(Topic ID: 294676)

Need help with Bally Start-Up Sequence

By F-14Pin

13 days ago


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  • Latest reply 5 days ago by F-14Pin
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Score Adj Plug (resized).jpg
Score Adj (resized).jpg
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Captain Fantastic Outhole relay (resized).jpg
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Outhole Relay (resized).jpg
Captain Fantastic Coin relay (resized).jpg
Coin Door Wiring_LI (resized).jpg

#1 13 days ago

1) Capt Fantastic
2) Powers up w/ playfield and back box lighting
3) Four credits show on the credit ring.
4) Players 1,2,3,4 have scores, nothing reads all zeros.
5) Dropping coin in #1 or #2 coin slot sends coin to the return chut. If coin mechanism is removed coin drops correctly. Coin drop Micro-Switch is working or clicking when manually pulled down.
6) All fuses are good
7) I also don’t have AC power at the service plug if this means anything or I'm not probing it correctly.

I’m reading through Clay Harrell’s repairing EM games and am currently focused on the Bally Start-Up Sequence. Currently the game will not reset and start a new game when pushing the credit button on the coin door.

Clay says --> If the credit button is pushed (instead of coin being inserted) and there are credits, the credit relay will be energized which energizes the coin relay.
My credit button does nothing when pressed, bet I can tell there is not any AC power at this button to be redirected when pushed. Question --> Should there be power at the coin door button?

The attached picture is my coin door;
Green circle at left top – No AC power at this location
Red circle at left – Two wires disconnected?????????????????????
Red circle at top – One wire disconnected?????????????????????

Thanks for any insight, I’m new at troubleshooting EM Pins and learning as I go here. Drinking from a fire hose.

Dennis

Coin Door Wiring_LI (resized).jpg
#2 13 days ago

Figured out the coin drop issue, the coin lockout coil is not energized when the game is turned on. To be honest I don't think the coin door is getting any power. The jones plug looks good.

#3 11 days ago

So I figured out my Credit Button power problem and isolated that to the delay relay NC switch. Now when I press the Credit Button the credit relay pulls in briefly and that's about it, nothing else happens.

More reading and checking.

#4 11 days ago

The manual on IPDB.org describes the startup sequence. The next step is that the Credit relay should fire the Coin relay through this path:
Captain Fantastic Coin relay (resized).jpg
/Mark

#5 11 days ago

Mark, thank you for that path. I had success in getting the above loop in red working. I wasn't getting 50V at the coin relay when the credit relay was pulled in using the credit button. I lifted the score motor switch stack off and cleaned/filed all the contacts. Put it back together and the credit relay and coin reply pull in together when the credit button is pushed and the score motor rotates 180 deg and the coin stepper unit make one click.

Still no resetting of the score wheels or a game start so more deep diving of the manual and schematic. Baby steps.

Dennis

#6 10 days ago

Where I'm at today;

Power Off
1) Scores wheels showing values for players 1,2,3,4
2) Credits showing on credit wheel
3) Game Over Interlock relay latched

Power On
1) Game Over light on

Press Credit Button
1) Scores wheels for players 1,2,3,4 reset to zero. Player 2 10th & 100th digits cycle 7-8 times before stopping on all zeros.
2) Credit wheel decreases by 1 credit
3) Game Over Interlock relay unlatched
4) Player 1 light on
5) Ball 1 light on

Following along in the Bally manual and Clay's repair paper I think I'm at the Outhole start-up section. If I'm following along the steps and schematic correctly the Outhole SW is made (ball on top of switch behind flippers) that creates a path through the 8C SCM completing the circuit for the Outhole relay to pull in that in turn will operate the SCM sending power to the Outhole Kicker sending the ball to the trough.

None of the above is happening and so far my troubleshooting has been;
1) Verified continuity and operation of Outhole SW
2) Inspected 8C SCM and all appears good.
3) Jumped power to the Outhole coil and it pulled in.
4) Verified continuity between Outhole coil and Outhole SW
5) Verified continuity between Outhole coil and 8C SCM. I think that is good, tough switches to probe at.

