Nerdygrrl Gets Knighted: A Black Knight Adventure

Quoted from dzorbas:
The really good techs that I know keep telling me to invest in quality tools. But $200+ for a Fluke DMM is hard to swallow, or a good soldering iron or desoldering station for that matter. I don't feel I do enough repair work (yet) to justify that but I understand why they keep telling me to spend the cash!

My grandfather always preached about having the right tools to do the job and he was 100% spot on. What I have tried to do is purchase one necessary tool for each restoration I have done and just "apply" that to the cost of the job. It hurts a little less that way.

Aside from being able to test capacitance, I don't see much of a difference between meters. Not for the level of diagnosis I do. I have a $20 Rat Shack meter that has suited all of my needs. Heck, my friends have similar meters in their labs on campus.

This year I did invest in a proper soldering station and grabbed this one here. It's like night and day compared to my old iron. The time it saves is a huge deal:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077JDGY1J/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00

I've done about 12-15 CRT chassis rebuilds this year, so I really need a desoldering station. I know it will help speed things up. That being said, $300 is a lot of cash to spend on something like that. I'm hoping that this quarter's sales will be solid enough that I can grab one with my bonus.

Edit, I should add that I wasn't always capable of fixing this stuff on my own and have probably spent at least the cost of a station on repairs that I have sent out. I just inquired about having the forty pin, NVRAM, and sockets replaced on my boards, depending on the quoted price, I may take the plunge on the station as it is all work I could do if I had one.

#54 5 years ago

KDZ

dzorbas

Pinside member

Pickering, ON

9y 50,550 648 9

OP
Quoted from nerdygrrl:
Edit, I should add that I wasn't always capable of fixing this stuff on my own and have probably spent at least the cost of a station on repairs that I have sent out. I just inquired about having the forty pin, NVRAM, and sockets replaced on my boards, depending on the quoted price, I may take the plunge on the station as it is all work I could do if I had one.

I don't consider myself that skilled but I have done board work such as this (sockets, caps, transistors, resistors, headers, etc). I had a really cheapo soldering iron and I bought something a little more expensive with temperature control and it helped immensely but I would still prefer something like the Weller you linked to. I certainly couldn't stomach the cost of sending something out to get fixed knowing I can do it myself but your time has to be worth something as well.

Desoldering is more of a problem than soldering, that's for sure!

#55 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from dzorbas:
I certainly couldn't stomach the cost of sending something out to get fixed knowing I can do it myself but your time has to be worth something as well.
Desoldering is more of a problem than soldering, that's for sure!

Oh totally agreed. I just got a variety of quotes back for work that I can essentially do if I had a station. So it may be about that time to take the plunge as the labor costs are about 1/2 the cost of a station. That's not a knock on their quotes, I think they were all very fair.

#56 5 years ago

TPR

frunch

Pinside member

Point Pleasant, NJ

11y 135K 3,642 10

Go for it! I bought a Hakko 808 a while back for about $150 or so and have found it to be one of my favorite tools in my arsenal. It does a fantastic job, and puts certain repairs within reach that i wouldn't have attempted before. (Not saying there aren't other good desoldering station options out there, just that the 808 has worked well for me so far)

Good luck!

#57 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Deja Vu: It's raining Knights. When I grabbed the Knight in Maine I had several collectors reach out and offer to buy it. I had no real intention of selling and looked forward to the restoration process. I had also placed an ad looking for a better PF, Glass, and Plastics. A buddy reached out and offered to sell me his project Knight to help with my cause. It seemed like a win-win. I could maybe upgrade my parts and I could also help out someone that had wanted to do a restoration.

The boards on my friend's Knight were better, the PF's are about the same, but his was in a realm that I could maybe fix myself. His glass was also noticeably better than the one from ME. I plan on swapping some parts around and then moving this fellow along to another local collector that is planning to do a head to toe restoration with a mirco playfield.
unnamed-7 (resized).jpgunnamed-9 (resized).jpg unnamed-12 (resized).jpgunnamed-13 (resized).jpgunnamed-14 (resized).jpg

#58 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from frunch:
Go for it! I bought a Hakko 808 a while back for about $150 or so and have found it to be one of my favorite tools in my arsenal. It does a fantastic job, and puts certain repairs within reach that i wouldn't have attempted before. (Not saying there aren't other good desoldering station options out there, just that the 808 has worked well for me so far)
Good luck!

That's good to know. I've heard great things about their stuff. I just had a local buddy that teaches electrical engineering reach out and offer me his on loan. I dodged a bullet for now, but this is definitely at the top of my list when I get my Q3 bonus.

