite enough yet, My father-in-law is gonna do the board work for me. If everything is working, would it help? I was going to start with replacing cabinet flipper switches but when the magnet issue popped up I thought maybe something else was awry.

Any thoughts on where to look next?

#2 5 years ago

If things get stronger or weaker over time capacitors are always the first suspect.

#3 5 years ago
Quoted from Mcchris:

Hi. I'm a new Black knight owner in the middle of a semi restore. The game has been in my family for about the last 18 years. It was purchased from an arcade shop and stayed in my parents basement until about 5 years ago when my brother took it and now I have it. It's only every been serviced by the shop it was purchased from but I think that's all of 2 or 3 fixes, not maintenance. So basically it hasn't been hacked up.
I took most of the playfield apart to give it a good cleaning and polishing, replaced all rubbers and polished all ramp metals. I replaced all of the lights with LEDs, replaced all of the fuses in the game with the appropriate fuses. The game turned right on, when right into attract and played fine with the exception of the upper right flipper that seemed to bind in the coil.
I decided to just rebuild all 4 flippers and then had to replace the 2 upper flipper coils as well. I added the new coils in wire by wire with the old coil hanging to make sure I wired them in correctly. Everything seemed to be working just fine. I followed VIDs guides here and also adjusted all EOS switches.
Now after playing the game I'm noticing some peculiar behavior, the flippers get weaker as you play and after about 2 games, the right magnet stops working, all other switches and drop targets, pop bumper, sounds, scoring and everything works just fine. It almost seems to me that the game isn't quite getting enough power consistently. If I turn the game off and let it sit for an hour, come back, everything works, flippers are decently strong, not quite as strong as I think they should be, but the magnet works again.
I've purchased a cap kit for the power supply but haven't installed yet, I don't trust my soldering skills quite enough yet, My father-in-law is gonna do the board work for me. If everything is working, would it help? I was going to start with replacing cabinet flipper switches but when the magnet issue popped up I thought maybe something else was awry.
Any thoughts on where to look next?

If the EOS isn't opening at full flipper stroke, the high power coil will stay energized, overheating the coil making things bind up. Next time your flippers get weak, turn off the game, raise the PF and feel the flipper coils to see if they are hot. Adjust the EOS so it is gaped 1/16" at full stroke. Do not measure by pushing the flipper bat, but by pushing on the pawl into the coil.

#4 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

If the EOS isn't opening at full flipper stroke, the high power coil will stay energized, overheating the coil making things bind up. Next time your flippers get weak, turn off the game, raise the PF and feel the flipper coils to see if they are hot. Adjust the EOS so it is gaped 1/16" at full stroke. Do not measure by pushing the flipper bat, but by pushing on the pawl into the coil.

I've never played an 80s Williams where the flippers didn't get hot after a while

3 weeks later
#5 5 years ago

Okay, at a bit of a loss now. I've done the following:

Replaced every fuse in the game
leveled the game, set to 6 degrees
rebuilt all 4 flippers
replaced 2 upper coils, lowers were not original and sleeve came out easily so they should be in good shape
replaced cabinet flipper switches
adjusted eos switch several times trying to find sweet spot
re-capped power supply

both right side flippers are weak, bottom right flipper is not strong enough to push ball up left side ramp. top is playable but obviously doesnt need significant power since its a small area. If i hold my finger in front of left flippers, they throw my finger out of the way, If i do the same for the right, they stop on my finger.

Is there anywhere else on any of the boards that would control both right side flippers or are they all on one or controlled separately? Anywhere else to look or should I just try replacing the bottom right coil?

Thanks

#6 5 years ago

There's a separate pin on 2j12 going through a separate contact on the flipper relay and down through the playfield connector for each side's flippers.

#7 5 years ago

Are the eos switches new as well? Have you filed the new cabinet and eos switches? I find new switches may need a little filing to get them working properly. How are the eos switches currently gapped on the flippers?