Anyway, that's the wall I'm at today. Visiting a local pinball repair/sell business tonight on another subject and will ask about this. Might just need a house call from someone who knows more than me but for now I'm picking at this.

Dennis

#7 10 days ago

Good progress so far.

Quoted from F-14Pin:

the Outhole SW is made (ball on top of switch behind flippers) that creates a path through the 8C SCM completing the circuit for the Outhole relay to pull in that in turn will operate the SCM sending power to the Outhole Kicker sending the ball to the trough.

Don't overlook the switches on the Reset and Game Over relays in the Outhole relay coil path. They're between the black power rail wire and the 15/red-white wire on the Outhole relay coil lug.

Quoted from F-14Pin:

1) Verified continuity and operation of Outhole SW

Continuity isn't what you want to measure here. Unless you can measure an ohm or less of resistance across a switch when it's closed the switch isn't working well. If you measure just continuity it's possible that your meter is describing another path between the probes: through the transformer, relay coil, fuse, etc. That path can have a resistance of ~15-50 ohms which some meters will report as continuity. There are many topics in this forum that elaborate on this.

#8 10 days ago

Couple schematic reading questions;

As I start following the power path for the Outhole relay located at F-25.5 on the schematic I map this out (50V Line--> -[/]- Reset relay - Game Over relay -[/]- Outhole relay coil - Outhole relay -[ ]- - 8C SCM -[/] - 50V Line).

1. What does ---> AT H-19 above the coil on the schematic mean? See yellow highlighted area in picture.

2. How does the Outhole relay SW that is open get pulled in if the coil doesn't get a completed circuit. See area circled in red on picture.

My brain is telling me something is happening at that AT H-19 location that is energizing the coil and pulling in the SW so the path can continue on to the SCM.

Thanks
Dennis

Outhole Relay (resized).jpg
#9 10 days ago
Quoted from F-14Pin:

What does ---> AT H-19 above the coil on the schematic mean?

That means it connects to the wire at H19 on the schematic. Note the identical wire colors: 25-9

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#10 10 days ago

Bally often did this. Williams did too. It represents a connection not actually drawn on the schematic. Here's the complete circuit for the Outhole relay, in 3 (!) pieces:
Captain Fantastic Outhole relay (resized).jpg
Essentially the Outhole switch starts a bonus countdown. Once the bonus reaches zero the Outhole relay fires and returns the ball to the shooter lane.

#11 9 days ago

Mark you are in for the win again. I cleaned/filed the NC switches at the Bonus Score relay and SCM than put a jumper across the Outhole SW and hit the Credit Button. The game reset, Outhole kicker fired and my flippers are now working for the first time. Game is in play mode.

Next up is to put the playfield back down and run through all the scoring functions and keep knocking the trees down. My paper schematic arrived yesterday so I don't have to jump between the office and garage anymore. Also, I get the "AT" thing on the schematics now so that was a huge win for me to move forward.

Dennis

#12 9 days ago

Since you're studying up on EM games you might want to spend some time with "An Introduction to Bally Flipper Games" which covers the basics of the games and their devices and some schematic information. Williams and Gottlieb had similar publications. Two of the three are available on my web site at https://www.funwithpinball.com/resources/parts-catalog-list

#13 8 days ago

All the scoring functions work on the playfield but I'm stuck on the Ball in Play function. After game reset we have the Player 1 and Ball 1 lights illuminated but when a ball drain happens it stays on ball 1 so in effect you can play forever on ball 1. Ball gets kicked out and continuing playing Ball 1.

The Ball Stepper works manually, each manual stroke advances the Ball count from 1, 2, 3 than Game Over. I jumped power from a different live coil and the Ball Stepper advanced from 1 to 2 so the coil is good.

