Keep trying! But I'd say your experience is not just for pinball - I've had the same non-communication issues with just about everything from cars to getting bids for contractors (I can't believe how many people don't want my money!).

When buying, don't hesitate, contact the buyer and make your way over there and try to do research on the way. At the beginning that is difficult, but with some practice you'll be comfortable enough. Just don't hesitate or a good deal will be gone and some sellers just suck at taking ads down or having the courtesy to let you know. When selling, don't make commitments to hold for longer than a few hours just assume that only 1 out of 10 who contact you are serious. Not just pinball, but everything.

If you get this frustrated this early into the hobby it is probably not the hobby for you.

its exciting when a pin you want comes up on the crosshair. over time you find it easier to pass on 'deals' lots of great people out there, also lots of dudes who value their 'perfect condition' beat up machine at 3x current value whilst yours is wholesale 2005.

First off, that's largely how communication can go on internet forums, Craistlist, etc, when you're selling something. It can be a bit crappy, but it's reality.

I'd like to add exactly what I just put in another thread, because I think it applies here too.
When you're selling a pin, there are generally two types of people who will inquire: ones who want what you have at a fair price, and ones who want a killer deal (generally) regardless of what it is.
Conversely, there are two types of people selling pins: those who just want to sell a game, and those who are fishing for someone willing to overpay.
I would ignore people who fall into the latter category on either. There are a lot of people out there just looking to take advantage; best to avoid them.

As more folks get into the hobby, this sort of thing is bound to happen.
Try to be patient. Some of the best deals, and realistic people, can be found
at pinball shows. Dealing with people that know nothing about their machines
and determine value from fleabay is a waste of time.
Steve

I don't think trades work very well. My guess is you want to trade "up" from your break shot to a newer stern type title. That is going to be a loooong wait. Sell, have cash ready and pounce on deals. Keep reading the archives on this site and you will read about others making a 20 hour car trip to get a pin. That is what you can be up against in this hobby. Waiting can be more than a week or two, more like months at a time with nothing then bam.

Sorry you didn't like what I typed but I was being honest. Not all hobbies are for everyone and I have seen a lot of people over the years level the hobby as it wasn't for them and the excitement they had was replaced with frustration.
You just started and posted about being "jaded" so maybe you fall with those that have come before you and left.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you are trying too hard. Pinball as a hobby is and always will be a hobby of patience. There are plenty of people who have way too much money to blow and good for them. But it sounds like you are like most of us, and that requires a lot of patience.

I've talked to guys who have waited 15 YEARS for games they've been looking for. It took me over 3 years to find a GNR at the right price, 2 years to find my WH20 etc. Currently, I'm coming up on two years to try and find the right deal on a WPT. Sure, there are tons out there, but I need the right deal.

It's a process not a sprint. I got lucky, my first game was WH20. You didn't, your first game is a breakshot. I know how it feels to really want that pin, but the harder you try, the crazier you will drive yourself and the more you will pay.

My best advice, screw Pinside (for deals), Craigslist, Ebay etc. If you want decent deals, go out to your local weekly or monthly tournament/league, make some friends, play their stuff, figure out what you really want. Those contacts are 100 times more likely to pay off than waiting for Pinside or Craigslist posts.

I'm not saying it's you, but far too often people expect the deals, or even fair prices these days, to just fall into their laps.

jalpert got it exactly right.

It sounds like your frustration is related to owning/ selling games. Owning a game is not a requirement of the hobby.

You started the hobby as a player and decided to become a collector. Stick to the player side and the only frustration you experience will be the good kind.

It's called searching/reading the forums.

This is a problem everywhere and isn't specific to pinball alone. Very few people have manners or understand common courtesies when it comes to communication. How many times do you send an email and wonder, "Did that email even go anywhere?" People stopped responding to snail mail letters, now emails are the same way. It happens more often than not with texts as well.

We've all flaked out on pinball deals. It happens. Things change and life gets in the way. I try to make sure I call guys back and let them know what's happened if I'm no longer interested in the deal. But most people just forget, or never even thought about that courtesy in the first place.

Just be patient. Before you know it you'll be up to your eyeballs in pins. Heh.

If you have the cash to buy NIB pro machines, you should be able to avoid some of the crap you've experienced.
I think there's less guessing when it comes to pricing. If it's $4200 (or whatever you pay where you are) NIB, you can probably expect to sell it for $3800 used give or take. ( I don't know prices in your area, but I think you'll get my drift).
Providing you buy decent titles with well developed code (ACDC, or StarTrek) for example, you should make out ok if/when you decide to trade them.
Of course, they're a whole lot more expensive than the majority of pins that are generally available.

Either way, try to spend more time playing the pins than worrying about buying and selling -and let me know if that's possible.