Also, do the eos switch leaves have some amount of tension against each other when the switch is closed? They shouldn't *just* be touching, but they don't have to have strong tension either. You just want to make sure the other switch leaf bends back a bit when the switch closes, giving a bit of a wiping motion.

One other idea: when you replaced the cabinet switches, are they adjusted in a way that fires the upper and lower flippers at the exact same time? Or do the lower ones activate first, then the uppers? It can be in very quick succession, I'm just thinking you don't want all 4 flippers firing at the *exact* same time. Let the first switch close before the second one, even if the difference isn't noticeable in gameplay (and really it probably won't be noticeable anyway)...Honestly, that may not really make any difference here, but if nothing else works it may be worth taking a look.

Beyond that, I've had 2 Black Knight's that saw significant improvement in flipper strength after replacing the male pins and female connector at 3J3 (flipper power and +38vdc for the playfield solenoids) on the power supply board and also 2J12 (flipper ground) on the driver board, the connector zacaj mentioned above. I know re-flowing the solder on the pins often suffices with connector problems, but this was a case where the pins got kind of dull and were creating resistance, which ultimately led to weaker flippers. Only by replacing the male connector pins and female connector pins & housings did i finally get them at a strength i think is suited to the game. (After doing many of the things you're doing/have done so far)

Post a couple pics of the flipper mechs if you like and we can see if maybe getting a few more sets of eyeballs on the matter helps along the solution.

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

I find new switches may need a little filing to get them working properly.

New eos often have a protective coating on them. File or use alcohol, etc to remove it. You'll see the resistance over the contacts drop.

#9 5 years ago

it’s probably a high resistance connection somewhere in the right flipper wiring limiting the current. Check connectors and don’t forget the relay. Also check for burned pins on the boards and reflow the solder on all pins in the flipper circuit.

Don_C

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

There's a separate pin on 2j12 going through a separate contact on the flipper relay and down through the playfield connector for each side's flippers.

any chance you have any pics or diagrams that show where this is? Sorry very much a noob on this.

thanks for all of the suggestions, I haven't filed any of the new switches. All EOS switches are new as well, with a slight tension opening to 1/8 inch at eos. I guess I feel if this were the issue, all flippers would be weak. I have to track down the flipper circuit. Any diagrams here would be a huge help

#11 5 years ago

My right set of flippers stopped working when putting the pf’s back in.

The connector at the power board to the flippers was having bad connections to the pins.

I tested continuity of the hardness from the connector to the flippers and magnets. Then repinned the whole connector.

Maybe not the same issue, but you’ll also want to verify the ground strap, continuity and power for the flippers and magnets.

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from Mcchris:

any chance you have any pics or diagrams that show where this is? Sorry very much a noob on this.
thanks for all of the suggestions, I haven't filed any of the new switches. All EOS switches are new as well, with a slight tension opening to 1/8 inch at eos. I guess I feel if this were the issue, all flippers would be weak. I have to track down the flipper circuit. Any diagrams here would be a huge help

You can file any high voltage switches like EOS switches but don't file any low voltage contact switches. Just clean with strips of cut up business card dipped in alcohol.

#13 5 years ago
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#14 5 years ago

zacaj,

Thank you so much. I took out the powers supply again along with the driver board. It does appear that line 1 on 2j12 has a cold solder joint. My guess is it's getting enough contact to work but not enough to supply enough power. I've ordered replacement headers and connectors for 2J12 and 3J3. I'm going to switch to Molex connectors with Trifurcon leads. By the looks of things, I'm also gonna reflow some solder on the driver board for the other connectors. I don't think the pins or connectors need replacing on the whole board at this point since everything else is working. I'll post my results when I can get the work done.

Thanks again

#15 5 years ago

I'd reflow every header pin on any board you take out of the machine. System 7s seems to always have bad solder joints.

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I'd reflow every header pin on any board you take out of the machine. System 7s seems to always have bad solder joints.

And I’d check all the connectors pins inside to see if they are going to make good connections. I had two connectors that had to be upgraded to molex as the pins inside were bent or literally not making a connection.

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