(Topic ID: 86377)

Need help with pinball scores for Pin Golf tourney


By lfrank22001

5 years ago



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  • 17 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by LOTR_breath
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#1 5 years ago

Dear Pinside,

I have 11 (and soon will have 12) pinball machines. I want to set up a Pin Golf tourney, but I need some basic scores to set the Pro, Average, and Novice Par 1, Par, 2, and Par 3 scores. Does anyone have any information on what were the high scores or scores in qualifying rounds for tourneys for the following machines?

Paddock 1969 Williams
Centigrade 37 1977 Gottleib
Joker Poker 1978 Gottleib
Cyclone 1988 Williams
Bad Cats 1989 Williams
Black Knight 2000 1989 Williams
Elvira and the Party Monsters 1989 Bally (Midway)
Diner 1990 Williams
Addams Family 1992 Bally (Midway)
Black Rose 1992 Bally (Midway)
Theatre of Magic 1995 Bally (Midway)
AC DC “Luci” 2013 Stern

Thanks!

Lee

Lee Frank
Bloomfield, NY

#2 5 years ago

I'm confused by your question, pin golf is scored by strokes, not scores on games.

#3 5 years ago

strokes to reach X target score, typically

#4 5 years ago

I'm confused as well but i'll take a stab at understanding and answering.

If you have games set to 3 balls and you want to make 3 different tiers like top 500 IFPA ranking play the pro score, 500-2000 ifpa ranking play the average score and over 2000 ifpa ranking play the Novice score.

If that's what your trying to do there is a bit of guesswork in it.

For AC/dc i would say a novice pin golf score would be 8 million, average pin golf score would be 15 - 20 million and a pro score would be 30-40 million. Depends on how tough the game is set up.

personally i like pin golf objectives to be non-score based. For ac/dc the novice objective might be starting one of the multi-balls, average objective might be getting the play field to 3x scoring.

#5 5 years ago

Also for pin golf if some of the games could be set to 5 balls and make the objective or score higher i think that's fun too.

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from Noahs_Arcade:

strokes to reach X target score, typically

Hmm, that's not typical at all in my experience, pin golf tournaments that I'm used to are always objective based. IMHO it makes it a lot more interesting, and it levels the playing field, because you can explain the objective to everyone and you don't need to specific knowledge of the machine to be able to do it. Scoring will always favor people who know the scoring strategies. Fine for pros, not so much fun for including everyone, so I guess you gotta figure out your audience and goal.

#7 5 years ago

I had a golf tourney for one of my kids parties one year. A couple of days before the party i had 3 kids play every game one time. I took the average of all 3 per game and made that the score for par. If they reached that score on ball 2 then they got a birdie or an eagle if on ball one.

#8 5 years ago

Thanks for all the feedback so far!

To clarify. We do Handicapped Pin Golf here in Upstate.

So usually it is score based, not objective based.

There are different scores for Beginner, Average, and Pro to get Par 1 (reach score on one ball), Par 2 (2nd ball), Par 3 (3rd ball), the dreaded circle 4 (didn't reach the score). People do each machine and get a score of 1-4. They add up their scores, the person with the lowest score wins. In case of a tie there is a play off.

But some of my machines are older, so even finding scores from tourneys (generally better players used to set the Pro scores -- the others are scaled down) is hard.

Here's some of what I am thinking of doing.

Paddock 1969 Williams
Objective Based:
Pro: Light A B C D, hit 300 point center bonus "Lit" on ABCD target, and complete 1 race (10 dots or advances on racetrack). Par 1 on 1 ball, Par 2 on 2 balls, Par 3 on 3 balls, circle 4 did not complete.
Average: Light A B C D, hit 300 point center bonus "Lit" on ABCD target. No race requirement. Rest same.
Novice: Light A B C D, no bonus shot, no race requirement, rest same.

Centigrade 37 1977 Gottleib
Objective Based:
Pro: Light A B C D, hit 1,000 point upper right "Special When Lit" drop hole, "Advance" thermometer via left hand drop targets OR outlanes. Par 1 on 1 ball, Par 2 on 2 balls, Par 3 on 3 balls, circle 4 did not complete.
Average: Light A B C D, hit 1,000 point upper right "Special When Lit" drop hole. No thermometer requirement. Rest same.
Novice: Light A B C D, no bonus shot, no thermometer requirement, rest same.

For the rest: probably use score based

AC DC Premium “Luci” 2013 Stern
Score Based
Pro based on average of Top 30 scores logged on Pinside. For AC DC 553,151,228 for Pro, 50% for average, 25% for Novice.
Pro: Score 550,000,000 Par 1 - 1 ball, Par 2 - 2nd ball, Par 3 - 3rd ball, circle 4 did not complete.
Average: 275,000,000 rest same.
Novice: 137,500,000 rest same.

