Hi Jason..have you lifted up the play field and heard any relays buzzing? It could be possibly that 1 contact could be stuck, or not making a contact to count points..I hope that this makes sense..

It should be a pinball rule that people new to EMs are not allowed to buy GP. We'd all be rich if we had a dollar for every post from someone who is new to EMs and buys a GP, then has to try and fix it and comes here.

Good luck, dude, that's a really complex one. You dove right into the deep end...

you'll do alright, just go through everything, tighten switch stacks, clean/adjust all the contacts.
look at the step units, make sure they work manually ok, and switches are clean and adjusted.
frightened yet? it'l be ok, lots of knowledge floatin around here. and folks ready to help.
good luck. fun game to play.

Hi
Stevefury made an excellent video about starting an Williams Space Mission - well worth studying as the Grand Prix is similar:

The JPG shows the path to get some thousands of points, greetings Rolf

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Hi Jason
the "Stevefury video i mentioned": IF (if) You want to learn (everything) about the Start-up Sequence of an "Late Williams EM-Pin" ...
YOUR problem is "when playing" - means: The video is not for to help on Your problem.

Here http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/emTips.html - some good tips --- nice to read at a time (?)
Here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/ --- a LOT of stuff to read - for EM pins: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair
Here http://www.pinrepair.com/ --- a LOT of stuff to read - for EM pins: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm

Be happy as You have a WELL documented WILLIAMS LATE-EM - the manual cannot write everything (or it would turn out a very thick book).

What did I do - how to start looking-up - narrowing on the problem ?
I read in post-1 "draining (loosing) a ball (enters the Outhole) makes the Bonus-Ladder to be stepped down - BUT NO POINTS are added to the Score-Reels.

I know that the Score-Drums are resetted (stepped forward) with the Help of the Score-Motor and some Reset-Relays. I know that during play: ALL points are given to the Score-Drums THROUGH (pulling) 10-Point-RELAY, 100-Point-RELAY, 1000-Point-RELAY (maybe 10'000-Point-Relay).
So I did look-up the 1000-Point-RELAY in the schematics - I followed the wirings in the schematics - looking out for something with the word "BONUS" - and I found what I show in post-6.

Lets do together what I expect(ed) You to do - http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1072/Williams_1976_Grand_Prix_Manual.pdf - page-12 (ori-10) is about "WHERE in the pin is mounted WHAT (relay or stepper)" - Mech. Panel is the bottom board in the cabinet, Playfield is playfield, Insert is backbox, Cabinet is side-wall or back-wall of cabinet, Front door is coin door.
In the JPG I have marked "Ball-Index-Relay" - it is in the (Mech Panel) Cabinet, the Left-Bonus-Relay is on the Playfield, No-1-Star-Relay is on the Playfield.

The manual shows (starting at page-25 (ori-23) all the relays - TAKE FROM MY JPG the COLOR of the wires - look it up (((do You find Ball-Index-Relay-Switch-D, Left-Bonus-Relay-Switch-1B, No-1-Star-Relay-Switch-E))). Investigate on the relays and the switches, greetings Rolf

I had your exact issue resolved here. I believe your issue is in the right and left bonus relays. They need adjusted as the switches in each of those that tell the points relays to fire aren't making good contact.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/grand-prix-not-starting-a-game#post-3461383

Hi Jason
I believe in the 50 - 50 rule.
On a Normally-Closed switch: The moved blade has "first half of its way contact" and has the "second half of the way NO contact".
On a Normally-Open switch: The moved blade has "first half not (yet) contact" - closes and has the remaing way - the second half: Has contact.
On a Make-and-Brake-Switch: I am happy when it functions.

I may adjust an Normally-Closed switch to 60 - 40 (or maybe to 70 - 30).
I may adjust an Normally-Open switch to 40 - 60 (or maybe 30 - 70).
The keyword is "Self-Cleaning" (of the contacts) when we play the pin and the relays actuate, want to see
here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1965-bowl-a-strike-crazy-at-startup#post-3231326 , greetings Rolf

Hi Jason
do NOT adjust switchblades "just because You are in the mood for adjusting" --- ONLY adjust when You had a problem in the pin - You have found the cause of the problem - and for to fix the problem: You must adjust a "wrong / maladjusted switchblade". Greetings Rolf

Like Rolf said. Only adjust the relay's switches that isnt working properly.

They way I do it is get an understanding from the diagram of what switches should be NO and which ones should be NC

For a switch that is supposed to be NO, i manually activate the relay by using that plastic housing. that shouldn't have to travel far at all in order for the NO switch blades to make contact. Also make sure that all NO switches are making contact at the same time.

For NC switches, just make sure they are closed, and then open with the same amount of travel from the relay plastic housing as the NO switches need to close.

I hope that helps.

If it's working, don't touch anything in it. Haha

Hi Jason +
an nice example of "reading schematics" and "NON-typical adjustment of an Normally-Closed-Switch".