#59 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from JodyG:
No socket for the IC?
This is the best bang for your buck regulated soldering station out there, IMO.
http://www.newark.com/tenma/21-10115/soldering-station-esd-safe-60w/dp/56T2208
A desoldering station is nearly a necessity if you start working on games a few years newer that have thin traces.

Yeah, I missed the mark there. A mistake I hope not to repeat.

#60 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-knight-low-5v-new-vr-acting-weird#post-4496806

A big day here today, I finally sorted out the crazy lack of 5v on the PS. Well not fully sorted, but at least partially. Now to figure out why the switch line is acting the way it is. I need to see if I just have a faulty switch or if someone bypassed something. We're gettig closer to a test fire now.

#61 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Ok with my voltages kind of sorted, it's time to test fire. I have my doubts given the forty pin repair that was done on here

Toothpicks: For when that connector isn't quite as snug as you would like.

unnamed-7 (resized).jpg

#62 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

I installed the boards and PF from the second cab and as could be expected they are not booting. I had two small glimmers of hope, but both were dashed.

When I initially held in the diagnostic switch I got the "9" error and face palmed myself for not installing a battery pack. Installed said pack and got the same non boot. Then I realized the battery pack has on on/off switch. Flipped that on and nada. Did the open the coin door and turn it on and off thing and nada.

This is about as far as I can really far as I can really go until I get that interconnect pin fixed. GPE seems out of stock on them, so I may just send it out locally to get that and the sockets taken care of.

Not progressing as fast as I would like, but what can you do.

unnamed-9 (resized).jpgunnamed-12 (resized).jpgunnamed-13 (resized).jpg

#63 5 years ago

WOT

Atari_Daze

Spd

Houston, TX

7y 141K 10,053 7

Ah that previous header connection repair is priceless, hope you don't mind Miss 277, new nickname, I posted that in the shitty repair thread.

Seriously, keep up the progress!

#64 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from Atari_Daze:
Ah that previous header connection repair is priceless, hope you don't mind Miss 277, new nickname, I posted that in the shitty repair thread.

Seriously, keep up the progress!

Hahahah, I was the original 277. I feel bad. Didn’t come across as I should have there.

That thread was a train wreck I should never have gotten involved in. Just hard seeing people you know dragged when others don’t know the entire story. I felt the need to try and defend. We have a great community here. Lots of really helpful and kind people.

Sadly I just added to it.

#65 5 years ago

DJT

Taxman

In Memoriam

11y 90,950 6,228 34 30

The toothpick thing is classic. I never saw that one before.

I also notice you take the "smoke test" pretty serious by keeping the fire extinguisher close. (Class "C" I hope)

#66 5 years ago

JON

Schwaggs

The toothpicks are definitely a "mod" for the archives!

Is the game booting to the 2500 3 mode reliably? That would be a really good sign.

You tried turning it off and back on as fast as you can with the coin door open and it will not progress past that state? Batteries or not should get the game to attract mode using this trick.

If this is the case, you either have a bad memory protect switch on the coin door or (more likely) you have a bad 5101 memory chip on the CPU board. Perfect time to replace the 5101 with NVRAM.

#67 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from Schwaggs:
The toothpicks are definitely a "mod" for the archives!
Is the game booting to the 2500 3 mode reliably? That would be a really good sign.
You tried turning it off and back on as fast as you can with the coin door open and it will not progress past that state? Batteries or not should get the game to attract mode using this trick.
If this is the case, you either have a bad memory protect switch on the coin door or (more likely) you have a bad 5101 memory chip on the CPU board. Perfect time to replace the 5101 with NVRAM.

Yes sir, did the open door on/off to no avail. I'm feeling pretty good, but it's definitely time to attend to that header, swap some sockets and do the NVRAM. GPE seems to be out of stock on the 40 pin, so I may just send it to my local guy as he quoted me $100 to do the work.

#68 5 years ago

JON

Schwaggs

OP
Quoted from nerdygrrl:
Yes sir, did the open door on/off to no avail. I'm feeling pretty good, but it's definitely time to attend to that header, swap some sockets and do the NVRAM. GPE seems to be out of stock on the 40 pin, so I may just send it to my local guy as he quoted me $100 to do the work.

If you feel like messing with it some more you could verify the memory protect is working properly. With the game on and coin door open, you should see close to 0v at TP3. With the door closed, you should see 5V at TP3.

TP3 is just above and to the right of the 2 LEDs. It is just above TP7 so make sure you have the right test point.

