(Topic ID: 147205)

Need Help With Sonic Butterfly. Won't Advance to Ball Two

By mstire

8 years ago


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#1 8 years ago

Hoping someone will me with 1977 Sonic (Williams) Butterfly

Coin up, hit the start button and everything resets as it should. All score reels reset to zero.
Ball feeds to shooter lane. Launch the ball, drain it, ball feeds to shooter lane but does not advance to ball two.
I can manually advance the ball count unit and it advances though balls 2-5. Can also ground the coil on the ball count unit and it advances so I know power is getting to the coils.

At one point it worked but the machine was not advancing players so I started cleaning things up a bit and created this new problem.

I went through all of the steppers on this machine and now all of them operate smoothly and snappy.

I don't have a schematic and usually struggle with reading and understanding them. Not sure who would even have a copy. There's not much info out there on this Spanish Sonic Butterfly.

I feel like I am right on the edge of getting this figured out but need some direction from the experts out there.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Mike

#2 8 years ago

Bump for some help. Not much help in my small community. Boise would be the closest place and that's two hours away.

I watched the switch action on every relay and switch stack. Took out the bottom board so I could better clean and watch the action of all the switches on the score motor. Everything appears to operate like it should.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Getting desperate!

#4 8 years ago

Thank you Dr,
I'll start hunting for a schematic. Maybe PB resource? I'm sure you're right about a dirty switch or out of adjustment. Any way to try and trace this backwards without a schematic? I struggle with making sense of them. Every switch stack on this machine has been tightened. Surprisingly they were all pretty tight already

#5 8 years ago

Dr,
I see by your collection you have a 1977 Sonic machine. Any chance you have a scanned copy of the schematic you would want to share?

They must be pretty close to the same.

#8 8 years ago

Thank you for you guidance Rolf. Yes, bonus counts down at end of ball.

Just placed an order with PBR for schematics. With the holidays and the distance between us I probably won't see them until next week.

I downloaded the "Faces" schematic and found everything at C-6 I need to look at. Williams "Space Mission" is very similar too.

Unfortunately I'm at work today and won't be able to look at it until tonight. I will post my findings then.

Mike

#9 8 years ago

Thanks Doc, got one on order.

2 weeks later
#10 8 years ago

Bump for my unsolved problem.
I have another problem in addition to my game not advancing to ball two.

At the top left of the game there is a hole with a kickout that advances bonus and kicks the ball out. When the ball lands in the hole it does not get kicked out and the bonus unit keeps running and never stops. I'm not sure if all these problems are related. I now have the schematics and the manual and have been carefully going through the suspect circuits.

I've taken out the bottom board and sat down at the bench with it under good light. Have taken every switch stack off the score motor to better inspect and clean the switches. Tugged at every solder tab and made sure none were bent and making contact where they shouldn't.

I pretty much did the same thing with every relay on the bottom board, play field and back box. Manually actuated literally every switch on this machine (power off) to watch it's action. All looks good. Went though all the stepper units as well. Dis-assembled, cleaned, 800 grit sandpaper on wiper traces with a light coat of teflon lube. They all work smoothly without hesitation.

I checked continuity on the wires from the steppers to the relays to the switches to the score motor on all the circuits I thought were relevant. No luck. Been trying to get this hammered out for weeks now and just about ready to kick it to the curb. Going to call it a night though as I'm too frustrated to look at it another minute.

Any help greatly appreciated.

#12 8 years ago

Thank you so much Rolf for your detailed explanation. At work right now but will be going home soon for lunch and let the dogs out.

While I'm home I'll trace the yellow wire from the hole eject back to the hole relay where it should make contact with w-blu and continue to score motor at 5-A. If positioned like drawing then 5-A should be open.

Basically do the same thing with the hole relay circuit. I'll check continuity on these wires as well. I'm not sure what I'm looking at that I boxed in green. Is it vital to this circuit? I'm sure it must be.

I will report back this afternoon.

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#14 8 years ago

Rolf, really appreciate your helping me out here.
Did my testing while home and have made no progress. I use a lamp with an alligator clip on one side and long sharp probe on the other. Makes it easy to get in tight places.

I traced each wire in both circuits from the coils on the right side of the chart to where the circuit ends on the left. Went so far as to take the switch stacks off the motor again at 5, 5 forward and index cams. I checked continuity though all the leaf switches. For example: put one lead on the yellow wire of the hole eject coil and the other lead on the w-blu at the hole relay. Light did not light. Manually actuate the relay and the light lights. Did the same thing with all wires in these two circuits.

Found something odd though. With the playfield up I can mock start a game, hit the out hole to kick out the imaginary ball, hit a couple switches on the playfield then actuate the hole eject switch. Bonus unit maxes out and keeps running. Kick out does not kick however if I let it keep cycling like this and hold the hold relay in the kick out starts kicking with every revolution of the score motor as long as I keep holding it in.

I don't know what to make of this.

Here's a picture of C-1B I asked about earlier in the green square. Something I should be looking at?

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#15 8 years ago

Rolf, I'll try jumping that switch tonight and report back.

#17 8 years ago

Rolf, this is a lot to absorb so I will go through it a couple times in my spare minutes at work and try these tests when I come home for lunch.

Sorry about the wrong snippet. That 8 looked like a B to me. Now looking back, that doesn't make sense.

I will report back my findings.

#18 8 years ago

Rolf, you have much patience and I can tell you like a challenge. I hope you're not getting sick of me yet.

To start I'll clean up post 14 and include a pic of C-18 from the schematics. Yes, I did a typing error and meant hole relay, not hold relay.
Yes, if I simulate the ball being kicked out of the playfield hole the hole relay quits pulling.bf4_(resized).jpgbf4_(resized).jpg

I have the two heavy yellow wires on the transformer and used that for a test point. Tests 1,2 and 3 all test good. For test 3, when the hole relay is activated the hole kicker fires and the relay stays pulled in for one revolution of the score motor.

Test 4 was negative so I would assume test 5 would be as well but I did it anyway.............negative. With my test lead connected for tests 4 and 5 I pulled the power lead to the motor and rotated it by hand several revolutions. Game powered on and game started.

Was able to do these tests myself with a test clip similar to the one pictured. probe_(resized).jpgprobe_(resized).jpg

I know we found something out here but I don't know what.

Thanks, Mike

#20 8 years ago

Hello again Rolf.
This machine is definitely worth keeping alive. The back glass is next to perfect and the playfield is also next to perfect. The coin door is really nice but the cabinet is maybe a 6 or 7 out of 10. The artwork is all pretty descent. Had one broken plastic that I reproduced and I think you would have a hard time telling which one it was. The rest are very good. Mechanics and wiring are all very good with no hacks.

Sorry, enough of that nonsense.

I'm glad you asked me to do test 4 again. I did everything like I posted in #19 but in my haste I did not activate the eject switch while rotating the motor. Now the eject solenoid fires when I rotate the motor. Good. Move on to test 5 and move my lead to the other leaf at 5A. Start a game, activate the hole switch and rotate the motor. The eject solenoid does not fire. It seems this implies there is bad connection at 5A contacts when closed but I closed the contacts and touched my test light to both leafs and have continuity.

Hope to talk to you tomorrow Rolf.

#23 8 years ago

Another day starting. must be about 3:00 or 4:00 pm where you are. Happy tomorrow is the weekend so I can have more time to work on this project.

So it looks like I have my focus area. To re-state, I have taken every switch stack, one at a time off the motor (9 of them) to clean, inspect solder and to verify proper action. All were properly tightened. I will be putting the bottom board back on the bench tomorrow and pull that stack for another look if at lunch time your string test does not ẃork.

Wish me luck.

#24 8 years ago

Good news Rolf! I hope

I did your string test as suggested. I added to the drawing the lobe that rides on the #5 cam

First I looped the string under the green lobe and pulled up to make the "A" switch connect. No change

Then I looped the string under the blue switch blade and pulled up and the hole eject solenoid fired.

Tomorrow morning I will wake early and get that bottom board back on the bench and find out what's going on.

You have taught me many things during this process Rolf. Most importantly how to troubleshoot in a more logical manner as well as the value of the "snippet" with highlights. You are a good tutor.

I still expect to have other issues after I fix this one but will try to plow through them and fix them myself. Who knows, maybe I will be lucky.

Thank you Rolf. I will report my findings.

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#26 8 years ago

Rolf, I have good news and bad news.
The bad news is my problem persists. Took motor 5 switch stack apart and made sure the "A" switch was perfect. I believe it was already good. I removed the bottom board and put it on the bench then started with the motor. One by one I checked continuity between each and every pair of switch blades ( 3 blades for the make /break) my test light would go on and off as it should as I rotated the motor. I found one switch that needed adjustment and adjusted it, seemingly unrelated.

While I had the bottom board out I did the same thing to every relay and switch contact on that board so I do not have to remove it again. All good.

The good news................. put everything back together, lowered the playfield and started a game. All good (except playfield hole eject), the ball even advances to ball 2, 3, 4and 5.

That was great so I started a 4 player game with 5 balls and cycled through all twenty balls and everything worked fine unless my ball landed in the playfield hole. If that happened I just reached in, flipped it out and continue to play.

So what is now happening ..... when the ball is hit into the hole the bonus unit keeps advancing until it maxes out but keeps cycling until the ball is removed. Does not kick out.

I'm not sure but it seems to me when the ball lands in the playfield hole it should collect the bonus until the bonus unit is at zero then maybe at zero the ball would be kicked out?.

Does this make sense to you? Seems like something is backwards.

Any thoughts?

Mike

#29 8 years ago

Thank you for not giving up on me Rolf!

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

You can start a 1-player game and play through the balls 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> Game-Over (?)
You can start a 2-player game and play through the balls and players -> -> -> Game-Over (?)
You can start a 3-player game ... (?) You can start a 4-player game (?). Please write about.

This is correct however occasionally when I start a one player game it wants to start with player two and alternate between player one and two through the five balls. I believe this to unrelated and will work that issue out later.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I must ask - IS IT ONLY the "Eject-Hole feature NOT working" ?

This is also correct. The game plays great and every feature and switch appears to work as it should. When the game is over the bonus ladder counts down and bonus is collected. The ONLY problem as far as I can tell is the hole feature in the upper left corner of the playfield not kicking out the ball.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

A) ONE bonus is stepped-up on the Bonus-Ladder and 1000 points are given to the Score-Reels.
IF (if) only ONE light there is ligted: You get A) ONCE.
IF (if) exactly TWO lights are ligted: You get A) TWO TIMES.
IF (if) exactly THREE lights are ligted: You get A) THREE TIMES.
IF (if) exactly FOUR lights are ligted: You get A) FOUR TIMES.
IF (if) all five lights are ligted: You get ??? - I cannot read - maybe You get 5 Bonus PLUS 10'000 Points - Maybe You get ONLY 10'000 Points, but no Bonus ?)

This I can not validate because when the ball lands here the score motor and the bonus unit keep cycling until I remove the ball.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:I DO NOT READ ON THE PLAYFIELD ABOUT: Bonus is STEPPED DOWN !!! I think You are guessing wrong - I believe: Bonus is given when the ball leaves the playfield (Outhole).

I think you are correct here.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:I believe: You have a "modern (nice and friendly) pin: EVERY BALL starts with "ONE Bonus is (already) given".

This is nice to know. Each game does start with one bonus. I thought this might be a problem I would have to look into.

I hope these images will help. Pretty soon you will have the whole schematics. Please let me know if I missed anything or if there is something else you might need.

Mike

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#31 8 years ago

Here is a photo of the beast that gives me much grief. How can such a thing of beauty do that?

I stripped the playfield of all hardware, deep cleaning, wax and buff. No touch up needed. The plastic above the drop targets was broken in two pieces so the one you see is my reproduction. Check out the bumper caps. They appear to be deformed or melted from the lamps. They are both identical and in perfect shape. Are they supposed to be that way or was there a problem with mold? I am sure this will always be a mystery.

I did not spend any time on this project today as I felt the need to just walk away and take a break.

Thanks for the input on the player 2 issue. I will certainly pursue that after the current issue is resolved.

Maybe tomorrow will be a brighter day.

Mike

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#33 8 years ago

Thanks Dr. for sharing some good points. I really don't think the random player one or player two issue is related to the playfield hole eject not working. Sometimes the game will reset and start perfectly on player one and I can play a great game, minus the ball eject . If the game resets and starts with player two I can still play a great five ball game, minus the ball eject. I will be pursuing that problem as well though.

Everything else is working 100%

I never really paid attention to the back side of the blades. It dawned on me earlier that a loose contact could certainly cause problems. I have gotten fairly intimate with EVERY SINGLE contact in this game. Inspect, clean and very few actually needed adjustment. I did not however probe around at the contact points but will try that on all the points of interest to see if I can find something.

Yes, Rolf has been overly patient with me and I appreciate all the help he has given me.

Are you talking about the plastic/metal step arms on the score motor? Yes, that is what mine are. The last 2 on the motor are all metal.

Thanks, Mike

#36 8 years ago

Yeah, I figured that out while reading a post you and Rolf posted in. Member "aytsgamer" and his Super Straight.

Honestly Rolf, I have to wonder when you sleep. It looks like you you help out a lot of people with their projects .

Thanks for the theory of operation Rolf. I need to let that soak in and follow these steps carefully as you describe. One step at a time. Will try to do that tomorrow.

Mike

2 months later
#38 8 years ago

Yes, got that issue fixed. It's been a while and I can't remember what the exact fix was but I went through the steppers again and it cleared it up. there must have been one switch out of adjustment.

Turns out I sold this machine. A guy drove 10.5 hours each way from Colorado Springs to Twin Falls, ID to pick it up. I thought he was crazy to drive that far for a $450 machine.

The machine still had one problem that I started another thread on and couldn't fix but he did. It was the kick out hole in the top left of the playfield would not kick the ball out.

He's happy with the machine.

#39 8 years ago

I should have re-read my thread.
The advance to ball 2 got fixed. The ou thole kicker did not get fixed by me and that problem was on this thread, not another.

I emailed back and forth with the buyer and he explained the the fix. I'll explain it here the best I can based on what he told me.

There are about 9 wheels on the score motor and a switch stack for each wheel. All of these stacks are screwed down with 2 screws.
I think it was score wheel 5 switch A that was the problem. There are two sets of mounting holes for the problem stack. The way I had it mounted was in line with all the other stacks. The other set of holes allowed the stack to sit forward a little from all the other stacks.

Moving it forward apparently allows for a longer duration of contact needed to fire the eject. Works perfect now.

Hope this makes sense. He wasn't clear with me exactly which stack was the fix.

This problem could have been my own doing as while I was going through this machine nothing was left untouched. Everything was disassembled.

Live and learn.

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