You know the "Game-Over-Light in the Backbox" - You play a game - play ball after ball and when the last ball is lost: The Pin does step to "Ball after last ball" and so (green stuff): Game-Over-TRIP-Coil is activated - the relay trips - "Game-Over".
Not so often - but may happen - You play a 1-player-game - You play the first ball, make only some 20 to 40 points and You loose the ball - the pin gives You "Ball-2". You are angry and say "I do NOT want to play the remaining balls --- I START a new game". (((The manufacurers NEED the pin in state "Game-Over" to start a new game))).
The "orange stuff" happens: You press the Replay-Button - this makes the Coin-Relay pull, the Ball-Count-Unit is in "Position-Ball-2 equals Position-1" - therefore NOT in Position-ZERO - so switch is closed and the Game-Over-TRIP-Coil is activated (THEN comes the Start-up Procedure for starting the new game).

Now the tricky "reading schematics" - the "red stuff". On top of the snippet we see: "Coil-on-Lock-Relay is ALWAYS feeded with electricity --- what is my "red ? marked" Switch on Lock-Relay good for ? How does this "red wiring" works ?

The schematics is shown "a 1-player-game has been started, ball is in the shooter alley ready to be launched - AND NOW: THE 110VAC-POWER IS CUT (toggled-off or line cord unplugged)".
We see the schematics - NO electricity - Lock-Relay (and others) NOT pulling, "red ? switch" therefore is closed. We toggle-on the pin - the Lock-Relay starts pulling, Yes --- BUT this switch is adjusted "(60-40 much better is 70-30) 80-20 (90-10)" - the switch opens LATE - through this switch (80-20 opening LATE) the Game-Over-Relay-TRIP-Coil also gets current and the relay TRIPS.

So almost every switch in the pin can be adjusted "50-50" --- BUT "Switch on Lock-Relay" must be adjusted somewhere (60-40, 70-30) 80-20 (90-10). Greetings Rolf

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Hey Jason I'm working on a Grand Prix now too. Since I got it the left side bonus count never worked, I could roll up the bonus to 50k but when it came to get the points I'd get 5k only. Then I noticed the right side was counting down and giving the bonus scores as they was suppose to. Further visual inspection revealed a missing spring. I went to my spring stash found a suitable replacement, installed and it now works woo hoo! So I have learned a few things since cracking open my first machine,
1 - messing with switches can make it worse and you have no idea what you did<sigh>, tighten the switch stack before you do anything complicated then get complicated
2 - there is more than switches, there are springs and clips, they both contain energy, when they are not attached properly, that energy is released they both enter the fifth dimension never to be seen again...<sigh>
3- Finding a specific wire colour on a 40 year old pinball is like herding cats. They have no discipline and they like hiding.
4- The rewards of solving the problem are awesomely addicting, the frustration of not solving the problem can build but... it's a hobby right, relax enjoy, walk away and come back later.

I've had my game for awhile, by the standards I'm reading in pinside it's condition is prolly 'lower than pondscum' and should have been scrapped, it never worked right, the person who had it before me used fat blue elastic bands for the rubber, but, I've got nowhere to go but up so I too am attempting the impossible. And loving it!

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Williams 4 player games typically have the following:

Coin Unit Stepper is located on the bottom board in the body of the game. It's basic function is to control the number of players. Home position is a one player game.

Ball Count Unit is located on the bottom board in the body of the game. It counts the balls..home position is ball one.

Player Unit Stepper is in the head of the game. It routes the scoring and lamps to the player reels. Home position is for player one.

If two people are playing a 4 player machine, the Coin Unit Stepper will remain in the 2nd position for the entire game. The Player Unit will alternate between the home and 2nd position as the ball count increments.

Hope this helps.

Hi Jason +
I was writing my text NOT knowing about "bonzo71, post-26".

Hi Jason
we are lucky - the Grand Prix is a rather modern pin - a good schematics and a very good manual --- both is shown in ipdb: http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1072
Look at the manual - page-5 (ori-3): The Adj-Jack for Number-Match is in the Backbox.

Post-25 "Where are the relays ???" --- Look at the ipdb-manual at page-12 (ori-10): "Mech. Panel" is bottom board in the cabinet, "Playfield" is playfield, "Insert" is Backbox, "Cabinet" is sidewall or backwall of cabinet, "Front Door" is front door.

"Problem with player-3 / player-4" --- question - "AAA": When Player-3 looses the ball - THEN sometimes the pin steps to Player-4 - sometimes it does not step to Player-4. "BBB": When Player-3 is happily playing - ALL of a sudden (while playing): pin steps to Player-4.
Do You have "AAA" or do You have "BBB", greetings Rolf

Hi Jason
You write "having AAA" - BUT the description "sometimes during bonus count / side saucer" makes me think of "BBB". Please explain once more.
Trouble-shooting having "AAA" is rather simple, trouble-shooting having (weird, rare) BBB is looking on other places (as when we would have AAA).
In Switzerland it is 20 minutes to midnight - I must go to sleep - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

If you manually advance the player unit by pushing the plunger into the coil, does it advance to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th player positions?