Addams Family 1992 Bally (Midway)
Score Based
Pro based on average of Top 30 scores logged on Pinside. For Addams 1,166,560,398 for Pro, 50% for average, 25% for Novice.
Pro: Score 1,150,000,000 Par 1 - 1 ball, Par 2 - 2nd ball, Par 3 - 3rd ball, circle 4 did not complete.
Average: 580,000,000 rest same.
Novice: 290,000,000 rest same.

Theatre of Magic 1995 Bally (Midway)
Score Based
Pro based on average of Top 30 scores logged on Pinside. For Addams 3,765,390,340 for Pro, 50% for average, 25% for Novice.
Pro: Score 3,750,000,000 Par 1 - 1 ball, Par 2 - 2nd ball, Par 3 - 3rd ball, circle 4 did not complete.
Average: 1,880,000,000 rest same.
Novice: 940,000,000 rest same.

Not sure if I should go objective or go to score.
Joker Poker 1978 Gottleib

Rest will probably be score
Cyclone 1988 Williams
Bad Cats 1989 Williams
Black Knight 2000 1989 Williams
Elvira and the Party Monsters 1989 Bally (Midway)
Diner 1990 Williams
Black Rose 1992 Bally (Midway)

So what do people think?

Do objectives look reasonable?

Do scores look reasonable?

This is just a starting point. After each tourney I'll adjust scores based on different players and re-group players based on their scores so I can more effectively do the handicapping.

But I'd like the starting points to be tough... but do-able.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Lee

#9 5 years ago

One other persepecitve. I contacted the IFPA via Facebook.

Josh suggested I used the replay scores as a basis. I'll probably do some combination of the above and use the Replays as a check.

Lee

----------------------------------------------

Hi Lee,

The best advice I can offer is to look at the Replay scores of the games, and then use a percentage of that for the Par scores. We've typically done 90% for pro, 80% for Average, 70% for Novice and it's worked out well.

Good luck!
Josh Sharpe
IFPA President

#10 5 years ago

Hi Lee,
I think the scores you have set are very high, based on the scores I would look to be getting, and I consider myself a very good player. Scoring over 1B on TAF on one ball - No Chance

The High/Average scores for those machines that have been used in the UK Pinball League over the last 7 years are:
Joker Poker 295,830 - 135,906
Bad Cats 47,055,510 - 4,522,125
BK2000 27,129,050 - 1,736,400
Diner 14,285,190 - 4,353,734
Addams 670,932,460 - 71,446,018
Black Rose 180,464,990 - 18,133,100
AC/DC 154,805,140 - 26,611,524
TOM 2,089,095,580 - 503,536,645

The players in the league range from all of the best in the country right through to their children and partners who turn up more for the social.
All of the scores recorded are under competition rules/environment as opposed to the scores on Pinside which are the best scores people have achieved after who knows how many games (assuming they have actually achieced it with the glass on
For example my best score on No Fear at home is over 13B my best score in 2 competitions is a little over 1B, the same is true for all machines I have owned or played at a friends. Mainly due to the number of games played outside of competition. I saw the game on Bad Cats 47m, and there is unlikely to be a score like that at all, the average is only 10%.

I think Josh's suggestion of basing it on the machines replay scores is workable, depending on the quality of players who play the game the most - the better the player the higher the replay value will be set at, so 90% may be high or it could be low

If you want to go down the target route I would suggest, for the machines I know well enough to comment on

Joker Poker - Knock down all of the Aces
BK2000 - Light Extra Ball
Diner - Start Multiball
TAF - Get a train wreck
Black Rose - Sink a ship
TOM - Vanish Multiball
AC/DC - Change a song

Each of the goals on the machine should be as different as possible from the other machines' goals.

Your score is however many balls it takes you to reach the goal - Lowest overall score wins, handicaps can be set to differentiate between players perceived skill levels.
Where possible I would set the number of balls to the maximum (10 if it allows) so that the lesser players get more time to achieve the goal and actually set a score rather than just not achieving it over the 3 balls. It will also punish the better players for not achieving them. Otherwise you will most likely end up with lots of ties. It has worked well in every Pin tournament I've entered, which have included some with over 50 entrants.

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from WJxxxx:

Hi Lee,
I think the scores you have set are very high, based on the scores I would look to be getting, and I consider myself a very good player. Scoring over 1B on TAF on one ball - No Chance

Agreed. Bring down those scores or you'll have a 10 way tie of people that couldn't meet any target scores. WJxxxx's numbers look more in line to me.

#12 5 years ago

If you are looking for target scores I think these would be reasonable for all skill levels of players. You can maybe increment them by 15-30% for the top players and decrement them by 15-30% for the bottom players.

