(Topic ID: 65956)

Need opinion on damaged Addams Family cabinet caused by shipping company.


By Scooby

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 31 posts
  • 15 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by rvdv
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 6 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

IMG_2917.jpeg
IMG_2915.jpeg
IMG_2914.jpeg
IMG_2912.jpeg
IMG_2911.jpeg
IMG_2910.jpeg

#1 6 years ago

I just picked up an Addams Family and the shipping company drove a forklift into it and damaged the cabinet. Of course they offered me some ridiculous lowball offer as a settlement so I told them I would be suing them instead which I promptly filed the paperwork and served them. I wanted some feedback as to whether people thought the cabinet would be structurally sound if they repaired it or whether it would only cosmetically look better the true integrity of the cabinet and backbox would be forever impaired. Specifically, it appears they drove into the backbox on the right hand side as it was folded down on the machine. The top right hand corner of the backbox has split open. The impact forced the right side hinge into the side rail where it bent over the top of the machine and badly bent the side rail and then shattered the glass from the side impact. The lockbar on the front left is now out of alignment as can be scene from where it used to overlap the left side rail and is now out by about a quarter to a half inch. The vertical joint above the front left leg has now separated and when i looked under the cabinet, the seam for the where the left side meets up with the bottom of the cabinet has also started to separate and some of the plywood from the left cabinet side has started to splinter in the same spot. I'm attaching some photos of the damage but I wanted to find out people's opinions whether they think the structural integrity of the cabinet and the wood itself has been compromised. My thought is that it has been compromised badly from the torque caused by the impact and it will never be the same even if they can re-glue and patch some of the things back together. This will aid in my lawsuit against the shipping company so I thank you in advance for taking the time to read and to comment.

IMG_2910.jpeg IMG_2911.jpeg IMG_2912.jpeg IMG_2914.jpeg IMG_2915.jpeg IMG_2917.jpeg
#2 6 years ago

Looks (from pics) repairable to me

#3 6 years ago

You can repair anything but the question is will the structural integrity be there. For the impact to cause enough torque that the opposite side of the machine starts splintering and splitting apart I would question or doubt the integrity of the structure or wood itself after that.

#4 6 years ago

Should be a simple enough repair and if done correctly will be structurally sound.

Sean

#5 6 years ago

I forgot to add that the impact was also great enough to break the DMD as well as a number of the kick outs no longer working as well as other electronic issues. I'm sure the shipping company would want to repair it but I just don't know what it will do to the cabinet that you can't see.

#6 6 years ago

Scooby,
Anytime that much torque is created on impact, where the playfield glass is shattered, and the sides of the cabinet and head are split, a NEW CABINET should be utilized. This is not a inexpensive pinball machine, and should be restored to the exact condition before the damage occured; Not a bondo type fix! I would not accept anything less!
When a vehicle is involved in an accident, NEW parts are used to restore the vehicle per the insurance companies oversight. You paid them a fee and the moving company damaged your property. Ultimately, the moving company is AT FAULT, and should be held accountable for their actions. Best of luck.

#7 6 years ago

Thanks Cleanroom, that is what I was thinking but wanted to get others feedback as well. I think the other guys are just focussing on the cosmetic aspect as opposed to the actual quality of the cabinet afterwards.

#8 6 years ago

Just imagine your car in an accident. Enough to damage the structural integrity. They can fix it, but its never the same as before the accident. Tire sensors go off, tires wear differently,imbalance, wheel shakes, just a bit at first, but gets worse over time. A lot of moving parts on an addams family. You might be tweaking and adjusting forever after that accident.

#9 6 years ago

I'm also glad to see that you're not going to let them get off the hook easily. Accountability.

#10 6 years ago

What were the terms when the machine was shipped? Was actual value-based insurance available and purchased?

Most freight companies that I know and previously used here in the States will not insure something like a pinball machine for its actual value. They "insure" based on the weight. The terms that you agree to by shipping through them basically say that they can trash the machine and give you about $150 as compensation. That's why STI (aka NAVL) is the best (IMO, only) way to ship pins here, because they provide value-based insurance and generally handle these machines with more care. So I hope you used a company STI and not a standard, cheaper LTL freight company.