Have you seen this video about steppers? The player unit is a total reset stepper as described starting at 1:58. In the total reset stepper section of the video he shows a Williams unit first that is sticky and not working well and then a Bally that is functioning properly.

Hi Jason
I agree with bonzo71 (post-32) - probably a mechanical problem.
ONLY LOOK at the JPG: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-toledo-start-up-issues#post-3505764 --- my Replay-Unit has a spring wound around the axis - my "curved green lines" - the one on the right (going up) can be un-hooked and then beeing tightened or loosened one turn or several turns.
Want to try: Unhook and LOOSEN one turn and then hook-on again. Then try the pin.
May want to LOOSEN one more turn ? May want to loosen one more turn ?
WRITE DOWN how many turns You have loosened - so You can return to original state (tightening again).

IF (if) the mentioned above does NOT help: See the JPG in here --- the NON-pleasing word You use is "sometimes" - such problems (word: sometimes) are hard to troubleshoot.
I still have the theory "mechanical problem" --- to prove my theory "right" or prove it "wrong": SteveFury shows his testlight: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425 --- mounting as shown in my JPG - looooong wires, taking the wires and the testlight through the open coin-door into the open - lay the testlight on the apron AND PLAY MANY GAMES:
EVERY TIME the fault shows up (no stepping) - AAA:Testlight did light-up, BBB:Testlight did NOT light-up.
You have AAA: It is a mechanical problem.
You have BBB: NON-pleasing, hard to find problem in the wiring.

So I would FIRST try the "loosen the spring around the axis" - I hope for "Luck" as the problem (hopefully) dissapears, greetings Rolf

P.S. - JPG, marked "green": The switches do operate now and then when playing a ball, marked "red": THIS switch beeing TRUELY OPEN (when playing a ball) hinders "strange, unwanted stepping".

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Hello All,
I am also start working on my new toy the Grand Prix. Just bought the pin and did open the backbox and the first thing i did see is the yellow wire hanging around and i assume it should be attached somewhere.
I am studying at the moment on a course for reading schematics but it is still not clear for me, as mechanical engineer , electric schematics is something to get used to. The course has been started because of a problem with blowing fuses in my Student Prince.

I have attached a pricture of the loose yellow wire, does somebody know were it should be connected to.

Thanks, Hans

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Hello Jason,

Thank you very much for the photo's this is exact what i was looking for. The 3rd picture makes it all clear, it needs at the switch.
I will solder the wire to the switch tonight and see what the machine will do. Just installed new rubbers last night so put the power on.

Thanks again for the help.

Hans

Hello Jason,
The photo,s did help perfectly and it solved a view issues in the machine but unfortantly not everything. The previous owner did removed some connections or short a view things. I did found out at the jet bumpers some weird wiring what had been solved but now at the left bonus unit i find new things. I did attached a photo of the thing but my question is will you help me again with a few pictures from the bonus unit so I can what it should look like. Thanks Hans

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Hello Jason,
This is exactly what in needed. Thank you very much, this will help a lot. I will work on the unit today and that should be the last item to get the machine running smoothly again.
Keep you up dated on the proces. Thanks again for the support.

Hans

Hello Jason,
The photo's did help very good and the unit is running smoothly, but as mentioned by others on previous comments, the Grand Prix is a difficult machine.
The restauration is going well but everytime something new looks to appear.

I did not noticed it earlier but probably the problem was already there, the 10 point drum is counting but the 1 point and the 100 , 1000 and 10000 points not ( this is the player 1 game modus , i did not check in the player 2,3 and 4 ). You can understand the coming question, does you or somebody know what cause this problem or where i can found it inside the machine.

Thanks for all the help

Hans

Jason,

Thank for the answer, i did indeed downloaded the diagram ( but still i am learning how to read these diagrams ) and have found the relay's in the back box. I did a good inspection if there was no miss alignment or wrong switch set up but did not found anything so this should be oke, and did no adjustment on this as i did read , if it is not broken do not repair it.

I did not check the player unit disc, i will do this tonight after work.

What also happend is that the machine starts up for a first time at the day and looks like to work and resets but when i do this for a second time then the relays as mentioned in the back box keeps firing all the time and i do need to switch off the pin to let it stop. When i wait for some time and put the pin on again sometimes it resets and looks oke but sometimes the machine starts firing the metioned relays over and over again.

I think the multi player disc could be a serious suspect in this. Could this unit then also be the cause of the continous firing of the relays.

To be continued

Hans

Did check the player unit tonight and found some loose connections, see the photo attached, solder it on.
Did also some checking if the player unit was adjusted well and found only the loose connections.

I did put the machine on again and found out that the 3 relays in the back ( see photo ) who are not running pulled in and the one who is turning was not pulled in.
The second from the left is the one who is running and not pulled in.

I am a bit lost to be honest and need to study the schematics i am afraid.

Is there also a possibilty that the disc is wrong connected at the unit so the pins are wrong at the riffets

Hans

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