If that is working properly, you can be pretty sure you have a 5101 problem.

#69 5 years ago

OZZ

PoMC

Pinside+ Member

10y 121K 8,836

OP
Quoted from nerdygrrl:
Hahahah, I was the original 277. I feel bad. Didn’t come across as I should have there.
That thread was a train wreck I should never have gotten involved in. Just hard seeing people you know dragged when others don’t know the entire story. I felt the need to try and defend. We have a great community here. Lots of really helpful and kind people.
Sadly I just added to it.

Yeah, now I know of you from your participation in that thread. Not a great first forum introduction even though I see you've been a member for 5 years. Never noticed you before that thread and just now saw this repair thread and thought, "oh, I know who that is, she's part of the Massachusetts Goon Squad."

#70 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from Schwaggs:
If you feel like messing with it some more you could verify the memory protect is working properly. With the game on and coin door open, you should see close to 0v at TP3. With the door closed, you should see 5V at TP3.
TP3 is just above and to the right of the 2 LEDs. It is just above TP7 so make sure you have the right test point.
If that is working properly, you can be pretty sure you have a 5101 problem.

Thanks for that tip! I will definitely give it a try tonight.

#71 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from PoMC:
Yeah, now I know of you from your participation in that thread. Not a great first forum introduction even though I see you've been a member for 5 years. Never noticed you before that thread and just now saw this repair thread and thought, "oh, I know who that is, she's part of the Massachusetts Goon Squad."

You never noticed me because I stay out of those types of threads. The fact I felt the need to speak up in one says a lot. Feel free to believe whatever it is that you want. The reality out here is quite different than how some have perceived it. Like I stated, we have a great local, inclusive and welcoming community. Some people take full advantage of that.

I feel pretty ok with my community rep and general all around rep. I've been doing this long enough and have helped out plenty of fellow collectors. The same cannot be said for everyone in that thread.

#72 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=09-48-2106

Quoted from Taxman:
The toothpick thing is classic. I never saw that one before.
I also notice you take the "smoke test" pretty serious by keeping the fire extinguisher close. (Class "C" I hope)

Safety first

#73 5 years ago

mappy_mouse

Pinside member

11y 51,900 406

OP
Quoted from nerdygrrl:
GPE seems out of stock on them

Not sure if it is the same place but docent_electronics on eBay carry them if it helps.

#74 5 years ago

OXO

Pecos

Pecos Pinball

8y 122K 4,495 56

OP
Quoted from nerdygrrl:
GPE seems to be out of stock on the 40 pin

It looks like the 09-52-3102 'Connector, 0.156", Receptacle, 10-Pin Bottom Entry' is obsolete and replaced with part number 09-48-2106.

#75 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from Pecos:
It looks like the 09-52-3102 'Connector, 0.156", Receptacle, 10-Pin Bottom Entry' is obsolete and replaced with part number 09-48-2106.
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=09-48-2106

Oh weird, when I checked last I got the "notify me when back in stock" notice. Thanks. Looks like Ed is going to get some more of my $$

#76 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from mappy_mouse:
Not sure if it is the same place but docent_electronics on eBay carry them if it helps.

Thanks!

#77 5 years ago

JCC

shacklersrevenge

Cape Cod Beyond- Rentals

Gardner, MA

13y 147K 6,267 21 16 2

#78 5 years ago

BED

smokey_789

Inactive member

Greenville, OH

11y 50,150 1,642 11

EXcellent post! And timely for me as I just picked up one too. MPU went to Clive. Kudos to chicks that can do component level repair! (Not to mention your impeccable spelling.) You go girl....

#79 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from smokey_789:
EXcellent post! And timely for me as I just picked up one too. MPU went to Clive. Kudos to chicks that can do component level repair! (Not to mention your impeccable spelling.) You go girl....

Spelling varies greatly depending on wether or not glasses are worn and my caffeine intake. Some days are better than others.

A lot of the hiccups here are my lack of familiarity with the System 7 hardware. It's going ok. I can't thanks Schwaggs and others enough for chiming in.

#80 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from Schwaggs:
If you feel like messing with it some more you could verify the memory protect is working properly. With the game on and coin door open, you should see close to 0v at TP3. With the door closed, you should see 5V at TP3.
TP3 is just above and to the right of the 2 LEDs. It is just above TP7 so make sure you have the right test point.
If that is working properly, you can be pretty sure you have a 5101 problem.

OK TP 9, I get 4.8, TP 1 I get 12.6, TP 3 door closed I get 3.87 and open I don't get a solid reading, the meter goes wonky.