As for what you do with any money you get from them, it's really up to you. Sure, it's damaged, it wasn't that way, it sucks...but assuming you bought this with intentions to keep, I'd say "it's just a pinball machine" and get the cabinet fixed within reason and enjoy it. If the machine is going to sit somewhere for years and only be moved slightly by nudging, I wouldn't be concerned about the structural integrity if it's repaired properly. Making a comparison between a static wood box and a complex vehicle that you drive 60mph is silly, IMO. The pinball machine isn't a fatal accident waiting to happen, unless we're talking about that plate glass in the machine.

If you know it's something that will bother you, get a new cabinet and swap everything over. Either way, good luck!

#11 6 years ago

I'm in Canada so I used a company called Sameday Worldwide which is a subsidiary of Day & Ross which is supposedly the largest freight company in Canada or something like that. The pin was only travelling about 4.5 hours and it was supposed to arrive the next day but they mislabelled it and it arrived 2 days after it was supposed to show up and damaged from sitting in the warehouse for so long. I ordered the shipping and paid for it and they never mentioned anything about limited liability but I doubt they will be protected from negligence regardless. It says on the bill of lading that if value isn't filled out then they are only limited to $2/pound but there are 2 issues with that. Firstly, I was the client who ordered the shipping and proceeded to pay for it. They never showed me a bill of lading so my lawyer suggested they can not rely on that disclosure if they never showed it to me. Secondly, when they had the shipper fill out the bill of lading, they specifically told him which fields needed to be filled in and if they are going to provide instruction then that will supersede any small print disclosure on the document anyway. They think they can intimidate me into taking a useless settlement but I've already filed a lawsuit against them and they should be liable up to the value of the pin which I can prove because I paid for it while the drivers were loading it into their truck and the deposit slip from the bank is at exactly the same time as they picked it up as stated on the bill of lading. As for price, I paid around $300 for a 4.5 hour drive which I think is not particularly cheap. If they don't want to own up to their responsibility they will probably wind up spending more in legal fees than replacing the cabinet.

#12 6 years ago

Is there any damage to the playfield? I would check very closely to the impact area and the locations of break in the glass.

#13 6 years ago

Playfield is ok. The impact was on the top edge at the rail and the playfield sits much lower down so I don't think there was any force at the edge of the playfield. Although the glass broke, it didn't move much so nothing touched the playfield.

#14 6 years ago

Get a quote to fix it from a cabinetmaker, repairs are never easy. Your glass is not tempered, be careful removing it. I would have rented a trailer and picked it up myself if it was only 4.5 hours away.
Just my opinion, Bob

#15 6 years ago

Thanks for the suggestion but unfortunately I am just too busy to be able to take the time to get get it myself nor would it be economical to do so. I would have expected it to be a simple pickup and delivery if it wasn't for the fact that they seemed to misplace it for 2 days.

#16 6 years ago

Had this happen to me.Only game out of 15 I did not pick up myself.Freight company tipped it off pallet when loading(I am guessing they left the legs on).It was Fishtales,damage done-topper smashed,caster split half off cabinet,both front corners split.The freight company asked me if I bought it to play or as an investment and I replied by saying I wasn't happy and they immediately offered to pay me the original purchase price.I gave them my receipt for $2,750,the insurance company paid me $2,950 an I bought the game back off them for $600.Put the rest of the money towards another two games,that I transported my self!Fishtales has been my most reliable game,in 12 years I have only replaced the drive belt for reel.

#17 6 years ago

New glass $25
New cab $500
New cab decals $300
Labor to swap $500

=======================

Should not be too hard to come up with a total.

#18 6 years ago

Not sure how things specifically work in Canada, but there are some similarities with US law due to it all deriving from British common law (except for Louisiana, which bases everything on the Napoleonic code).

For one, the court considers not the value to buy new, but only the value to replace. This helps and harms depending on circumstances. Say you buy a new xbox game for $60 and I smash it. The court would only award you the average second-hand market value of maybe $40. Ah, but what if the item in question is a collector's item that's no longer in production? Doesn't matter how much you bought it for, it only matters how much it costs now to replace it. You can see how this is advantageous.

Like a classic car, the dollar amount in the suit will probably revolve around how much it costs to repair. Here in the states, reproduction parts are usually used as opposed to (much more expensive) OEM parts unless you can convince the judge otherwise. However, there isn't exactly a huge after-market for pinball parts compared to car parts. Especially when it comes to plastics and toys and artwork pieces that cannot be reproduced by multiple sellers without copyright infringement. This also works to your favor, because the shippers can't fall back on cheapo inferior copy-cat parts.