If I'm reading the schematic (D-18.5) correctly my path to Ball advance is;

50V -> -[ ]- Outhole relay -> -[ ]- Ball Index Relay -> Extra Ball Relay -[/]- -> -[ ]- 3D SCM -> Coin Unit DISC -> Ball Count SU SOL -> 50V

I have inspected and cleaned all the switches and observed the following;

1) Outhole relay pulls in on ball drain
2) Ball Index relay is already pulled in via a function of the 10,100 & 1000 Score relays
3) Extra Ball relay NC switch is closed
4) 3D SCM switch appears normal.

I'm not 100% sure of the "Coin Unit DISC" path or where that is located inside the game???????

Am I on track or out in left field?

Dennis

#14 8 days ago

I need to regroup here and get out of the forest. I read a post from 2 years ago about the same problem but it was happening on Player 4.

I also didn't think far enough into to how players play, Player 1 Ball 1, Player 2 Ball 1 etc. My issue is not staying on ball 1 it's not advancing to Player 2 or a combination of both.

I also injected a problem of no credits on coin drop after the first coin, didn't have that yesterday.

Need to reset my brain and head back out to the garage.

#15 8 days ago

Issue #1

Credit Wheel at 0, power on, drop coin (SCM runs & Coin Stepper advances), game resets to Player 1 Ball 1. You can play game forever on Ball 1, never advances to Ball 2.

Issue #2

Credit Wheel at 2, power on, press Credit Button, SCM runs and Coin Stepper advances, Credit Wheel decreases by 1 credit. Press Credit Button for Player 2 and SCM runs and Coin Stepper advances but no Player #2 light showing.

Issue #3

Credit Wheel at 0, power on, drop coin (SCM runs & Coin Stepper advances), game resets to Player 1 Ball 1. Drop 3 additional coins for 4 Players and the SCM runs and Coin Stepper advances but the Credit Wheel remains at 0.

The Extra Ball relay -[/]- switch with gray wire is common to both the Player Up SU SOL and Ball Count SU Sol.

The Credit Unit SU Sol might be a dirty -[/]- Credit Unit Limit SW as everything in the path seems ok.

More to follow.

#16 8 days ago

1) Well I fixed the Ball count problem, I think it was a SCM 3D or dirty Ball Count stepper. It now advances from Ball 1,2,3 and Game Over.

2) The Player Up stepper unit appears to be working and resetting when it's told to.

3) Coin drop in relation to Player #1, 2, 3, 4 lights has a mind of it's own;

1st set of coins
Coin #1 drop, reset and Player #1 light is on
Coin #2 drop, Player #1&2 light is on
Coin #3 drop, Player #1 light is on, Player #2 light goes out, no Player #3 light
Coin #4 drop, Player #1,2 and 4 lights are on

2nd set of coins
Coin #1 drop, reset and Player #1 light is on
Coin #2 drop, no Player #2 light
Coin #3 drop, Player #1,2,3 light is on
Coin #4 drop, only Player #1 light is on
Coin #5 drop, Player #1,2,3,4 lights are on

3rd set of coins
Coin #1 drop, reset and Player #1 light is on
Coin #2 drop, only Player #1 light
Coin #3 drop, Player #1,2,3 light is on
Coin #4 drop, Player #1,2,3,4 light is on

When I had Player #1,2,3,4 lights on I ran through adding points and doing a ball drain. Game cycled through Player 1,2,3,4 and Ball 1,2,3 than Game Over. Worked 4.0 as advertised.

Still don't get credits on the Credit Wheel no matter how many coins you drop in.

Making progress, now need to figure out this random coin drop thing.

#17 8 days ago

One thing I did notice on my 1st set of coin drops and had Player #1,2 and 4 lights on, when I got to ball #1 drain on Player #2 it would not advance to Player #3 and Player #2 remained in play with Ball #1.

#18 7 days ago

Productive day on the CF Pin, the coin drop in relation to Player #1, 2, 3, 4 is fixed. This was the contacts on the coin stepper and loose Player lights.

Have two remaining issues before I call the game 100%;

1) No luck on figuring out how the Credit Wheel advances with dropping coins. I can't find the Credit Wheel step up coil on the schematics.