Centigrade 37 - 60,000
Joker Poker - 80,000
Cyclone - 1,000,000
Bad Cats - Just ditch this game from Pin Golf entirely, it's too random
BK2K - 1,000,000
EATPM - 5,000,000
Diner - 5,000,000
Addams Family - 80,000,000
Black Rose - 15,000,000
Theater of Magic - 400,000,000
ACDC - 50,000,000

Some of these scores might be too high or too low based on how your machines are set up. If the machines are set up to be pretty easy, I would add 10-15% to all of the scores as a baseline. If they are very hard, I would just leave the scores as-is. The average stroke count might be higher but they should still be attainable. If the scores seem low in general to you, keep in mind that it's pretty hard for most players to consistently achieve these scores on ball 1 or 2. I don't think you'll have to worry about having perfect-score ties or anything with the numbers I provided, and hopefully the scores are low enough so that newer players don't get discouraged.

EDIT: I see that you are doing a system where scores are capped at 4 for failing to reach the score within a game. Although this is very beginner friendly, I would actually suggest capping the scores at 7 and allowing a player to play a second game to add to their first game's score if they fail to reach the score within the first 3 balls. This gives you a little more fudge room with the scores as a slightly too hard score will result in 4-6s instead of all 4s. Additionally, it's better for the advanced players as well because it allows for a more fine-grained demonstration of their skills on a game.

#13 5 years ago

THANKS FOR ALL THE INPUT!!!\

FWIW: here's a link to my new Pin Golf Score sheet and instructions. 1/2 page print 2 sided. Page 3 is more info on scores for each game. Page 4 and 5 is how many different tourneys you can do with 9 machines out of 12. (answer... 220!)

http://www.leefrank.net/PDFs/Pin%20Golf.pdf

I decided to use the initial replay value as the 1 ball goal for pros. 50% for average and 25% of that for novice.

Set some objectives for the older games.

Will adjust as my own group of players plays.

Lee

#14 5 years ago

Will be interesting to see how the comp plays out, I suspect a lot of ties.

#15 5 years ago

Yeah... I was hoping for some better data for starting out... but I'll just have to start with this and then modify as we go along for our group of players.

L

#16 5 years ago

For another variety of pin golf-style format, you could also try pin bowling.

Pick a target score (make sure it's easily divisible by 10).

On a player's ball 1, if they reach the target score, they get a STRIKE. Nice job.
If they don't reach the target score, they get 1-9 based on whichever 1/10 of target score they've passed.

On a player's ball 2, (if necessary) if they reach the target score, they get a SPARE.
If they don't reach the target score, they get 1-9 based on whichever 1/10 of target score they've passed, minus the bowling score from ball 1.

Typical bowling score format rules apply (STRIKE counts next two balls' scores in the STRIKE frame, SPARE counts next one ball in SPARE frame).

Example: on Frame 1 of Centigrade 37 with target score of 60,000, if Player 1 scores 53,000, they get an "8" and play their ball 2. On ball 2 they score over 60,000, so they get a SPARE for that frame.

On Frame 2 of Joker Poker with target score of 80,000, Player 1 scores over 80,000 on ball 1, they get a STRIKE.
Thus, their Frame 1 score is 20. They don't play their ball 2.

On Frame 3 of Cyclone with target score of 1,000,000, Player 1 scores 255,000 on ball 1, and has a final score of 525,000 after ball 2. They get scores of 2 and 3 on this frame, for a total of 5. Their Frame 2 score is 15 (10+2+3), their Frame 3 score is 5, and their total score after Frame 2 is 35, and total score after Frame 3 is 40.

have fun!

#17 5 years ago

Congrats on trying a different format. We are hosting our 3rd annual pin-golf classic in Birmingham soon. Attached is our score card, minus the actual pin names(we don't want to give that away too early).

It seems you are missing one of the coolest parts of the golf scoring concept. The opportunity to score "below par". That is why we use target on ball 1 = eagle, -2, target on ball 2 = birdie, -1, target on ball 3 = par, 0, failing to reach target = bogie, +1.

Also, using Pinburgh's pin-golf as an example, I don't think it is a good idea to limit strokes to a high number, like 6 as they did. You tend to get 1 or 2 VERY long playing games and there is a massive back-up of 4-6 groups waiting to play a game.

BTW, we allow extra balls to count as the ball in play. Example, fail to reach score on ball 2 but get an extra ball. Then reach score on that extra ball, then it is still a birdie.

Our last tourney, we had scores from -7 to +9. Ties for paying positions(top 4) are broken by sudden death playoff(played just like golf). Ties for non-paying positions are broken by A)most # of eagles, B)most # of birdies.

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