Here's what you should do if you haven't done it already. Take an inventory of every individual part that is broken or not working properly. For each one, look up how much it would cost to replace it from at minimum three reputable sellers (pinball life, pinbits, marco, bay area amusements, etc). You might not even be able to find more than one seller for some parts, in which case you might have no choice but to look at ended ebay sales. Get quotes from at least 3 reputable restorers on how much it would cost to do the repair (including building a new cabinet and adding decals).

My point here is that the shippers are going to take you to the mat claiming that you're just spouting off whatever inflated prices you can think of. The judge won't know anything about pinball or the pinball market, and they will take advantage of that. Your goal is to get all that pricing info to your lawyer so that he/she can make the judge see reality.

#19 6 years ago

Thanks JoJoBear,

The damage is going to be primarily to the cabinet, glass, DMD and possibly some boards. The playfield seems to be completely unaffected. By the time the case comes up I will have already repaired the damage which they have refused to do so I would imagine if they try and argue that I should have repaired the cabinet instead of replacing it they will lose their ability to argue that considering they are refusing to do either at this point. The rest of the parts should be readily available so pricing shouldn't be an issue. They are just trying to limit their liability by trying to rely on a loophole that I have been told by a few lawyers that it will not hold up. Because the amount is relatively small I am suing them in small claims court which it is meant for non-lawyers and I don't think bringing lawyers in is looked upon favourably and I have no problem handling things myself as I am usually quite methodical about things. I would imagine the courts would also be more sympathetic to me as the shipping company is trying to weasel their way out even though there is no question they are 100% at fault. The legal principals that I remember from law courses I took back in university tells me they can not rely on the small print disclosure they are saying they are going by. It should be interesting but it seems like enough people on here agree that cosmetically fixing the cabinet up will not fix the integrity that is lost in the cabinet from the impact.

#20 6 years ago

I am the seller and I can confirm all of Scooby's allegations.

We have spent hours on the phone troubleshooting problems that now exist with the machine now that did NOT prior to the damage. The physical damage to the game is certainly more than bad enough, but on top of that there are several internal issues that now need to be addressed. Boards, DMD, VUK's, lights, etc etc etc. Not to mention that the game was dialed in when it left my house for Scooby's house. Now even once all of the replacement parts have been installed, and everything is verified to be working 100%, it will still take considerable time to get everything adjusted and dialed in again.

The whole episode has been stomach-turning from the moment he received it. The shipping company's refusal to accept any responsibility for their negligence just adds a great deal of insult to injury...

#21 6 years ago

Wow, all that damage for such a short trip. Isn't Kelowna only a few hours from Vancouver?

That took "talent" to damage it that badly.

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from Scooby:

They are just trying to limit their liability by trying to rely on a loophole that I have been told by a few lawyers that it will not hold up

I would not be surprised if the lawyers are talking about "bailment", a legal concept which is found practically anyplace the English ever stepped foot. It's basically describes any contract wherein property changes possession but not ownership. These are things like borrowing your neighbors tools, paying for valet parking, and most importantly the transporting and delivering of parcels.

Because the agreement you initially entered into with the seller was to both of your benefits (you get your machine and they get money), they can't just absolve themselves of all liability with some fine print like it's written in magic ink. By default they take on liability called "duty of care"; they have the implied "duty" to take reasonable and normal "care" of your package in its transportation to you.

Duty of care is established by three things:

1 - reasonably foreseeable: It's easy to foresee a pinball machine getting bumped around in transportation, so you you took precautions to have it wrapped and well-padded with shipping blankets. Especially so since shippers all say they are not responsible for damage in the fine print.

2 - relationship of proximity between defendant and plaintiff: You contracted with the shipper to have them transport your machine in exchange for an agreed-upon amount of currency.

3 - it must be fair and just to impose liability: Given the precautions taken in 1, it is only fair for the shipper to do their part and be expected to deliver the machine with no damage or only superficial damage.

Don't know what Canada has that's equivalent, but in America I can take my itemized costs to the county clerk and have it registered as "verified debt" against the shipper of which I am a creditor. I can then report the debt as delinquent to the three credit reporting agencies here and hurt their credit score, or I could cut my losses and sell it to a debt collector.

I've done this twice, but in completely different circumstances. Both I sent to the credit reporting agencies. On one I sued for amount + double in small claims (Texas allows 3x damages for punitive reasons up to a max of $10,000 USD) and settled out of court for the amount + 40% punitive to cover semi-related fees. The other actually went to small-claims court. Defendent was a no-show, so I got a default judgement of $10,000 (just under triple damages). Sold the debt to a debt collector for the cost of my damages plus a little extra for fees.