2) Have a growling coil on the Bonus Stepper when hitting the playfield roll overs. Ohm check says it's bad so I will replace that.

Knocking down trees, almost there.

#19 7 days ago
Quoted from F-14Pin:

I can't find the Credit Wheel step up coil on the schematics

It's at 20 on the schematic

pasted_image (resized).png
#20 7 days ago

Thanks Howard.

Looks like the coil on the Bonus Stepper is in fact good so maybe just a good cleaning will fix that growling coil.

#21 6 days ago

Playfield roll overs are fix and working.

#22 6 days ago

I have two remaining bugs to work out. For clarification my machine does not have the optional 2 Coin 3 Plays, 3rd Coin Chute, 2nd Coin Chute or the 10-12 relay. Game is setup for 1 Coin 1 Play using the R or L coin chute on the coin door.

1) Credit Wheel at 0: Dropping coin #1 resets the game to Player #1, coin drop #2 lights up Player #2, same for coin # 3 & 4. If I drop coin #5 it goes into the coin box and the Credit Wheel remains at 0. I'm sure the game should not do that or there would be some upset players losing their money or play credits if they inserted more than 4 coins.

Or maybe that is how the game works???????????????

I ran the score up to 99,990 using the 10,000 point relay and when it rolled over the Over the Top buzzer sounded but no free play credit ever registered on the Credit Wheel. Game card says 1 free play at 70,000.

For home use all this doesn't really matter because 4 coins gets you 4 players as it is today. Wash, Rinse Repeat. My OCD just wants it to operate as delivered.

2) On game reset the all the score wheels reset to 0 except Player #2 10th digit that will run around 5-7 times before it stops on 0. If I start a Player 1 only game with all score wheels at 0 and at the end of that only have points on Player 1 than start a new game the Player 1 score wheels reset to 0 but Player 2 10th digit wheel comes off 0 and starts hunting for 0 and will rotate 5-7 times before stopping on 0 and the game is now reset and in play mode. None of the other wheels that are on 0 move during reset. Weird, been trying to hunt this down on and off all week.

Dennis

#23 6 days ago
Quoted from F-14Pin:

I ran the score up to 99,990 using the 10,000 point relay and when it rolled over the Over the Top buzzer sounded but no free play credit ever registered on the Credit Wheel. Game card says 1 free play at 70,000.

Here's the circuit that should give a credit when you roll over from 69k to 70k.

Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

pasted_image (resized).png
#24 6 days ago

Although the card might say 70,000, you'll need to check that the game is actually set up for a free game at 70,000 in the upper left area of the back box. Hopefully there is a chart there with the wire color codes and jones plug positions for the free game point thresholds.

#25 6 days ago

bonzo71 that is a good question, attach are pictures of what I have.

Score Adj (resized).jpgScore Adj Plug (resized).jpg
#26 6 days ago

It appears the games is set up to award credits at the following thresholds:

orange = 70,000
Red = 99,000
orange/black 136,000

That's assuming I'm seeing the wire colors correctly. If you are not getting credits, you might also check the "High Score Feature Adjustment Plug" which can be switched between awarding credits or an extra ball at point thresholds. This plug should also be in the back box.

#27 6 days ago
Quoted from F-14Pin:

1) Credit Wheel at 0: Dropping coin #1 resets the game to Player #1, coin drop #2 lights up Player #2, same for coin # 3 & 4. If I drop coin #5 it goes into the coin box and the Credit Wheel remains at 0. I'm sure the game should not do that or there would be some upset players losing their money or play credits if they inserted more than 4 coins.
Or maybe that is how the game works???????????????

sure looks like that's how the game works.

typically bally unpowers the coin lockout relay when it doesn't want a coin, and that causes the coin to eject back out the coin return.

there's nothing on your game that does that tho, and I don't see a circuit that would go active when the coin unit is at top step to cause a coin to power the credit unit step-up solenoid.

#28 5 days ago

bonzo71 the High Score Feature Adjustment Plug is set to credit and the Match Feature is set to on.

baldtwit I would have to agree unless someone can prove otherwise.

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