Looks like I will be ordering a NVRAM and the other bits I need. Do you guys have any faves for NVRAM? Is the Locked When Lit stuff the way to go? Seems a bit pricey, not sure how these things vary.

#81 5 years ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

14y 234K 17,629 104

Just happens to be what I use the most. https://www.pinitech.com/products/5101_nvram.php

Single 5101 NVRAM is what you want from this one for the system 3 to 7 board set. https://nvram.weebly.com/

The locked when lit AnyPin NVRAM is one you can configure for multiple RAM and is good if you want to test in all types of MPU boards, but overkill for keeping in a single board. I haven't looked lately to see if he has one only for 5101.

#82 5 years ago

JON

Schwaggs

OP
Quoted from nerdygrrl:
OK TP 9, I get 4.8, TP 1 I get 12.6, TP 3 door closed I get 3.87 and open I don't get a solid reading, the meter goes wonky.
Looks like I will be ordering a NVRAM and the other bits I need. Do you guys have any faves for NVRAM? Is the Locked When Lit stuff the way to go? Seems a bit pricey, not sure how these things vary.

Andrew makes some really nice NVRAM modules for pretty much all applications. https://nvram.weebly.com/

When the coin door opens, TP3 should be a solid 0V (or really near there). Can you try measuring from TP3 (mem protect) to TP10 (ground) which is just below and to the right of TP9. This would rule out a flaky ground connection as a possible cause.

If you still see a random signal, I would take a look into the interlock switch wiring. It enters the CPU board at Pin 1 on J3 (leftmost pin on the leftmost 4 pin connector on the top of the CPU board). As a test, you could use a jumper wire to ground that pin. In this condition, the fast on/off trick should work which would help you confirm if you have a 5101 memory problem.

#83 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from PinballManiac40:
Just happens to be what I use the most. https://www.pinitech.com/products/5101_nvram.php
Single 5101 NVRAM is what you want from this one for the system 3 to 7 board set. https://nvram.weebly.com/
The locked when lit AnyPin NVRAM is one you can configure for multiple RAM and is good if you want to test in all types of MPU boards, but overkill for keeping in a single board. I haven't looked lately to see if he has one only for 5101.

Thanks!

Quoted from Schwaggs:
Andrew makes some really nice NVRAM modules for pretty much all applications. https://nvram.weebly.com/
When the coin door opens, TP3 should be a solid 0V (or really near there). Can you try measuring from TP3 (mem protect) to TP10 (ground) which is just below and to the right of TP9. This would rule out a flaky ground connection as a possible cause.
If you still see a random signal, I would take a look into the interlock switch wiring. It enters the CPU board at Pin 1 on J3 (leftmost pin on the leftmost 4 pin connector on the top of the CPU board). As a test, you could use a jumper wire to ground that pin. In this condition, the fast on/off trick should work which would help you confirm if you have a 5101 memory problem.

I was testing from point 10 to 3 and not getting a solid reading on the meter with the door open. I'll check the wiring as you suggested in a few. I can't thank you enough for all of your help with this. If you are ever in my neck of the woods I owe some drinks or grub.

#84 5 years ago

chucktee

Pinside member

Gladys, VA

12y 40,400 368 3

OP
Quoted from nerdygrrl:
That's good to know. I've heard great things about their stuff. I just had a local buddy that teaches electrical engineering reach out and offer me his on loan. I dodged a bullet for now, but this is definitely at the top of my list when I get my Q3 bonus.

Hakko doesn't make the 808 anymore it's been replaced with the FR-300. Got me one last fall and admittedly I haven't used it much yet but let me tell you it is a life saver. And now paired with the Hakko FX-888D that I FINALLY was able to purchase my board work jobs are now much easier and of better quality as well. Both of them worth every penny.

#85 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from chucktee:
Hakko doesn't make the 808 anymore it's been replaced with the FR-300. Got me one last fall and admittedly I haven't used it much yet but let me tell you it is a life saver. And now paired with the Hakko FX-888D that I FINALLY was able to purchase my board work jobs are now much easier and of better quality as well. Both of them worth every penny.

That's the one I have been looking at. Thanks for the recommendation. I love hearing real world reviews.

#86 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

OK, took a look at J3 and wouldn't you know it, this was pinned incorrectly. Now here's the head scratcher, this had been working in the home as is. This connector doesn't look like it has been touched ever. Yo no say.

So I installed the wire in the correct position and did as Schwaggs recommended. Upon powering up I now get nothing on the displays. The LED flashes zero and then goes blank. I cannot coin up, but if I press flipper buttons they activate and the pop bumper kicked when depressed as well. This had not been happening before.

I grounded Pin 1 to pin 10 and did the off and on thing with door open and closed and nothing changed. The readings remained the same a solid 3.87 when door is shut and a wonky reading when opened. I then went and grounded the original connection pin 4 and didn't get anything either. We are definitely getting closer.

unnamed-7 (resized).jpgunnamed-9 (resized).jpg

#87 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-knight-free-play-1#post-3054174

OK, so on the other earlier revision cab I had (it just got picked up last night). The coin switch wire was where Schwaggs stated it should be, pin one (farthest left) on J3. I was just looking at another fellow's thread and his wiring was the same as mine J3 pin 4???

#88 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

OK, I just checked the schematics and coin door wiring is IJ4 no J3, so I will repin IJ3 and then jump IJ4

#89 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

IJ3 repinned, getting the 2503 on the displays again. Grounded pin 1 on IJ4 did the on/off thing and nothing changed. I guess we shall wait for the NVRAM to arrive and go from there.

#90 5 years ago

JON

Schwaggs

OP
Quoted from nerdygrrl:
OK, I just checked the schematics and coin door wiring is IJ4 no J3, so I will repin IJ3 and then jump IJ4

Wow, sorry about that! The switch input does indeed come into the board on 1J4 pin 1. I was confused by the schematic that shows that Memory Protect input is also connected to on 1J3 pin 3 on the board, probably just for manufacturing flexibility.

1J3 needs to stay connected otherwise the displays will not work (as you found out). It provides the blanking signal to the master display board.

Grounding pin 1 on 1J3 or 1J4 should make TP3 go near 5V. If that's not working, the NVRAM may not fix anything.

All you need to do is remove 1J4 and short pins 1 (mem protect) and pin 2 (ground).

If your still not seeing 5V, IC7 (7404 hex inverter) may be bad. To confirm, with 1J4 pin 1 grounded, measure the voltage at pin 13 of IC7 (should be 0). Then measure the voltage at pin 16 of IC7 (should be 5). If not, IC7 is probably the culprit.

Of course, if you are done messing around with this (and who could blame you ), you can just try the NVRAM first.

#91 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

You sir are truly awesome. NVRAM is en route and I am on the road today so I can test that trick tomorrow and go from there.

#92 5 years ago

EEP

epeabs

Pinside+ Frequent

Auburn, NH

11y 82,300 1,272 3

Any promising updates on the repair?

#93 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from epeabs:
Any promising updates on the repair?

I got the NVRAM in Wednesday and my GPE order with new connectors, etc should be here tomorrow. I figured I should wait and do them all at once.

#94 5 years ago

CJN

Joey_N

Pinside member

Madison, AL

11y 31,900 277 1

Hey, I have a Tri Zone project sitting in my garage. It's about 15% as cool as Black Knight, but similar guts and issues. Looks like a nightmare, but with the 'guides' and all, I strangely look forward to it. Looks like a ton of connector replacement, repinning, etc.. Good luck, I'll watch this thread.

#95 5 years ago

EEP

epeabs

Pinside+ Frequent

Auburn, NH

11y 82,300 1,272 3

No rush on my part. I was just curious how it was going. Always interesting to see progress.

#96 5 years ago

JSG

Thor-NL

Pinside member

Breda

11y 97,650 2,289 8

Quoted from epeabs:
No rush on my part. I was just curious how it was going. Always interesting to see progress.

What no rush ?
Get that Dark Knight riding again!!

#97 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Quoted from epeabs:
No rush on my part. I was just curious how it was going. Always interesting to see progress.

Quoted from Thor-NL:
What no rush ?
Get that Dark Knight riding again!!

Exactly! I am chomping at the bit to get this booted. I was hoping that everything would have arrived here for the weekend, what can you do. Hopefully by Wednesday I can get the board work done and go from there.

#98 5 years ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

14y 234K 17,629 104

Well, I always tell people not to replace too many parts in between board testing as it would make it easier to know if a new problem showed up after NVRAM or the interconnectors were changed, depending on which was changed first. If by chance you get a real boot failure (not the audit issue you currently have) It will be a fun time testing continuity to find out where the break in the trace might be since you will have to test two areas of concern, not just one.

What I normally do is pull out the MPU/driver together as a set leaving them connected and change the NVRAM and reinstall the boards and retest while waiting on the interconnectors to come in.

3 weeks later

#99 5 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member