I'm not a sue-happy guy, and Americans do get a reputation for such, but sometimes you just have no recourse when large dollar values are at stake and your dealing with a slime-ball. For some reason, transportation and repair services for heavy and expensive machinery seems to have a greater-than-average occurrence of dishonest characters.

#23 6 years ago

JoJoBear,

You seem to be a wealth of legal information. With regards to what you are referring to with "duty of care", I don't remember the terminology but I do recall from law courses I took once upon a time the same thing that you have said, that they don't resolve themselves but including small print. I remember the example in school from a coat check or valet where they have small print saying something to that effect but that does not absolve them of liability if they are careless which in this case they definitely were. The pin was wrapped to protect it from small bumps, not heavy equipment running in to it.

Our small claims are good to $25,000 but I don't believe they include any punitive damages though they do include court and filing costs which are relatively small. I hear you about not being a sue-happy guy but I find myself in the same position as you. I seem to have a number of different people that it seems I need to sue (not shipping or industry related) because they are just thieves or present themselves as "experts on something" but then refuse to take on responsibility which really is annoying. I guess the more things in general you do the more likely it is that you are getting screwed by someone. In my case I have a number of things related to my house renovation which was a very large job. Even though I'm up here in Canada it seems that I have no choice other than to sue a bunch of different idiots. This shipping company is one of them and I forewarned them not to screw around with me and now it is likely going to cost them much more than it would have if they would have owned up it properly.

I warned them on Friday and they didn't take it seriously so I filed in small claims court on Monday and served their lawyer with papers the same day. They have 14 days to file a defence and then it will go to some sort of mediator for settlement in something like 3 to 4 months I'm told. If both parties don't agree then it will go to court. In small claims it is frowned on to use attorneys I believe but they probably have no choice and will have to keep racking up costs if they continue to push it. If they don't file a defence then I can file for default judgement though I don't expect this to happen. They were probably hoping that I would be forced to take something they offer because I would need it to fix the pin but this is not an issue for me and I will just order a new cabinet and have it all swapped over and tested to see what boards are now damaged. When it comes to settlement or whatever, I will just supply all the invoices and they can either pay it or spend more money to take it to trial but I can't believe they would be that stupid to do so as they really do not have a leg to stand on and I'll take it as far as I need to.

#24 6 years ago

I wish you the very best with your suit, and I hope you get a fair settlement. Off topic, but one thing you'll need to look out for is the carrier's Rules Tariff (hereby "tariff"). This is a published, publicly available document that lays out all the rules and guidelines for shipping with the carrier. It is required by law in the States that all motor carriers have one readily available or sent upon request. I'm fairly sure Canadian-based carriers are required to have one as well.

If the shipper (the seller) used the carrier's bill of lading (BOL), it will certainly make reference to that tariff. In the tariff, it will state the carrier's maximum liabilty for new and used goods. $2/pound is actually on the higher end for used goods. Some carriers will go as low as $0.50/pound.

The problem you're going to face is that unless an exception was made is writing (typically on the BOL), the rules outlined on the tariff will take precedence. Disclosing their liability limitation is not something they are required to do for every shipment and for every new customer because the tariff is publicly available. By signing that BOL, seller/shipper agreed to the rules of that tariff.

I've gone through countless tariffs for my company and I can tell you that these tariifs are comprehensive. There are rules in them that I've yet to encounter, and my company handle thousands of shipments every month. So if you haven't done so, I suggest you ask for a copy and read the section about claims and liabilty.

#25 6 years ago

Good luck in court,im sure you will do well representing yourself.Sounds like you are dealing with a-holes,like I said the transport company were more than happy to pay me out because they were at fault and they obviously care about their customers.I would do the same if it was my business.

#26 6 years ago

I said previously using Day & Ross Transport which is Sameday. Usually used goods shipped are at the shippers risk @ $ per pound. Unless the truck burns to the ground or goods are stolen, you probably won't see more. I ship pins all the time across Canada coast to coast, you roll the dice & hope you don't crap out. I usually ship depot to depot for the lowest cost with Day & Ross.

For me its way cheaper to have any pin shipped that's more than 1 hour drive away.