: )

It's ALL about rep. If you can search and see 100 posts thanking the seller for their transaction, it's probably okay. But use common sense, I have a list of about 15 questions I ask. Inserts level? That won't show on pics. Rust/moisture issues? Again, won't always show up.

LOL. Dumb. Just dumb.

In related news, the sky is blue.

I never play games I buy anymore. I boot it, make sure the switch matrix tests okay, light matrix too, I double flip the flippers for reset issues and that's about it. But that's years of being in the hobby. Do what YOU need to.

Dumb.

If you refuse to buy games that have been routed you just eliminated the majority of the games in existence right now. Not everyone here started out with a primo restored medieval. Lots of guys and gals started with a beat 250 dollar game and worked their way up.

My own advice? Not that you asked, but you get it anyway!

You gotta learn. And I think everyone learns things somehow. You will learn the hard way. My first pin I got from a vendor. Perfect deal, good price. I thought I was a smart guy...
I see a pin come up on ebay a few towns over from me. I made the guy an offer well below his asking price and he accepted. Awesome! Realized later that taking a lot off of a too-high price can still mean overpaying.
And so on.

This hobby is like any other one out there. Here are my tips:
If you dabble in CL stuff, prepare for it to be like fishing. You may get lucky. You may get screwed. You may get ignored. A decent pin comes up on CL and it's like a frenzy sometimes.
Don't fork cash over without seeing a game.
Make sure you actually play an example of a game before buying it (watching a youtube video of someone playing a machine doesn't count!)
If it's not a new game, make sure you read up on the common issues it can have beforehand. Buy a STTNG without doing some homework can make for a read bad day!
Trades are a crapshoot. Someone always makes out on the better end.

In the end, it is a great hobby and people here are great people. The issues you've hit are not pinhead issues, they are people issues. Enjoy the hobby and don't let it frustrate you!

People do overvalue their pins

A great example are the dozen folks trying to sell used ACDC's right now that cost more than new ones after shipping.

I'm sure there are many other titles with the same problem, that's just the one I'm semi-hunting for now so it's fresh in my mind.

Know what my resolution is?

Buy NIB

It's good for Stern/JJP & that's who needs our money anyway.

Some of the questions are game specific, but some good general questions:

-Are the inserts level? When you run your finger over them are any of they sunken or raised?

-Is there any planking on the play field or checking on the cab?

-Has the game been shopped? When? Are the flippers strong? Is the game clean under ramps and hard to reach places?

-Are there any moisture or rust issues? Rust / green / white junk from being near the sea?

-Is the game import or domestic?

-Are the GI connectors burnt?

-Do the serial numbers of the board match / Are there any hacks or odd fixes on the boards.

That kind of stuff, I think you get the idea. The thing with pictures is that they are basically meaningless. A bad picture can make a HEP game look odd and a pic from the right angles can make a container beater look showroom ready.

You need to trust the person you are dealing with. Their description and their account of the pinball is what you need to rely on.

For the first time this year, I was flat out lied to and screwed. It can happen, but looking back on it, there were red flags. But the guy just lied to questions that can't be confused. It does happen.

The guy owns one pin, it's a breakshot and he's frustrated about not being able to find pins in his price range. Just a hunch, he's not a NIB candidate.

Buy from a local ( ish ) pinsider - go and see it, play it, and you should then be ok.

And Breakshot isn't really a great pin to trade. Sell it, be a cash buyer ready to pounce on something good!

Yes, go to the shows. You'll find what you want.

What games are you looking for? Historically, if you ask what a good $1,800 game is you will get 100 people rattling off their favorite games with no regard for the OP. However, my short list (which also includes games I don't like):

JM
JD
JP
Just about anything system 11: Taxi, PF, Radical!, Earthshaker, WW...

T2

Just order a NIB WoZ and STLE, then you will have 2 brand new games and have immunity to rip on both companies as you see fit.

You can have mine for $3.5!

If you're looking for reliable communication, Craiglist is the last place you'll want to go. But if you're willing to deal with a lot of half-baked emails and poor communication, it works fine and can work out in your benefit. I've bought and sold through Craigslist. Selling is definitely much more difficult than buying, but I've been patient and things have worked out very well for me. For buying, I only buy locally. I have to be able to see a machine before I commit to any price, usually a ball-park figure is worked out before I drive there though. If the deal seems really good, I don't even bother with pictures or anything, I just drive out there with cash ASAP to see it in person as it is usually first come first serve on CL. I also don't discriminate against condition. I like project pins and enjoy working on them. If you know a little about electronics and aren't afraid to spend time learning about these machines, you could score a really nice deal on a machine that needs only a little bit of work. I'd recommend learning about them anyway, as you'll have to maintain them, and they will break down.

Playing first is best but not always possible. Use the avaialble sources to get an idea of what a pin is about.

www.ipdb.org (pinball database with info and reviews)
www.papa.org (has videos of gameplay for many pins and rulesheets)
rec.games.pinball newsgroup can be searched for many threads with opinions on games and tech help
www.pinside.com (reviews and threads on games)

There are other sources of info that can help narrow the search.

It's a great hobby. Just relax and be patient and enjoy the pin you have and just be ready when opportunity arises but don't force it. I have always had a pin in mind when I started looking which made the hunt part of the fun, camping out on CL stressing about catching a deal is going to be 99 ou5 of 100 meant with dissapointment so I don't bother,

This hobby, for a newbie is a learning process. I know more than I did 4 or 5 years ago.

WHile pinside is a great resource, sometimes a deal pops up where there is no time to consult with pinside.

It is about patience. Make your self a list of pins you 'want'. DO research on prices vs condition. Know what you will be comfortable in paying. Have cash on hand.

Wait and search. Make friends. Let your friends know you are looking for a title.

I have waited over a year to make deals happen with some of my sellers. It just took that long to make the deal. Patience.

I got my LOTR because my friend knew I was looking. He was able to make a package deal on several pins because of this. I got the 'call' from him. I said yes, (with my cash in hand). He was able to make his deal happen. I got the LOTR for the price I wanted to pay i the condition I wanted.

Awful. He's SO hopelessly out of touch with the market. Every time he posts in a pricing thread, it's good for a laugh.

Mr. Pinball is a good price guide. Alternately, I suggest looking at the Boston Pinball eBay pinball sales summary (google Boston Pinball price guide) for historical sales data, and learn to interpret that.

Like any hobby the more time you take to learn about it and become an "informed" buyer/seller/fixer/player the less frustrated you will be. Jalpert had good advice. Routed games are where the deals are and almost every game was routed at one time. Living in AZ your selections are going to be limited. If T2 pins are listed for 5k find one for 2k on ebay from a reliabe seller and pay 500 to get it shipped. It will be difficult for you to exclusively find games within driving distance.

With that said I would recommend learning how to fix pins. Roll your sleeves up, grab some tools and start rebuilding the flippers,slings etc. Take crap apart and put it back together. Watch you tube repair vids and read read read (manuals, posts etc). Its not that hard to fix games. You will soon know your way around a game and be that much better at assessing the time/money for repairs on potential purchases.

Have fun and be patient. Dont judge the hobby from one purchase and craigslist.

My husband and I bought our SS and Congo without seeing them. Both deals turned out great. Obviously the circumstances have to be right (mainly a reputable seller). But it can certainly be done if you feel comfortable and know how to manage the risks.

I doubt you'll get past game 3 with most sellers before they drop a buy/no buy ultimatum. It's downright disrespectful of the sellers time to have that expectation.

To the OP: Relax and enjoy the game you have. Consider stepping away from the forum for a bit - It has quite the influence on the "grass is greener" philosophy. Keep your trade offer out there. Keep your eye out for deals. Eventually one will happen.
The Cheap/Fast/Good philosophy applies 100% here.

Oh yeah, and if I had a nickel for every time someone unceremoniously bailed on a deal conversation....

It's universal in this "me me me" internet age. Once you've bought and sold enough (in anything - not just pins), you can tell if a person is a buyer or a tire kicker with their lead-in comment.

Mr Pinball isn't that great of a reference for pricing, imho. Boston is also a little outdated, but better than Mr Pinball. I would recommend Pinpedia.com and be sure to look at the statistics for the machine you are interested in. It will show past and current pricing along with trending and graphs and all. It's based mostly on eBay sales, but you can probably knock 5-10% off to get a general idea of what the game trades for with collectors.

Other than that, these things just take time. Unless money is no object, a good pinball collection takes a long time to put together. It's not out of the question to be on the lookout for a pin on your wishlist for months or even years. Just keep educating yourself in the meantime and play every game you can. Get plugged in to anything going on pinball related in your area and meet other enthusiasts. I don't think Breakshot will be a very easy sell, but something has got to give sooner or later.

I would also ignore the comments about 'buy NIB, don't buy off route, or buy Capcom!' The merits of buying NIB are debatable, but it's probably not a good way to get started. Buying off of route is a great way to get a game cheap and cut your teeth on minor repairs! A lot of people WISH they could still find games coming off of route. It might be worth contacting a few operators in your area to see if they have any excess inventory. Buy Capcom?? Parts are getting hard to find for those and very expensive when you can find them. Nothing wrong with owning a Capcom game as they are fun, but I can't imagine why someone would suggest sticking with the 5 or so games made by Capcom...

Brian