#27 6 years ago

Thanks BooyaNY,

On the bill of lading it specifies they are only liable to $2/lb if the value is not filled out. This is what the company will try and rely on. The drivers directed the seller what fields to fill in which will supercede the written disclosure any day. If they didn't direct him how to fill out the form that may be a different story. Also, I'm the client, I ordered the shipping and I was the one who paid for the shipping but they never showed me the bill of lading or directed me to look at it. All they did was take the bill of lading to the guy who they picked the machine up from and told him what fields to fill in. You mentioned that unless there was an exception on the BOL they wouldn't be responsible but there is an exception on the BOL and when they are directing the shipper what to fill out and don't tell him fill out that section then that would supercede any tariff they are trying to rely on and I'm fairly certain that I learned that in law courses I took back in university. There is also the other issue, that they may not be responsible for expected bumps and bruises in the normal course of business but they do have a duty of care and driving into something with a forklift I doubt would be covered by that. I'm sure there are numerous ways in this instance that they will not be able to hide behind the small print that they never even showed me in the first place.

#28 6 years ago
Quoted from Scooby:

Thanks BooyaNY,
On the bill of lading it specifies they are only liable to $2/lb if the value is not filled out. This is what the company will try and rely on. The drivers directed the seller what fields to fill in which will supercede the written disclosure any day. If they didn't direct him how to fill out the form that may be a different story. Also, I'm the client, I ordered the shipping and I was the one who paid for the shipping but they never showed me the bill of lading or directed me to look at it. All they did was take the bill of lading to the guy who they picked the machine up from and told him what fields to fill in. You mentioned that unless there was an exception on the BOL they wouldn't be responsible but there is an exception on the BOL and when they are directing the shipper what to fill out and don't tell him fill out that section then that would supercede any tariff they are trying to rely on and I'm fairly certain that I learned that in law courses I took back in university. There is also the other issue, that they may not be responsible for expected bumps and bruises in the normal course of business but they do have a duty of care and driving into something with a forklift I doubt would be covered by that. I'm sure there are numerous ways in this instance that they will not be able to hide behind the small print that they never even showed me in the first place.

You make some strong arguments and I really do wish you the best of luck. Please do let us know the outcome. I'm in the business so situations like these are interesting to me.

What has Sameday done for you to help your with your case against the actual carrier? As your broker, they are supposed to help you anyway they can? When we file a claim, we're always pushing on behalf of our clients to ensure that they get the best possible settlement.

"Duty of care" is a new concept to me. I'll have to ask our lawyers about that. May be specific to Canada but I intend to find out more.

This reminds me of a case I handled about 3 years ago. A customer shipped a crate on behalf of an importer. Contents was described as "exhibition materials" . A forklift went through the crate and it was later discovered to contain unique artwork valued at over $3 million. The value of the goods and its exact content was never disclosed to us prior to shipping. Carrier's tariff specifically state that unique artwork is prohibited. The claim was denied and that carrier never paid a penny.

#29 6 years ago

Hi BooyaNY,

Sameday is the carrier, they are a division of Day & Ross Inc.

The case you are talking about is a little different as they did not disclose what the contents were nor the value. In my case, they knew it was a pinball as I told them it was and it was shipped with legs on so there is no way that they could not have known nor did they ever deny not knowing. In fact when they were preparing the quote, I wasn't sure of the dimensions so the guy preparing the quote (who was some kind of team leader or manager) told me he another client who shipped a pinball so he looked up in his file what the dimensions were. Actually, now that I think about it I had even asked them if they could prepare the shipment as the shipper had no supplies and they checked with the local terminal who said they could not so there was never any question as to whether they knew what they were shipping. I had the shipper go purchase some shipping supplies to package it up properly.

I'll keep you posted but I assume it is going to take a while unless their attorney tells them they are going to spend more in legal bills than it will cost them in damage or that they can not win.

By the way, I googled duty of care which is similar to standard of care and here is what came up in a legal dictionary:

duty of care n. a requirement that a person act toward others and the public with watchfulness, attention, caution and prudence that a reasonable person in the circumstances would. If a person's actions do not meet this standard of care, then the acts are considered negligent, and any damages resulting may be claimed in a lawsuit for negligence.

#30 6 years ago

Get new cabinet, new decals
And have restoration co do the work
Cost around 5k

#31 6 years ago

If you got shipment insured for the value
Of the game your going to be ok

No insurance , your screwed and get paid
By the pound for this thing

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 47.00

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside