(Topic ID: 246595)

Need help with a United deluxe Mercury shuffle alley

By PinDeLaPin

4 years ago


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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by PM_Jeremy
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    #1 4 years ago

    I am in the process of diagnosing and troubleshooting a 1954 United's Deluxe Mercury shuffle alley bowling machine. All the info below was in another thread but I have transferred it to its own thread so it may be of help tsomeone at a later date.
    Just picked the machine up a few weeks ago and its currently not functioning. Looking for a schematic so I can start delving into it and bring it back to life. Currently it powers on and if I drop a dime in it starts the process and is in game mode however, none of the rollover switches register. Wmsfan-GAP suggested to double check the jones plugs between the alley and head. Make sure its a good connection and maybe clean the plugs a bit as well. I did clean the contacts of all connectors and reseated them as well with no change. Next per his advice I tried pushing a few of them from the underside of the alley to see if the gap was too large in the switches to make contact with no change. Mopar added this to try, if the Game Over Relay is resetting (which I now believe it is), and the Pin Relays 
    aren't energizing through the rollovers, I believe on your machine there's a set of switches in both the 
    Game Over Relay, and in the 1st Shot Relay that should be closed when those two relays are in the 
    reset position. Not any of the rollovers will activate any of the Pin Relays (in the Relay Bank) if either 
    of those switches aren't making true contact.
    Mopar was spot on right. When you power the game on the arm comes down resets all the switches. When you drop a dime in the slot only the game over coil trips and opens. If you try to close it manually the coil just starts buzzing trying to close.
    Also not sure this wiring is right it looks a bit sketchy to me. Also check out the right lug of the 2nd shot coil and both lugs of the game over coil they look pretty dark. Do these look like anything I should be concerned with?
    Mopar added this advice..Yes, that jumper does look sketchy, but I wouldn't be concerned with it at this point. 
    We at least know the Game Over Relay energizes.. 
    After start up, I'm thinking the Lock Relay isn't remaining energized. If not, that would point to a Slam 
    Switch or burned out Lock Relay coil.. 
    This is now the point at which I am at so any more points or tips would be greatly appreciated.

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    #3 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Bill, actually, because the Game Over Relay remains in the energized position and doesn't reset, it's really
    never is in the game mode..
    On the bottom board (probably on the far left) is the Lock Relay. You'll want to make sure the switches
    in that relay look okay and are gaped properly. Then with the machine on, check if it remains energized
    after you manually press it in the energized position. If it does, but doesn't energize at start up, then good
    chance that it's a set of contacts that closes when the Start Relay is in the energize (trip) position, and once
    again opens when the Start Relay is reset..

    Ok its very confusing and I think the game is confusing me and itself. So when you drop a dime in to start a game the machine starts resetting the score reels and player 1 lights up. That is as far as it will progress because that game over relay pops up so no rollover switches work. I will check that other lock relay when I get home today and will post some more pics so you can see exactly what i'm seeing.

    #4 4 years ago

    Here are some reference pics of underneath the playfield. You can see in the one pic the loose wire that apparently at one time was attached to a tilt switch that is no longer there. I can tell it was there at one time cause there are 2 screw holes in the wood. Not sure if this missing would cause me any problems or not.

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    #5 4 years ago
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    #7 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Okay, that Vibration Switch is what I called the Slam Switch.
    Someone cut out the switches. The two yellow wires are already
    together and all you have to do is wire that 3rd wire with the two
    yellows. That'll be the same as the Vibration Switch making contact,
    then at start up, that should keep the Lock Relay energized, which then
    will keep the Game Over Relay from energizing and should remain in the
    reset position. You then should have active rollovers..

    After closer examination at that vibration tilt wire all 3 wires are already tied together.

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    #8 4 years ago

    I noticed last night while staring at the relay bank under the playfield something i'm thinking maybe isn't correct. When a dime is dropped in to start a game the lock relay starts going ape shit and clattering back and forth about 5 or 6 times. Is this normal or possibly something that could be leading to my problems?

    #10 4 years ago

    Yes there was a slam tilt in the head on the upper right corner I made sure the contacts were not touching on that one as well. On the lock relay switch I physically held it in the open position to try to energize the pin rollovers and it still did not work there may be another slam tilt or vibration switch in the coin door I will check that as well. When that lock relay engages shouldn't it just engage and not clatter back and forth wildly? I have a thin file i will try to hit the contacts on the switches in that lock relay but I did adjust them once already.

    #12 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Have you taken a dmm to the lock coil? Compare the reading to similar coils.

    I haven't done that yet but definitely planning on doing so to make sure the relay sustains power after it finishes clattering back and forth.

    #14 4 years ago

    It definitely initially has power because it engages and clatters back and forth like its trying to lock. I can watch the contacts sparking when the relay is smacking them together as fast as it does.

    #15 4 years ago

    Had you meant to say that you held it in the "closed" (energized position)?

    Yep sorry what i meant to say is that I held it closed with no change.
    Just so I am clear you are saying since the 3 wires are tied together underneath the playfield that the slam tilt in the upper head should actually be making contact now and not open.

    #18 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Actually No, that is not what I'm saying. Not because since they're tied together. They need to be tied together if the machine has
    any chance to function now that the Vibration Switch is missing..
    And as I had stated in my very first post on a different thread a few days ago about this issue, Vibration Switches need to be closed.
    They need to be Touching Each Other on this machine..

    Thks for your patience Tim sorry I feel like such a newb dealing with this older machinery this a total learni g curve for me. I will be home in a couple hours and do what you suggested and post back with results.

    #19 4 years ago

    Ok here is the latest status update. I bent the vibration switch tabs in the head together to make contact. I started a game and lo and behold the game over relay did not go crazy and also didn't close. 1st player is lit up on the backglass but the rollover switches still don't work. Baby steps here and we are making good progress. What would be my next par6hway to follow here?

    #20 4 years ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    Ok here is the latest status update. I bent the vibration switch tabs in the head together to make contact. I started a game and lo and behold the game over relay did not go crazy and also didn't close. 1st player is lit up on the backglass but the rollover switches still don't work. Baby steps here and we are making good progress. What would be my next par6hway to follow here?

    Forgot to post a pick of the vibration switch in the head.

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    #21 4 years ago

    Ok so another update here to report. All of the back row switches are registering. 1st switch will trip 1st shot relay and 2nd switch will trip 2nd shot and then it will reset for the next turn. However none of the other switches still register at all.

    #23 4 years ago

    Something else I forgot to post was the pin rest motor sqeals and squawls really loudly. Is this something that can just be oiled or more of an indicator that the motor needs to be replaced?

    #25 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    On the backside of the Pin Reset Motor there's the small armature tail that goes in and out as it's
    energized, then not energized. Applying a couple of drops of light weight oil on that small tail is usually
    a plus for the motor's performance..

    Took your advice on the motor and its it smooth and quiet now. However for whatever reason I have lost the back row of roll overs. No idea why they stopped working but they are now dead like the other rollovers. Something else to note as well is the 1-2 and the 5-6 player relays in the head flutter around like the lock relay was doing upon starting a game. I adjusted the switches and can't see anything wrong with them.

    #27 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Don't feel badly, I'm about to start up on mine again. I swear, it feels like 2 steps forward, 1 step back every time. You'll get there.

    Sure as hell does. This is a total learn as I go project here without a doubt. Planning on messing with it some more when I get home today. Really just unsure as to why the back row of switches decided to quit working. Only thing I did was pull the pin reset motor to clean it and oul it up to eliminate a horrible sqawl it was making. As long as people keep giving me ideas to try I am convinced I will get it working again. Been giving myself a crash course on EM machines over at pinwiki also to get a better understanding of what the hell i'm doing. I can say definitely that there is no way I would have stayed in the pinball hobby if there were only EM machines. It is so much easier at least to me to work on SS technology. Of course if all you grew up on was these older machines then it's probably 2nd nature to you.

    #29 4 years ago

    Ok so i"m kinda at a stand still right now not sure where to go. I looked at the switches in the game over relay and wasn't able to determine which contacts needed to be touching. It currently is back to tripping the game over relay as soon as a dime is dropped. Took some pics of the game over relay switches not sure these will help identify whichbones need to be making contact that currently are not.

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    #31 4 years ago

    First thi g i did is check both vibration switches and the one is tied together and other is making good contact as well. Lock relay is not energized which is why im assuming the game over relay immediately trips when a dime is dropped.

    #33 4 years ago

    No it isnt pulsating anymore just doesn't engage

    #35 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Not often, but I have seen them kinda burn out and not blow a fuse.
    Do you have an amp meter to check if it's getting juice at start up?

    I will hook my DMM up to it and measure voltage and report back what that reading is.

    #37 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    See, now you're really having fun!
    Soon you'll be trying to find obsolete parts! Yay!
    Seriously though, it is fun, and we all love seeing improvement. I'm pulling for you!

    I just wish I knew what the hell I was doing then it might go faster.
    I'm pretty sure if I can just alleviate the lock relay/game over relay issue then the rest will come a little easier.

    #38 4 years ago

    Down here messing with this thing again and getting strange results. Same story drop a dime lock relay doesnt engage and game over relay trips. I took steel wool to all the contacts on the lock relay and game over plus player 1. Now if i then manually engage lock relay i can then get game over relay to push down. Also on the backglass the 9th frame is lit up now. Plus i pushed the 1 and 8 rollover switch and they engaged and raised those pins but then didnt do anything else like tell the score reels to move. I stuck my dmm on the lock relay and it was reading 4.45 volts and the game over relay is reading 6.18v1. Measured the power at the wall receptacle and it was reading 118v

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    #41 4 years ago

    Yeah I realized it started to fragment while I was using it but it cleaned up the contacts very nicely. I hen sprayed compressed air on the contacts that I cleaned and then I vacuumed everything up also to avoid any kind of fibers that would cause a short

    #44 4 years ago
    Quoted from PM_Jeremy:

    Nic Schell recently did a video over on Facebook about cleaning and adjusting relays. I only saw a tiny bit when it was live but there's some great info there.
    https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.schell/videos/10156172583066806/

    That is great just what I needed was a ceash course on proper relat and switch cleaning and adjusting. Thks

    #45 4 years ago
    Quoted from edward472:

    I'm going through a EM Shooting Gallery right now. I plugged it in and was getting weird results. I took all of the stepper motors out,disassembled, cleaned, greased, adjusted the switches, and reassembled them. Just doing that resolved 90% of the issues I was having. One example is the shot counter wouldn't reset all the way to zero on startup. The issue was the shot unit had solidified grease in it that was making it to where the spring didn't have enough umpf to turn the cog all the way to zero. Maybe before continuing trying to get it working, give it a good cleaning.

    Yes i'm learning these things as I go. Had no idea what a stepper even was until picking up this machine. Now I know what it is just not really what its medieval looking ass does. My skills really are geared towards newer SS machines I had no previous experience with EM's before purchasing this machine. However, I do know more today about them than I did yesterday so let's call it slow progress.

    #47 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Good thinking on vacumming the fragments, but you'd be surprised what a nuisance one small single strand can cause..
    On countless of bowlers (?) (triple digits), I've filed the contacts, and cleaned the wiper boards (the riveted boards on
    the Steppers) with a solution and Scotch Brite, then a slight film of light weight grease on the boards..
    On shafts, such as plungers, I finish cleaning with Lemon Pledge. Keeps things slick, and doesn't make plastic pieces
    swell (as a variety of lubricants are known to do).
    A pair of 3 ft. long (or so) wire with elagator clips on the ends is a plus to have on hand. Good for many purposes
    including you'd be able to jump the Lock Relay for testing..

    Yeah definitely won't use the steel wool again I don't need any more problems rearing their ugly heads I have enough already with this machine Those are all very good tips thank you for sharing them, when you put a light coat of Grease on those stepper boards what brand of the grease are you using? When I get home this afternoon I think I'm going to go right to those steppers and give them a real good cleaning. I wiped them down initially but I'm sure they could probably use an alcohol swabbing As well. One other thing I noticed I forgot to mention is the first real in the first player in the back box it does not turn so thousands will not register. Only hundreds doubles and single digits register on the score reel.

    #50 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Try this one. But I still recommend getting TOP #8

    Thks Ron i'm probably gonna order that TOP 8 video just to have on hand as it seems like a handy resource to own. I have 24 score reels and the thought of taking each one out and apart is not too apealing but I know it must be done. Hopefully tomorrow or sunday, not sure which i'm gonna take those relays all apart and throw the relay brackets in the ultrasonic cleaner.

    #52 4 years ago
    Quoted from PM_Jeremy:

    I'll throw my hat in on the videos. I'm documenting some of the work while rebuilding a 1962 United Embassy Shuffle Alley.
    -here's the full play list (4 videos as of this date) - soon I will be adding a cleaning and reassembly videos
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKBzlsEWMlPKNVRIHPr3cjAtAqjoL4dCK
    score reel teardown

    a tip to free stuck score reel parts

    Good stuff for sure thank you for posting those.

    #53 4 years ago

    Well i've had family in town this weekend so very little progress has been made. Just had a bit of time to mess with it and went right to the steppers and I think I have found part of my problem. They are extremely stiff and filthy as hell and are going to all need a lot of love. I cleaned them in position with some naphtha oil and obviously gotta take them all completely apart to get all the gunk but again i'm slowly making progress.

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    #56 4 years ago
    Quoted from edward472:

    It's very satisfying. Here's a before and after pic of one of my steppers.[quoted image][quoted image]

    Very nice work. You just don't realize how much longer it takes to fix something of this John Muir of machine. With all the moving parts something that you would clean on a modern machine that would take you 10 minutes takes as stated above 30 to 45 minutes. I am planning to get to done today and I will take that as a big victory if I can get those two done

    #57 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Yup. Plan on about 30 minutes each one to start. It is so gratifying though when you finish one up and just steps effortlessly.
    Keep at it when you can. 1 or 2 a night and you're done in no time!

    Hey Ron on that pic above of the stepper unit thats one I intend to attack today. Most of the mechanisms are very hard to engage but I noticed the tooth gear that is supposed to turn that's steps it up is not turning when I do get the mechanisms to move. Does that indicate that there could be something broken in there or that it's just that gummed up with Gunk and that hopefully when I take it all apart and clean it up today that it should go back to moving as it's designed to do so?

    #67 4 years ago

    Ok so heres an update on a very productive day. I completely disassembled all 6 steppers in the backbox and the one below the playfield. The backbox step units are labeled: Step up unit, Star match step up unit, 0-9 match step up unit, Player "UP" step up unit, Frame step up unit and Coin step up unit. The one under the playfield is Extra Shots step up unit. All were pretty nasty and some were frozen but no longer the case. Where it stands now os powered up dime drops and pins reset and 1st up lights up in backglass. Pushing rollovers actuates the switch now and pins raise however no points are awarded and after 2 shots it doesn't reset and you can roll again. What are my next steps? Been a very positive day as far as making progress on this old girl.

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    #70 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    That's right, you have the 1954 machine. No Strike/Spare Step Up Units..
    You'll want to make sure the switch stack screws are tighten before adjusting..
    Is the 1st Shot Relay energizing? If so, how about then the 2nd Shot relay?
    If not, you'll want to first check the switches on the score motor's cam.
    Always good to go through the rest of the machine including the Score Motor's
    wiper board..

    Will try all your suggestions 2morrow and report back. Fingers are pretty much spent after spending about 6hrs on the game today.

    #71 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Nice work! Great progress.
    You are further along than me now, but I'd think maybe look at the "2nd shot" relay?

    Thanks Ron been a dirty day for sure. Planning on jumping back on it 2morrow afternoon for a couple hours.

    #72 4 years ago

    What is the best sand/wax to use on the playing surface? I see this sun glo brand but then there seem to be a bunch of different numbered containers. Is one a better fit for a Formica playfrield bowler opposed to a wooden shuffleboard type playfield? Just want to make sure i get the right type that won't do damage or be too abrasive and mess up the formica.

    #75 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    That's right, you have the 1954 machine. No Strike/Spare Step Up Units..
    You'll want to make sure the switch stack screws are tighten before adjusting..
    Is the 1st Shot Relay energizing? If so, how about then the 2nd Shot relay?
    If not, you'll want to first check the switches on the score motor's cam.
    Always good to go through the rest of the machine including the Score Motor's
    wiper board..

    Hey Tim will I want to mess with these first and 2nd relays before tackling all 24 of my scoring reels? Had guests in town the last couple days so I haven't made any progress but plan on jumping back on the machine this afternoon. I know I have to do all the scoring reels anyway but wasn't sure if I should attack those or attack the relays first and wanted to allocate my time in the most effective Direction

    #78 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Because I first go through the entire machine(s) before plugging in, I make the mistake
    by thinking that others do the same and are now at the trouble shooting point..
    Like you say, they need to be gone through anyway, so it can't hurt to first go through them
    all, and for me it's a huge plus to also first go through all the other components before
    plugging in. All needs to be gone through anyway, and it fixes would be upcoming problems..
    On the Bank Relay, I usually tighten the switch stack screws, and check for adjustment.
    Years back, I use to file all those contacts but now only file the nessesary ones during
    trouble shooting. All other switches I tighten, clean and adjust before plugging in..

    Looks like I will be pulling score reels today

    #79 4 years ago

    1 down 23 more to go. Geeez!

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    #82 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Fun, right!

    No no it's not. Just knocked out another one that looked like someone shit on it. Everything was locked up and I think I just used half a can of naphtha in it. Everything is smooth and clean now though working as it should.

    #83 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Don't forget the hair pin clip..

    Haha I was wondering if anyone was gonna notice I took the pic b4 I put that last clip on and screwed it into place. Good eye Tim.

    #85 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    But it's so rewarding!
    Seriously though, you'll be happier when you plug it in this time.

    My goal today is to get through the other 2 score reels on player 1 and if things go good maybe 1 or 2 done on player 2.

    #86 4 years ago

    Ok todays update and it's pretty good imo. I finished up all of player 1's score reels. Then I moved on to player 2 where I knocked out 2 more reels. My boy decided it would be fun to time me and i've got my best tume at 24 minutes a reel now lol. So far the player 2 reels are much more filthy than player 1 which was surprising. Will keep trucking along and report back what I find along the way.

    #87 4 years ago

    I hope this isnt a stupid question and I'm hoping somebody can give me a good answer but does the whole assembly that the scoring reels screw into come out of the back box? There's like a metal latch on the side of back box that slides but I thought it said that that was for the back glass removal. It's a pain in the ass to try to take these reels out up in the air and have them dangling down by the wiring. It would be a lot easier if the whole thing came out and I could lay it on the table and do them that way. Without a manual I am reluctant to just push and pull things that I don't know what they do.

    #91 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Mine just hung there.
    I found it a little easier to have 2 out a time sometimes. More room.

    Yeah thats just it there is no room to really work on them. Hoping that it gets a little easier as I get to the lower reels and wont have to be on a stool.

    #92 4 years ago
    Quoted from PM_Jeremy:

    I doubt it. On the latter United machines you pull the back glass and the reels tip down. I don't think your machine does this.

    Jeremy your video is what prompted me to ask the question. I saw yours fold down but I saw no hinges or anything on mi e that would alliw me to do it.

    #93 4 years ago
    Quoted from guss:

    I'm doing mine too, what 'm doing is cutting the wires and putting plugs (Disconnect Terminal) on them.

    Do you mind posting any pics showing the connectors and where u got them?

    #95 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Maybe you could remove a wire staple to give you some slack?
    As to the height, you could probably remove head unit and place it on a lower surface. Should only be a few plugs and 2 bolts I'd think.

    Yeah I have removed those wire Staples and it has helped it would just be so much more helpful if the whole thing came out as a unit I think you could do a lot more of the reels faster if they were flat in front of you. Mine are so gunked up and Frozen I'm having to use vise grips to break some of the pivots pieces free.

    #99 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Hair dryer or heat gun.

    Don't have a heat gun but did try hsir dryer and it actually took longer to break loose

    #100 4 years ago

    By the way the crud is so bad that the naptha and 90% alcohol wasn't getting the job completely done. I had picked thos stuff up to clean boards on the recommendation of @ChrisHibler and man o man it worked great.

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    #103 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Do you have your head off the machine?
    For the upper score reels (the 1 - 4 Players) I set the head on a chair
    as I'm in a chair working on them, and for the 5th and 6th Players, along
    with the three Step-Up-Units, I set the head on a table..
    I myself never cut wires. If done properly, seldom does one have to be
    done again..

    The head is still mounted onto the machine. I only have the 2 more reels on player 2 which are the highest. The middle and bottom reels should be much easier to access.

    #104 4 years ago

    Ok so finished up all scoring reels in player 1 and 2 tonight. I turned it on and dropped a dime just to mess with the switches and see if things were working as they should. I was just using my hand to depress switches not sliding a puck. So of course craos messed uo why wouldn't it be right?
    1st of all if you knock all pins down it's supposed to give 30 points but is giving 40 on player 1 and player 2.
    2nd thing is you drop a dime and 2 players lights up and it starts on player 2.
    3rd thing.. who the hell cares the 1st 2 things are jacked up enough.
    Im continuing right along cleaning the scoring reels on player 3. I know your thinking i've abandoned the scoring reels @mopar but I haven't just wanted to guage my profress for functionality.

    #106 4 years ago

    I went through every step up unit thoroughly and cleaned and made sure all fingers were making contact with the buttons on the bakelite. I will check that 10-99 relay today and see whats going on with it. Here also was the scoring rules that are on the playfield showing the 30 and not 40 points for a strike. I also cleaned all the contacts on the scoring wheel.

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    #108 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Are you certain the stepper was set properly? Maybe the fingers/arms are slightly out of "zero" position.
    Nice work though!

    I will doublecheck each one later om. Good suggestion. Thx Ron

    #109 4 years ago

    Had some unexpected guests pop in for the weekend so haven't had a chance to mess with the machine. Hopefully I can get back to it tomorrow so I can yrll and cuss at it for not working properly

    #110 4 years ago

    Man oh man have I mentioned how much I dislike scoring reels? Slowly but surely making progress. I've been able to get 2 more done which now has players 1-3 done. Done with it for today but will be starting on player 4 reels tomorrow. Ughh!!!

    #111 4 years ago

    Sure glad I bought that transformable foosball table. You can play foosball and store all your pool supplies and shuffle alley supplies on it. I would really suggest everyone gets one of these multifunctional pieces of furniture

    20190723_174253 (resized).jpg20190723_174253 (resized).jpg
    #113 4 years ago

    Well my copy of TOP #8 showed up today so hopefully this will have some additional tips for me.

    20190724_161147 (resized).jpg20190724_161147 (resized).jpg
    #115 4 years ago
    Quoted from Wmsfan-GAP:

    Bill- with EM games, be it a shuffle alley or a pinball, it's the methodical cleaning of the stepper units that takes the most time, but is usually where most of the issues lie. My United 'Chief Shuffle Alley' is set up at my parents house. It was taken apart and cleaned like what you are doing now, over ten years ago, and still runs like a champ issue free. There is light at the end of the tunnel

    Yes methodical and tedious are definitely great descriptors. I've spent about an hour today sanding switch contacts this time with no steel wool. I needed a break from those rotten ass score reels man those are annoying. They wouldn't be so bad I would think if they weren't so freaking nasty and every one of em seems to be locked up. Will get back to those score reels tomorrow though hopefully.

    #117 4 years ago

    Turned on the machine to test my progress today after messing with the 2 steppers suggested by Mopar. When i dropped a dime to start a game all score reels reset except the 1000 reels on player 1 and player 2. Nxt thing was that the playfield switches didn't activate the pins and I thought i smelled smoke so I turned it off. I lifted the playfield up and noticed there was a small amount of smoke coming from the coil that pulls the bar down that resets the switches. I'm continuing to clean scoring reels but what would cause these new problems and what should I do to fix it?

    #118 4 years ago
    20190726_160014 (resized).jpg20190726_160014 (resized).jpg
    #120 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Did the 1000s move at all?
    Check your gapping again on the two steppers/switches you worked on. Maybe they are causing a coil lock?

    They didn't move. I went back through those 2 steppers to make sure the switches opened and closed and switches were clean

    #122 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Huh,
    Well, let's wait for Mopar, or someone who's been down this road before.
    In the meantime, check those 1000 reels. See if they move by hand but not when game started. That'd be a clue I think.

    Yep already pulled them both out and checked they are both free. Not sure why they aren't moving

    #126 4 years ago
    Quoted from Wmsfan-GAP:

    How long was it on before you smelled and saw the smoke?

    Very qick. I shut it off immediately but the coil was hot as hell.

    #127 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    On the Bank Reset coil, a set of switches (that energizes the Bank Relay Coil) stuck together (gaped too close), or the
    Score Motor hadn't returned to it's run out position..
    I think you might have checked those switches before. They're the set that closes just before the Score Motor finishes it's
    cycle. Oh yes, if the motor hadn't completed it's full cycle, the run out switch needs to be adjusted a bit closer..
    On the 1,000 point not resetting. I believe the 1st and 2nd Players reset from the same Reset Relay. They'll be six set
    of switches. You'll want to check those switches in the 1st & 2nd Player Reset Relay..

    Thx Tim I will check those tomorrow. Do you think I cooked the coil or caught it in time? Guess I will set my DMM to ohms tomorrow also and see what it reads.

    #129 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Although the Bank Relay Coil is 110V, most likely you're okay Bill, but if not,
    I should be able to have you covered..
    Yea, if the switches in the 1st and 2nd Player Score Reels are set properly, I'd
    next check the 1st & 2nd Player Reset Relay. If you haven't, you'll also want to
    check and make sure the switch stack screws are snugged..

    I did have some loose screws on a couple of them in the switch stack but all are tight now.

    #130 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Although the Bank Relay Coil is 110V, most likely you're okay Bill, but if not,
    I should be able to have you covered..
    Yea, if the switches in the 1st and 2nd Player Score Reels are set properly, I'd
    next check the 1st & 2nd Player Reset Relay. If you haven't, you'll also want to
    check and make sure the switch stack screws are snugged..

    I went through the 1st and 2nd player switches in the backbox and sanded all contacts on that yesterday. Should be able to pinpoint it since it is affecting the same reel on both sides.

    #132 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    How's your DVD? Answers a lot of questions, right?!

    Yeah i've watched it and it did clear some things up but still definitely not everything.

    #133 4 years ago

    I'm down here messing with it now and I decided to double check my steppers. Sure enough the Player "up" is sticking and not stepping up or resetting. I took it all back apart and put it back together and its still doing the same thing. I have counted the turns on the center toothed cog spring and its 36. One ofvthe others is at 37 and another is at 38. Does anyone know hoe many turns these are supposed to be set at?

    15644341275757866157350389103062 (resized).jpg15644341275757866157350389103062 (resized).jpg
    #135 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Are talking about spring tension?
    If so, just give it another turn and try it. Mine was a little sluggish so I wound it once more and she resets nicely now.

    Is there a magic number of windings? Wasn't sure if too many would cause problems

    #137 4 years ago

    So I used my super duper techincally advanced way of determining how many turns was on the spring in the 1st place. I use a small blade screwdriver and just start on the 1st winding dragging the screwdriver over and counting each click as it passes the high point of the winding. Its a super technical process!

    #138 4 years ago
    Quoted from PM_Jeremy:

    Yep! To many turns & it might not step up completely. Trial & error is my motto when working on these units.

    Jeremy by any chance do you know exactly how many winding are on yours?

    #141 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    I count to start just for an idea of how many, but adjust as needed.
    The nice part is you should be able to tell using the steppers without the machine needing to be activated.
    I use tiny players to keep mine from unwinding too quickly, also from stabbing me.

    Thing is i've moved it both ways, tighten and loosen and get same results. Seemed like the one time I had it worki g as soon as i put the main nut on and tightened it up thats when it quit stepping.

    #142 4 years ago

    Also just to be clear these steppers have already been thoroughly cleaned. All super nasty solidified grease has been removed and they are clean as a whistle.

    #145 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Hmm. and the other two springs are correct?
    Are the coil units moving freely? Do the plungers easily actuate?
    Sounds as though one of the arms isn't moving when a plunger is actuated.

    Yes the springs are the original ones that were on it. Should these be changed and if so what size are they and where do you get them?
    Also yes the plungers are free and had just a tiny amount of dry graphite dust applied to them.
    All pivot pins also had dry lube applied to them as well. It appears everything is moving freely just not resetting

    #146 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Bill, if you get it to reset, then check if it'll step up by giving the Step Up Coil a snap just as
    it does when energized..
    Each individual Step Up can require different amount of winds, so it's just by feel, and then
    a little experimenting..
    Also, are you applying a thin film of lube on the wiper board? It makes a huge difference
    and keeps things pretty much friction free.
    This is the grease that's best to use..
    https://www.google.com/search?q=super+lube+multi+purpose+clear+synthetic+grease+in+a+tube+grade+2&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=1GMUvCZ1zdgqcM%253A%252CwSvAk0aTTTMLGM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRdLUzw7l8zNAoey3zpNCpx1pxgDA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3guD__tzjAhXJB50JHQjNAFIQ9QEwCXoECAUQBg#imgrc=1GMUvCZ1zdgqcM:

    I have not applied any type of lube to the contact board. I guess Inwill put in an order for some of that and see if that helps things.

    #148 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Bill, if you get it to reset, then check if it'll step up by giving the Step Up Coil a snap just as
    it does when energized..
    Each individual Step Up can require different amount of winds, so it's just by feel, and then
    a little experimenting..
    Also, are you applying a thin film of lube on the wiper board? It makes a huge difference
    and keeps things pretty much friction free.
    This is the grease that's best to use..
    https://www.google.com/search?q=super+lube+multi+purpose+clear+synthetic+grease+in+a+tube+grade+2&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=1GMUvCZ1zdgqcM%253A%252CwSvAk0aTTTMLGM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRdLUzw7l8zNAoey3zpNCpx1pxgDA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3guD__tzjAhXJB50JHQjNAFIQ9QEwCXoECAUQBg#imgrc=1GMUvCZ1zdgqcM:

    Ok Tim just ordered some of this it will be here tomorrow.

    #150 4 years ago

    Man this stepper is really aggravating me I just can't seem to find the magic winding point. I dropped it to 35 windings and now it steps up just fine but when i push the top coil in to reset it nothing happens unless I physically push it down by hand. What am I missing? Tim do you really think that super lube will fix this? Really seems there isn't enough tension from 1 of those springs to pull it back to rest position.

    #153 4 years ago
    Quoted from Wmsfan-GAP:

    35?
    I have never had to wind one more than 4 times.
    This spring in circled in red.[quoted image]

    Ok so maybe i'm not being clear to everyone but in that picture that spring is wrapped 37 times according to my bad vision and remedial math skills. I took a few windings loose and am now at 35 windings. Again it steps up fine now with no hiccups its just that it won't reset.

    #154 4 years ago

    When u say you have only jad to wind one 4 times that's where I am getting confused

    #157 4 years ago
    Quoted from Wmsfan-GAP:

    unhook the lower part of the spring that connects to the black screw, then count the number of times that extended piece 'unwinds'. aka after all the spring tension is gone, so the only thing holding that spring in its place is the cotter pin. Does that make sense? It's usually only a few unwinding's….

    Ok thanks I will give that a shot because I was counting the total windings in the set position.

    #158 4 years ago

    So I just tore the whole damn stepper apart yet again and then put it back together again and still have the same problem. At this point I am now seeing the light through @mopars eyes and now am convinced the lube on the rivets will help it out. The order was placed and the lube will be here tomorrow and I can't wait for it to show up so I can see if it solves the problem.

    #160 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Bill, exactly what Step Up Unit are working on, Frame or Player?

    Im on the player step up now

    #161 4 years ago

    Well this just showed up today so gonna head on down shortly and give it a go.

    20190731_154950 (resized).jpg20190731_154950 (resized).jpg
    #162 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    It'll be like night and day Bill. I apply it to all wiper boards including the Score Motor's wiper board
    which gets used a lot..

    Ok Tim you get 2 cheers. Just finished applying grease to every stepper board in the game and now they all 2 step and doh-see-doh just like they are supposed to do. Now it's back to those dirty ass score reels.

    #163 4 years ago

    So with my steppers working as they should I wanted to power up the machine to see where I was with it. Tim I know you don't power them up till 100% of cleaning is done but i'm the kind that has to physically see progress to stay motivated. So i gave her some juice and fed her a nicy shiny dime. The reset bar slams down to reset the switches and stays locked on so i turn it off immediately. Also those 1000 point reels on player 1 and player 2 are still not moving and are stuck at 5k and 8k. I will continue cleaning scoring reels but wanted to know where to go with these issues?

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    #165 4 years ago

    At this point going to the bar may be more productive

    #168 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    That Relay Bank coil is 110V Bill, so after you sober up, you'll want to find the set of switches on
    the Score Motor's cam that energizes that coil..
    With your Wife in a CPR stance, you can stick a small screwdriver in between the set of switches and
    it'll energize the Bank coil..
    Haha, you'll be fine with a screwdriver with a plastic handle, plus you're only be messing with only one
    side of the circuit (keeping your other hand out of the machine)..

    Are we talking bout doing this with the game just powered up or a dime dropped?

    #172 4 years ago

    When i power the machine up all is good. Without attempting to start a game if I manually engage the coin relay the score motor starts turning. When it completes its revolution which ixm not sure it actually completes it bases on the yellow line on the cam and the switch it looks like its just short of completion. Also when it finishes the coil engages and slams down the arm on the switch bank to reset and then it just locks on and I have to shut it down qu8ckly.quickly

    15646905649254355143628516782155 (resized).jpg15646905649254355143628516782155 (resized).jpg
    #174 4 years ago

    Here are the 3 different stickers on the score motor

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    #175 4 years ago

    Here are all the switches on the score motor

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    #176 4 years ago

    I borrowed one of my wifes fingernail file boards and got in there and sanded every one of the contacts on the scoring wheel switches. After that I went back through with alcohol on a q-tip and cleaned each one also.

    #178 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Okay, but I think it's the gap that may be the most concern.
    You'll want to check the gap of the switches that's been mentioned
    in post 173.
    With the machine off, you can do that by checking the logic of the
    opening and closing of the switches while turning the Score Motor
    by hand. The Motor should be at rest when one of the "Opens Circuit
    to Score Motor" switches opens when traveled in the cam's groove
    (when the yellow marks line up)..

    Will do and report back my findings

    #179 4 years ago

    Not sure what I am missing here. I have watched every switch open and close multiple times while spinning the score motor by hand. Every switch opens and closes as it should. ????

    #181 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    The label that states 4th position states "Outside Switch Resets Relay Bank".
    That's the set that apparently remains closed. I didn't think the 115V went through
    the Lock Relay, but if so, the solder tabs could be touching, but most likely those
    switches aren't opening after the Score Motor made it's (supposable) full revolution.
    After turning on the machine, you can touch sets of switches together with a small
    screwdriver and when the Bank Relay's are touched, the Bank Relay coil will energize.
    Once you find that set, you'll want to consentrate on that set after manually energizing
    the Coin Relay. Those switches should make and separate just before the Score Motor
    finishes its revolution..

    Thanks Tim I will investigate this lead today and hopefully report back with good news. Does this set of switches and the whole score motor assembly have anything to do with the 1000 score reels in player 1 and 2 not resetting also or is that a whole different issue to address next?

    #184 4 years ago

    Here is what I am seeing. When game is started the Extra shots unit reset relay is going crazy as the score wheel is turning. The reset coil energizes and slams down and locks on while the extra shots relay is still moving. When I went around to the backbox I noticed the 1st and 2nd player reset player was going crazy as well as the 5th and 6th player relay but but the 3rd and 4th relay wasn't moving at all. Went back around to the coffin to watch the relays again and realized the lock relay isn't energized at all. The score motor also is still not fully resetting back to the yellow mark. I have looked at all the switches and they are all breaking when they should and coming back together when they should.

    #186 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Just a thought, is the score motor seated properly? I was thinking if it was pushed too close, or not far enough on its shaft the nubs would be hitting the wrong switches at the wrong times.
    Probably fine but figured why not check. I guess when you checked switches though you would have noticed.

    Yeah you would think something like that would be noticeable but I will doublecheck it.

    #187 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    At least you can work on yours, my stupid lube is going to late! Grrr....

    Man thats no good going into the weekend with no lube..

    #188 4 years ago

    Picked this up for the pins Tim I hope this is the same stuff you were using to repair them.

    20190802_184829 (resized).jpg20190802_184829 (resized).jpg
    #190 4 years ago

    I'm at total loss at this point. I have looked at every switch on the score motor at least 10 times. When they hit the notch on the cam they open and then close again as they should when coming up out of the notch. All switches are tight with no loose screws and all have been cleaned. The problem I am immediately seeing is that the lock relay isn't engaging but the slam tilt is engaged and the missing tilts wires are all tied together making good contact. The same thing is happening when started the score motor turns but gets to the very last point before hitting the yellow line and the coil arm engages slams down and locks on. I can then manually turn the score motor over the last tooth and then the coil retracts. However without the lock relay engaged the game is still not in game mode. Here are open and close pics of every switch as well.

    20190803_114752 (resized).jpg20190803_114752 (resized).jpg20190803_114819 (resized).jpg20190803_114819 (resized).jpg20190803_121449 (resized).jpg20190803_121449 (resized).jpg20190803_121529 (resized).jpg20190803_121529 (resized).jpg20190803_121541 (resized).jpg20190803_121541 (resized).jpg20190803_121555 (resized).jpg20190803_121555 (resized).jpg20190803_121617 (resized).jpg20190803_121617 (resized).jpg20190803_121627 (resized).jpg20190803_121627 (resized).jpg20190803_121650 (resized).jpg20190803_121650 (resized).jpg20190803_121712 (resized).jpg20190803_121712 (resized).jpg
    #192 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Is the Bank Reset in the stack that's in the 2nd pic?

    The first and second pics are of the 4th position switches I just included one pic showing the switch is open and one pic showing the switches are closed of each set of switches

    #194 4 years ago

    Man i hate cleaning score reels. Tooth brush these bastards with naptha then alcohol. Clean as a whistle though when you get done. No sense half assing it!

    20190803_220046 (resized).jpg20190803_220046 (resized).jpg
    #196 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Looking good!

    Thanks Ron. Crazy how much time you have to dedicate to cleaning these things. Pretty sure i've got my cleaning routine down to a fine art now though. Just have player 5 and player 6 to get through now.

    #197 4 years ago

    Wowwee!! Very productive day today I finished up player 4 and player 5 of score reels. Hopefully can knock out some of player 6 tomorrow. @Mopar I haven't messed with that score motor switch anymore I figured I would wait to turn it on again until after the score reels are completely done.

    #199 4 years ago
    Quoted from homegameroom:

    Keep up the good work!
    My .02; I've had 2 bowlers that had wiring shorting out where the larger harnesses were clamped down (I guess years of vibration had thinned the insulation a little bit) - you may want to check that out if you still have issues.
    Also, be sure all the switches have the fishpaper insulator intact. Funky things can happen when fishpaper is broken or missing....

    Thanks for the advice will definitely double check all switches. Always seems it's some silly crap like that where the root of the troubles lie.

    #200 4 years ago

    Had another productive day today. I got 2 more score reels knocked out on player 6 so that means only 2 more to go. Hoping to get them knocked out tomorrow afternoon. When I finish up these last 2 I never want to hear the words "score reels" ever again.

    #201 4 years ago

    Hallelujah!!! The last 2 score reels are 100% finished and in record time no less. Now time to start diagnosing electrical and switch problems. No scratch that its time for a celebratory beer and then electrical and switch issues.

    Screenshot_20190806-142624_Clock (resized).jpgScreenshot_20190806-142624_Clock (resized).jpg
    #202 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Is the Bank Reset in the stack that's in the 2nd pic?

    Tim the bank reset switch is the last one in the stack on the 4th position switch.

    20190806_144403 (resized).jpg20190806_144403 (resized).jpg
    #203 4 years ago

    One more observation when game is powered up and drop a dime all score reels reset except the 1000 point reel in player 1. Also it starts at 2nd player and not 1st and of course I still have the issue of the locking on bank coil until I manually turn the score motor to reset position.

    #205 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    What number is that 1000 reel starting at when you try to reset the machine?
    Try a different number, like 8 or 9, and see what happens.
    Just for fun.

    It doesnt move at all. Was at zero then I took it loose and moved it to 3 and it still stayed at 3.

    #206 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    What number is that 1000 reel starting at when you try to reset the machine?
    Try a different number, like 8 or 9, and see what happens.
    Just for fun.

    It was set at zero after cleaning and then I moved it to 3rd position and it still didn't move after that

    #207 4 years ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    It was set at zero after cleaning and then I moved it to 3rd position and it still didn't move after that

    Originally the 1st and 2nd player 1000 reels wouldnt reset but now its just the 1st player. Since now the game starts in 2nd player mode I was wondering if there was some kind of correlation between the 2.

    #209 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Bill, I'd recheck the run-out switch (opens when zero is reached) in the 1st Players S.R.
    Also, at start up, is the Player Unit fully resetting, then stepping up one time?
    I think first it may be best to consentrate on the score motor.
    Is the score motor's run-out switch landing in its cams notch and opening, but yet the Bank Coil
    switch remains closed (at start up)?

    I will test all of your suggestions this afternoon and report back what my finding are. What does seem odd is that before I cleaned all the steppers is that the score motor was giving me no problems and the bank coil was working just fine as well.

    #210 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Bill, I'd recheck the run-out switch (opens when zero is reached) in the 1st Players S.R.
    Also, at start up, is the Player Unit fully resetting, then stepping up one time?
    I think first it may be best to consentrate on the score motor.
    Is the score motor's run-out switch landing in its cams notch and opening, but yet the Bank Coil
    switch remains closed (at start up)?

    Mopar is it possible that one of the stepper units could be causing the score motor to not complete its full revolution? The more I thought about it before i took apart and cleaned all the steppers that score motor and that bank coul were working perfectly. Just trying to draw a line definitely between maybe a couple things to make it easier to dial in the root problem.

    #212 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    I had never had your exact machine, but I don't see how a step up would have an effect on the score motor
    that way..
    It seems the score motor has to be completing its revolution. Does the run-out switch (breaks circuit to score motor)
    drop in the cam's notch as it should for the score motor to stop on the yellow?
    If not, then what is opening that switch for the score motor to stop prematurely?

    No, the score motor is not completing a full Revolution. It is stopping at the last tooth before it hits the yellow line and that is when the bank relay coil engages and locks on. In order to stop it from staying locked on I have to physically turn it where it goes up that last tooth and drops down on the back side of that tooth and lines up with the yellow line which will disengage the bank relay coil.

    #215 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    You need to observe and check why the run-out switch that breaks the current to the score motor
    is breaking before it completes its revolution..

    Tim can you see in this pic when the yellow line is lined up with its switch if you look acriss at the zero poition switch it hasn't dropped down into the gap yet. Is this whats causing the problem?

    20190807_151048 (resized).jpg20190807_151048 (resized).jpg
    #216 4 years ago

    Also just noticed that when the score wheel gets to this position right before it resets and gets hung up that the 4th position switches close. If I manually turn it over the hump a game starts and then I can push a rollover switch and one of 10 switches along the back wall and the 1st shot relay trips. The score motor does not move and the only way to get to a second shot is to manually move it. Then it will try to reset but repeats the process of getting stuck before its reset point and then I manually move it to zeri and it advances to 2nd player even though 2 player hasn't been selected.

    15652099852877483177749733237057 (resized).jpg15652099852877483177749733237057 (resized).jpg20190807_152454 (resized).jpg20190807_152454 (resized).jpg
    #217 4 years ago

    On a positive note I took the nuber 1 and the number 4 score reels of player 1 and sanded the contacts of the switches a little more and then the 1000 reel started resetting. Woohoo at least something positive to report today so far.

    #218 4 years ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    Tim can you see in this pic when the yellow line is lined up with its switch if you look acriss at the zero poition switch it hasn't dropped down into the gap yet. Is this whats causing the problem?[quoted image]

    Just took that whole score wheel cam out to see if it adjusted but it doesn't so no way to adjust that zero switch I guess. It drops about 1/16" after the outside switch on the toothed cam.

    #220 4 years ago

    Okay this is my observation of the switch positions when the score wheel gets to the point where it hangs up.
    1st position: top switch closed. Center switch open. Bottom switch is open.
    Zero position: Both switches closed.
    2nd position: switch is open
    3rd position: both switches are open.
    4th position: all 3 switches are closed.

    What is it that I am missing here?

    15652127499017720991389717091932 (resized).jpg15652127499017720991389717091932 (resized).jpg1565212775350914998289271823523 (resized).jpg1565212775350914998289271823523 (resized).jpg15652128158074653079005672686835 (resized).jpg15652128158074653079005672686835 (resized).jpg
    #221 4 years ago

    Man and I thought I hated score reels. At this point I really hate score motors worse and would rather mess with nasty ass score reels.

    #223 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    If you turn the cam slightly, the motor turns about 1/4 on its own and stops, right?

    No, the motor only runs initially when a coin is dropped and then stops completely at that point before making its initial revolution. Even after I help it get past that spot where it gets hung up it will not turn anymore on its own.
    In proper working order after the game is started and the motor runs and resets itself what should it be doing to indicate it's working correctly? Since it isn't working and I haven't actually seen it working i'm not exactly sure what I should be looking for. Also I am just trying to make logical guesses as to what this thing is trying to do since there are no manuals for it.

    Is it possible or logical that once the initial coin is dropped and score motor is turning that once it hits the spot where it locks up that even though I help it over that last tooth that it never is actually entering a game mode because of the fault?

    I would assume after initial reset and ready to play that as you trip the rollovers that the score motor should turn and advance as the turn progresses and then after the turn is completed is when the score is calculated is that correct?

    Also I am assuming that one players turn of 2 pucks encompasses 1 complete revolution of the score motor and as the motor comes fully around that once it hits the yellow line again that it would either go to the next frame in single player or advance to the next player is that correct?

    #226 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    It would be nice to have a schematic.

    I posted a wanted ad for a schematic when I picked up the machine and just reposted that ad again.

    Quoted from Mopar:

    Once the Start Relay gets reset, the circuitry gets cut from the score motor.

    When you say start relay are you referring to the lock relay?

    #230 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    My "start" relay is on the enormous bank that has a ton of stuff plus frames 1-9 or 10.
    I know we have different machines, but maybe it'll help.[quoted image]

    Thanks Ron i'll be outta work her in bout an hour and will check mine when I get home. I iust don't remember there being a start relay. I know I have lock relay and coin relay for sure but I will be checking as soon as I get home.

    #232 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Yes, the Start Relay is in the Relay Bank. Probably the end one on the left..
    It's the one that triggers when the Coin Relay energizes..

    Yeppers you are correct!

    20190808_141003 (resized).jpg20190808_141003 (resized).jpg
    #233 4 years ago

    Just sanded all switch contacts in the start relay. Also found the switch that causes the score motor to turn.

    20190808_142857 (resized).jpg20190808_142857 (resized).jpg
    #235 4 years ago

    Ok so after the cleaning of those switch contacts dropped a dime and it began a game. It went through all 10 frames and played a complete game kind of.

    1st observation is that sometimes on your first turn none of the rollovers except the back row that confirms a shot register so you get no points for that roll and 1st shot relay trips. Then on your 2nd roll the switches all work just fine and it goes back to working fine for a few frames.

    2nd observation is that for some reason only 6th player single score reel scored 6 points even though it was in 1 player mode.

    So i'm really happy with this progress but now it's got a lot of dialing in I guess to do.

    #236 4 years ago

    One other thing I forgot to add was that one time instead of carrying over to the hundred real it didnt give those pointed and started over scoring on the 1st 2 reels.

    #239 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Serious breakthrough moment today! I bet you had a big smile on!
    Job well done boss.

    Thanks Ron definitely feels good to see things go from dead to half ass working.

    #240 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    You'll want to clean and adjust the switches that are close in the !st Shot and Game Over Relays when those relays
    are in the reset position..

    When the Player Unit is reset (on the 1st Player) check if any of the wipers are slightly touching rivets that they shouldn't be touching.
    if so, you'll need to loosen and turn the wiper board slight..

    You'll want to clean and adjust the 9th position switch (the switch that is only closed when on 9) in the 10s score reel on that player,
    but first adjust the Player Unit. There's a slight chance the issue could be there..

    Ran outta time to mess with it anymore tonight so will get back to it tomorrow afternoon.

    #241 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    but first adjust the Player Unit. There's a slight chance the issue could be there..

    When you say "loosen and turn the wiper board" if I take the center nut loose and the wiper assembly is loose how do you adjust it? I thought it only went on that center shaft one way since it has that rectangular slot that the wiper assembly slips onto.

    #242 4 years ago

    So I cleaned those switches that were suggested and also in the score reel. Now whats happened is that the first shot of frame 1 works but 2nd shot of frame 1 doesnt. The 100 reel isnt scoring until the 2nd time around and also the 6th player for whatever reason still has 1 point scored even though I'm on a 1 player game.

    #244 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    6th player issue sounds like a bare or crossed wire to me. Follow that wire back to see if anything is touching somewhere.

    Weird thing is that its only scoring like 1 point on the 1st reel of player 6 and thats it

    #247 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    I have a busy weekend, but the wiper is not adjustable, but the wiper board slightly does move after loosening
    the two screws. First you'll want to see if the wiper is a little out of line with the wiper board..

    One finger looked to be just a little off and I was able to bend it a bit which straightened it up but did not fix the problem. Still have a few more bank switches plus all the rollover switches that need to have their contacts cleaned which is my plan for today. As it sits now my problems are; The pin rollover switches aren't working all the time on the 2nd shot only the ones against the back that verify a shot. The 100 reel is sometimes not counting even though I have removed that reel and cleaned those switch contacts. Lastly the score reel on player 6 for some reason will register 1 to 6 points while in 1 player mode. Feels like I am getting closer to the end and I can see the light now at the end of the tunnel.

    #249 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    I can tell by your time stamps that you are seriously working on this thing! Either that, or you are an insomniac!

    That must put you in my same category because you are awake reading this crap at 2am also which I guess is 3am your time.

    #251 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    You hadn't cleaned the player unit's board with steel wool, had you?
    If so, I'd redo it with scotch brite. If not, there may be an unknown
    connection on the backside if the wiper board..

    No steel wool on the stepper boards. Only on a couple of switches in the relay stack.

    #252 4 years ago

    Well not sure what happened but i sanded and then cleaned every single switch in the switch bank. Thinking I had just scored some big points with the mechanics of the game only to power it on and be confused. Drop a dime and start a game and roll 1 works fine and trips 1st shot relay. Roll 2 comes up and rollover switches also respond and then 2nd shit relay trips and score motor runs. However, now no points are registering on the score reels, except 1 point on player 6. Anyone have any insight here as I am thoroughly confused here. I even went back and looked at ever switch to make sure they were making contact when they should and weren't when they shouldn't.

    #254 4 years ago

    I've got the machine registering the scores again on the score reels. Apparently when I was cleaning all those contacts I must have bent one and it wasn't making contact. I found it today when double checking all those contact and blowing them all out with compressed air.
    Also I have verified that the point that is registering to player 6 always happens on the 2nd frame. I played 3 games and knocked down all pins for a strike so it registered the 1 point and no more the rest of the game.
    Also i'm still having issues with the 100 score reel on player 1 not engaging the first time around. I also think it skips at least 1 more time throughout the course of a game. I guess I will have to sit there and manually figure the score after each frame to verify if there is a pattern to it skipping.

    #256 4 years ago
    Quoted from PM_Jeremy:

    You're making good progress

    Thanks Jeremy I sure as hell am trying but these little oddball problems are whats holding me up now. I've been on the pinwiki site a bit trying to track down the score reel issue since it is actually 2 issues pertaining to the same piece of hardware but theres nothing relating to my problem. Since I know that the 2nd frame is where the 6th player is getting that 1 point added i'm thinking I need to triple check the frame stepper again? Not at all sure what to do with the score reel issues as I have taken them back out and apart to double check my initial cleaning job. Hoping someone can weigh in with some more insight on where to go next to solve these last few problems.

    #257 4 years ago

    So i've double checked the score wheel switches again and they all seem to be correct. No changes and still all the same problems exist. Does anyone have any insight on where to go next?

    #259 4 years ago

    Just noticed another observation that doesn't seem right to me. Game is over. If I phusically engage the 1st and 2nd player reset relay in the backbox it will pull all score reels in player 1 except the 100 unit.
    If I engage the 3rd and 4th player reset relay nothing at all happens.
    If I engage the 5th and 6th player reset relay only the 1-9 score reel engages pn player 6.
    What the hell is going on here?

    #261 4 years ago

    Tell me bout it. Just seems like I can't get over rhe damn hump. I did notice that when i manually pulse those relays they only turn until they make it to the reset position. Still not sure if this process is correct though?

    #263 4 years ago
    Quoted from PM_Jeremy:

    I found a good United service manual here: http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-arcade/United%201954%20TEAM%20SHUFFLE%20%20Service%20Manual.pdf
    It's not exact for your machine but it does a great job at explaining what each mechanical unit does and what the function of each relay is. This can be very helpful in troubleshooting
    There are some other manuals here https://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals/manuals_em_arcade.php

    This Player stepper unit sounds like it pertains to my issue of scoring points to player 6. Pretty sure I have already looked at this but I will definitely revisit it. Still not seeing anything about my score reel issue though.

    Screenshot_20190813-114047_Drive (resized).jpgScreenshot_20190813-114047_Drive (resized).jpg
    #264 4 years ago

    Well I pulled the player stepper back out and looked it over to see if it was potentially misaligned. Turned out it wasn't so I looked at all the rest while I was in detective mode. The Frame stepoer was a bit off so I pulled the finger thingy off and loosened the bakelite and adjusted it. Again no change. So here I still sit with the same damn problems.

    #265 4 years ago
    Quoted from PM_Jeremy:

    I found a good United service manual here: http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-arcade/United%201954%20TEAM%20SHUFFLE%20%20Service%20Manual.pdf
    It's not exact for your machine but it does a great job at explaining what each mechanical unit does and what the function of each relay is. This can be very helpful in troubleshooting
    There are some other manuals here https://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals/manuals_em_arcade.php

    Jeremy I printed it out and have been over it probably 5 or 6 times. I was thinking or actually hoping it was just a misaligned stepper but that isn't the case. I wiggled every wire on each stepper to see if I potentially had a bad solder joint but found none of those either. Unclear how to proceed with tracking this down.

    #266 4 years ago

    Not the same game obviously but same year and very similar.

    20190814_085912 (resized).jpg20190814_085912 (resized).jpg
    #268 4 years ago

    No idea what i'm supposed to do at this point

    #270 4 years ago

    Yep but he hasn't responded to my last 2 requests

    #272 4 years ago

    I've done what the pinrepair site suggested. I've done what Mopar suggested. I've even bought 4 of the TOP videos hoping for some insight. I've reached out and sent pm's to multiple users most of which haven't even responded. Pretty much just aggravated with it at this point.

    #273 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    If there's anything you haven't yet gone through, I'd go through..
    That actually should be done right from the get-go..
    I'm sure you made sure all the pluggins are clean..

    Tim thank you for all your guidance and assistance up until this point. All plug-ins have been cleaned. All contacts with the exception of the rollover switches on the playfield have been cleaned. The only things left to remedy are the 100 scoring reel and player 6 scoring 1 point in 2nd frame only. I have taken out the 1-9, 10-90 and the 100 score reels in player 1 and re sanded the switch contacts just to make sure they were clean. I also took out the 1-9 score reel in player 6 to make sure it was all clean and working properly. I have gone back through and made sure all the fingers were 100% properly aligned with the buttons on the bakelite boards of all the steppers. All bakelite boards on the steppers have had a light layer of superlube applied to each of them. I have also checked each and every wire going to every contact on each stepper unit to make sure there were no bad cold solder joints. Whatever I have been told to check, clean or rebuild has been done. With all that has been done I gerl whatever it is that's holding me back has to be trivial. There is no way it can be some big complicated problem.

    #275 4 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    If it only happens in the 2nd frame then I would recheck the 2nd frame relay for a switch that is possibly gaped too close and being set off by vibrations.

    Will definitely check that tomorrow. Thanks for the tip Ken.

    #277 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Okay, is it one of the reels in the 1st Player that isn't resetting at start up?
    If so, with all the reels on the 1st and 2nd Players on any number but zero, with the machine
    on, but before start up, you can take a small screwdriver and slip it in between the contacts of
    the 1st and 2nd Player Reset Relay and find out which set of switches triggers each reel of the
    1st and 2nd Players. When you locate the set that doesn't trigger any of the reels in the 1st and
    2nd Players, that's the set that will have to be addressed..
    Once you're at that point, we'll take other steps..
    If you don't find it before, we can address the 6th Player's 1 point in the 2nd Frame later..

    Tim, the problem isn't that the score reel doesn't reset at start up. The problem is that it isn't registering when it should so the scoring isn't accurate. For example if I knock down 3 strikes that gives me 90 points which registers fine on score reels. Then on 4th shot if I knock down a strike instead of it scoring 120 points, only the 20 scores and the 100 is lost because it doesn't register. So now you are in the 4th frame with only 20 points. It will take 2 or 3 more strikes to then make the 100 reel start to engage but at that point the scoring is way out of wack. The 1000 reel works just fine with no problems its just that 100 reel.

    #279 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    You can close the 9th position switch in the 10's score reel with an elegator clip
    then that score reel should energize each time the 10-90 Score relay is manually
    triggered. That way you don't have to wait for the 10s Score Reel to be on 90.
    If it works every time, then I'd re-inspect the 9th position switch in the 10's Score
    Reel. If there's still problems, then I'd activate the 10-90 Score Relay while separately
    lifting each blade off of the Player Unit and find which blade the circuitry travels through
    and then inspect that rivet (backside also) that that blade is on..

    Thank you Tim I will pursue this lead later today and report back my findings.

    #280 4 years ago

    Only had a couple minutes to mess with it tonight I forgot kiddos have a function at school tonight. Have a function tomorrow evening as well so will hopefully get a chance to mess with b4 then but definitely on sunday.

    #281 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    You can close the 9th position switch in the 10's score reel with an elegator clip
    then that score reel should energize each time the 10-90 Score relay is manually
    triggered. That way you don't have to wait for the 10s Score Reel to be on 90.
    If it works every time, then I'd re-inspect the 9th position switch in the 10's Score
    Reel. If there's still problems, then I'd activate the 10-90 Score Relay while separately
    lifting each blade off of the Player Unit and find which blade the circuitry travels through
    and then inspect that rivet (backside also) that that blade is on..

    Ok Tim just had a little time this morning to mess with it. I put an alligator clip closing the 9 position switch in the 10 score reel on player 1. I seem to be getting erratic behavior now though along with the original problems. Now it's registering the 1 point to player 6 after the 1st frame. Also the 100 reel engaged in the 3rd frame but did not engage again the nxt time it should have. Also for some reason the 5 pin has started acting funny and not retracting up into the head but is registering in strikes and spares.
    Thats all for now more to come later.

    #283 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Good to see you back!

    Yeah crazy, school started this week and no tume to do anything. Gonna mess with it today some and hopefully make some kind of progress.

    #285 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    What you can try is taking the Player Unit wiper off, and with a channel locks/vise grips, squeezing its
    center hub to make sure that it's tight together. You can also check it's blades for continuity on the blades
    that are together where continuity should be. You can do the same with the Frame Unit wiper, although
    most likely it's not in the frame Unit..

    The issue here is most likely the 5 pin unit switch is not making good contact when the 5 pin is down, or a set of switches
    in the 5 Pin Relay isn't making good contact when the 5 Pin Relay is in the energized position..

    Down here messing with this for a few minutes. I took the whole player stepper unit loose, took the finger unit off and then took the bakelite board loose. Checked for any loose wires or cracked solder joints found none. Put it back together and started a game. The game is scoring incorrectly right from the start. For a strike it is scoring 50 points when it should be 30 and then out of generosity it gives player 6 the 1 point in frame 1. The hundred reel is still messing up as well and now I noticed something else thats not right. Frame 7 started I knocked all pins for strike and it awarded 210 points. The extra shots frames lit up and I knocked strikes each time it awarded 210 points. After the extra shots frames it should have advanced to the 8th frame but it stayed in the 7th frame and made me shoot it again after that it advanced to the 8th frame. It then went through the nxt 2 frames and game over. Just so I am 100% clear here as to how this is supposed to be scoring, no matter what a strike is worth 30 and a spare is worth 20 right? Or am I supposed to score the amount above the frame number on the backglass because it is scoring the amounts on the backglass sometimes. Frame 1 it scored 50 points and the backglass says 30??? This thing has me all kinds of confused at this point.

    #286 4 years ago

    Forgot the pics to above post

    20190818_154153 (resized).jpg20190818_154153 (resized).jpg20190818_154440 (resized).jpg20190818_154440 (resized).jpg
    #290 4 years ago

    Okay then just so I am clear the number of points that is associated with the frame number on the back glass is then the number you should get for a score and NOT 30 as the playfield states if you get a strike right? Because it's weird that the scores incease by 30 points each frame on the backglass. The playfield stating the 30/20 is what was leading me to believe that it was only 30 points per strike per frame.

    #292 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    There's no question. The scoring is what is indicate on the backglass
    for each frame..
    It looks as if United just continued to use their standard lane from
    that era than to construct one specifically for the Mercury, or at least
    for the Mercury you have (maybe left over lanes)..
    The one point givin' to the 6th player seems would be in the
    Player Unit (?), but more importantly (for now) is that the basic
    accurate scoring gets worked out..

    Yes I agree I just want the scoring to work 100% so I can build in moving forward from that. Any idea what would cause it to start out with 50 points then instead of the 30 thats listed on the backglass?

    #294 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    It scores 50 with all players?
    Seems it would do it in other frames also,
    but I'd still check the 10 - 90 relay.
    It maybe could use a little stiffing up..

    Not sure about multiple players scoring 50 pts in 1st frame as I have only been testing it in single player mode. I messed with 10-90 relay made sure all switches were hitting and making good contact.

    #295 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Perhaps there's a setting in the head (maybe the coffin) where frames can
    be set for extra shots after making a strike(s)..

    I only found these 3 plugs in the nackbox that allow you to move the wires to a different set of contacts but none say anything bout frame adjustment.

    20190818_193022 (resized).jpg20190818_193022 (resized).jpg20190818_193033 (resized).jpg20190818_193033 (resized).jpg20190818_193041 (resized).jpg20190818_193041 (resized).jpg
    #297 4 years ago

    Well no changes to functionality to report but I did finish up replacing the power cord today. Was definitely something that needed to be done as the old one was seriously sketchy.

    20190819_142814 (resized).jpg20190819_142814 (resized).jpg
    #299 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Nice work!
    Looks as though you and I were on the same page today, but you finished!

    I thought it would just be done in a few minutes but it turned out to be a major pain in the ass. There was very little give on that little plate that the fuse's mount too and it was hard as hell to get my soldering iron in there and also on the secondary outlet that the white wire went to it was the same story on that. A little 10-minute job turned into 2 hours but hey at least it's done now and it works that's all I'm concerned about

    #301 4 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    Power cords are never a 10 minute job when done the right way. Looks easy, basically easy, yet very time consuming. Nice work.

    Thanks Ken. I should have known it wouldn't be a 10 minute job cause there's no such thing. Just glad it is done and that's one more thing checked off the list.

    #302 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    It scores 50 with all players?
    Seems it would do it in other frames also,
    but I'd still check the 10 - 90 relay.
    It maybe could use a little stiffing up..

    Ok Tim I decieed to try a 2 player game since all I have been doing is testing in 1 player mode. Right away I knew I had a problem as the 2nd dime didn't light up the 2 on the backglass. Then as soon as I played a frame it never went to player 2 and instead went to frame 2 of player 1.

    #304 4 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    I would check your Player Unit by hand. Does the stepper move freely advancing and resetting? If not you need to tear it apart and service it.

    All steppers have been 100% dissected and thoroughly cleaned. I even took the player stepper back apart yesterday to look for any loose or broken wires on the bakelite rivet board. The scoring is erratic at best because now on the 1st shot its scoring 40 points where it was scoring 50 points.

    #307 4 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    Check your "Player Reset Relay" for a switch not adjusted correctly, if you have one. Also if you have a "Reset Relay."

    Thanks Ken I will investigate that lead today when I get home.

    #308 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    On the Frame Unit there should be a make-break switch (that's 3 blades where the middle switch touches one
    or the other outside switches). While on the 1st frame, the middle switch should touch one of the outside blades
    which completes the circuit to the Coin Relay. You'll want to make certain those switches are making true
    contact. Once on any other frame except the 1st Frame (2-10), the center blade should touch the other
    outside contact which transfers the circuitry to the Start Relay..
    Remember, never do all 3 blades make contact with each other. The center blade only touches one or the other
    outside switches..

    Tim I am pretty certain I did this already but I will definitely double check this today.

    #310 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Once that make break switch makes while in the 1st Frame, the only other open switch
    to complete the circuit to the Coin Step Up should be the coin switch..
    Note: After putting in the first coin, you need to wait for the machine to reset before
    putting in the 2nd coin so that the machine first has a chance to go to the 1st frame..

    Ok Tim that's good to know cause i'm not sure if I waited for it to fully reset b4 dropping a 2nd dime. Will be pursuing these leads this afternoon and hopefully will have something positive to report.

    #312 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Because it seemed you knew the 2nd Player light should be lit after dropping the 2nd dime,
    I took it as the Coin Unit didn't step up to two Players, and I'm pretty sure that is the case,
    but if by any chance it did step up but you hadn't realized the lights weren't working, then
    as Ken said checking a closed set of contacts (when not energized) in the Player Reset Relay
    is where I would first check next, but that's only if the Coin Relay actually did step up once, but
    I have a pretty good idea that it hadn't..

    Im getting ready to head down and mess around with here shortly. I knew it didn't add a 2nd player cause it never switched to a 2nd player and just went to the 2nd frame of player one.

    #313 4 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    Check your "Player Reset Relay" for a switch not adjusted correctly, if you have one. Also if you have a "Reset Relay."

    Hey Ken here is the resting position of my player reset relay I do not have a reset relay. Looks right to me.

    20190820_173507 (resized).jpg20190820_173507 (resized).jpg
    #314 4 years ago

    I dropped a dime and game started. I waited till all score reels were reset and dropped a dime for 2nd player and the player unit never stepped up.

    #315 4 years ago

    Heres what I have. 1st dime dropped lock relay engages and stays locked on, coin relay engages and releases, player reset relay engages and hold while score motor rest then releases. The player stepper id definitely not stepping up. I took the fingers loose and wiped a little more super lube on it to make sure it was mo ing freely and it was but after trying again it still wouldn't step up.

    #319 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    After the 2nd dime is dropped in, the Player Unit isn't suppose step up. The Coin Step Up Unit is suppose to step up.
    That's what you want to check out, if the Coin Unit stepped up one step from its reset position after the 2nd coin has been
    dropped in..

    Ahhh I thought the player unit was the one that stepped up. I will have to check if the coin stepper is moving later today.

    #321 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    On some shuffles, the 1st Player, 2nd player, 3rd Player, ect. will light to show how many players are playing.
    That's what I first thought you were talking about, but after taking another look at the backglass,
    your machine has the common United's 1,2,3,4,5,6 numbers to show the amount of players playing..
    Right after start up, the number 1 should be lit for the amount of Players. The 2nd dime should step up
    the Coin Step Up Unit, and then show 2 for the amount of Players.
    Right after start up, you can manually step up the Coin Unit to make sure the bulbs for the amount of
    Players are okay and that they light..

    I can tell you that when I manually engaged the coin relay the machine still did not show two players. On top of not showing two players on the back class it also did not switch to a second player after the first players turn.

    #323 4 years ago

    Okay so after further inspection the coin Step Up unit is not stepping up when a second coin is dropped. However if I move it manually second player light does light up and second player does work. However interestingly enough I am having the exact same problem with the scoring reel not scoring hundreds and erratic scoring on two player as I am on the one player. Also it's still scores 1 point in 2 player mode to player 6 even in two player mode after the first frame.

    #325 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Okay, so it's obvious that the Coin Relay energizes when the first coin is dropped in. I would have to assume that it also
    energizes when the 2nd coin is dropped in , but nothing at that point happens, right?

    If I drop a 2nd coin the game resets and score reels do a full reset but stays at 1 player.

    Are you certain that the Player Unit's wiper isn't 180 degrees off. Are there colored lines (red, yellow (?)) that line up with the wiper
    with its board when the Unit is in the reset position?

    Player unit has the yellow line and it is resetting. Heres the player stepper reset to zero.
    20190821_173356 (resized).jpg20190821_173356 (resized).jpg

    #326 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Okay, so it's obvious that the Coin Relay energizes when the first coin is dropped in. I would have to assume that it also
    energizes when the 2nd coin is dropped in , but nothing at that point happens, right?

    When 2nd coin is dropped the score reels start resetting like when you drop the 1st coin and then its back to player 1 only.

    #328 4 years ago

    Ok here is the machine in the reset position.

    20190821_195637 (resized).jpg20190821_195637 (resized).jpg20190821_195713 (resized).jpg20190821_195713 (resized).jpg
    #329 4 years ago

    Here it is with a dime dropped and a game started.

    20190821_201149 (resized).jpg20190821_201149 (resized).jpg
    #331 4 years ago

    Tim am I misunderstanding your description or do the pics look correct to you? It seems to my untrained eye that they are doing as they are supposed to but your insight is most definitely appreciated.

    #332 4 years ago

    When the stepper is reset the cam returns to zero and the little arm pushes the center switch against the switch on the right closing it. As it then steps up it then breaks the switch connection on the right and then connects to the switch on the left. I just want to be clear that this is the correct operation that you are describing is this correct?

    #334 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Bill, this is what you need to check..
    When the Frame Unit is on the 1st Frame, center blade should be touching
    the blade on the right. Once on the 2nd frame, the center switch should let go of the
    switch on the right, and touch the switch on the left.
    So after a dime is put in, it's on the 1st Frame and the center blade should be touching
    the blade on the right. Then once it's stepped up one time and on the 2nd Frame, the
    center blade should let go of the right blade, and touch the left blade..
    Note: At total reset, the center blade will be touching the blade on the right which is
    fine, but it still needs to be touching the right blade when it's on the 1st Frame..

    I am almost 100% positive that this is exactly what it is doing but I will absolutely double-check this process as soon as I get home today.

    #336 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    In the pic when it's in the start up position (1st Frame), it's off. The center switch should still be touching the blade on the right,
    not the left one..

    Ok Tim so here is what is going on now. This pic is after a coin is dropped in frame number 1. The center switch has seperated from the switch on the right and is now making contact with the switch on the left. After re-reading your prior post it seems this is wrong and should still be making contact with the switch on the right until the 1st frame is complete and it steps up to the 2nd frame where then it should make contact with the left switch?

    #337 4 years ago

    Forgot the damn pic, here it is.

    20190822_145725 (resized).jpg20190822_145725 (resized).jpg
    #338 4 years ago

    Okay so I adjusted that switch and have it to where it doesn't make contact with the left switch until it steps up from frame 1 to frame 2. Game starts fine in 1 player mode but i'm still confused with this scoring.
    If we are saying that the points you get are what is on the backglass above that frames number then why am I still getting 50 points for frame 1 with a strike when that backglass says 30? If I get a spare interestingly enough it scores 20 points like the bachglass states for a spare.
    Also it is still not engaging the 100 reel until the 4th frame and that is every single time. Nxt thing is that it is either frame 1 or frame 2 but either way it is still giving 1 point in either of those frames to player 6.
    In the 6th frame it never adds the correct amount and always leaves the hundred reel out.
    The 7th frame scored correctly and went through the extra shots frame but after that it restarted the 7th frame again.
    The 8th frame once again didn't register the 100 reel on first strike. On 1st extra frame shot of same frame a spare score registered correctly. In 2nd extra ftame of same frame a strike didn't engage the 100 reel.
    The 9th frame a strike scored properly.
    The 10 frame a strike recorded properly but no extra shots were awarded for a strike

    #340 4 years ago

    Yes a lot going on I know but those were all the observations I kept seeing and didn't document and as I was going through this time I just wanted to document everything so we knew what was really going on here. Good news is that yes now if I start a game wait till the score reels are done resetting drop another dime player two lights up on the number of players and the game does not reset.

    #341 4 years ago

    Okay so interestingly enough I put it in two player mode got a strike on player one and a strike on player 2 and it' scored 40 points this time for each one of them. Still erratic scoring throughout the course of the game. However it is switching between players just as it should so thats a plus.

    #345 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    At start up, if you manually tap the 1 - 9 Relay fairly rapidly, every 10th tap,
    does the 10 - 90 Relay energize only one time?
    So after 20 taps, does the score register 200?

    So i started a game. Tapped the 1-9 relay 10 times and the 10-90 relay engaged on the 10th tap. 3 of the legs of the 10-99 sparked but nothing happened after 20 taps the score reel registered 20. 1st pic is just a reference pic. Its mighty damn tuff to get a pic of those switches engaged.

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    #346 4 years ago

    Score motor wiper board assebly after a completed game.

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    #348 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    On the 10 - 90 Relay, that last set of contacts on the right look to be maybe a little close together.
    Perhaps the very last contact on the right could be adjusted to the right just a little bit so that it has
    a bit more gap..
    Also, in the straight on pic of the score motor's wiper board, the blade on the right that rides on the center
    row of rivets may be a little bit toward the outside, and perhaps it occasionally may be nicking a rivet
    of the 2nd outside row. It looks as if you haven't much more adjustment room, but maybe you can
    loosen the wiper screw and pull the wiper out just a bit so that that blade comes inside a bit.
    If it is nicking a rivet(s) on the 2nd outside row during its revolution, it may be the thing that is adding
    and extra 10 or 20 points to the score..

    Ok Tim I will have to try that when I get home tomorrow it's bedtime here and time to put the kiddos to bed. If anything else comes to mind just post it and I will try it tomorrow also.

    #350 4 years ago
    Quoted from PM_Jeremy:

    Good progress!

    Thanks Jeremy, it has been a challenge up to this point to say the least. Maybe after I finally graduate from this project I will be ready to take on a big ball bowler project

    #352 4 years ago
    Quoted from PM_Jeremy:

    You will be- as the mechanicals are the exact same. Just the lanes and ball lift motor are the main differences.

    Yeah I don't know if Tim could put up with me on another project he's probably already tearing his hair out every time I post a new problem to solve. Plus those big ball Bowlers seem to be pretty damn rare around this part of the country they very rarely come up for sale and when they do they're pretty pricey. Ultimately though I do want to use the knowledge I gained from this Shuffle bowler to eventually acquire a big ball bowler because I think that would be the highlight of my basement for sure.

    #353 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    On the 10 - 90 Relay, that last set of contacts on the right look to be maybe a little close together.
    Perhaps the very last contact on the right could be adjusted to the right just a little bit so that it has
    a bit more gap..
    Also, in the straight on pic of the score motor's wiper board, the blade on the right that rides on the center
    row of rivets may be a little bit toward the outside, and perhaps it occasionally may be nicking a rivet
    of the 2nd outside row. It looks as if you haven't much more adjustment room, but maybe you can
    loosen the wiper screw and pull the wiper out just a bit so that that blade comes inside a bit.
    If it is nicking a rivet(s) on the 2nd outside row during its revolution, it may be the thing that is adding
    and extra 10 or 20 points to the score..

    Ok so just getting a chance to mess with it here tonight. I adjusted the far right switch a bit wider on the 10-90 relay.
    Also took the wiper arm loose from score motor and sanded and cleaned again and reapplied a thin layer of super lube. Upon reassembly of wiper arm I noticed when the yellow lines were lined up they werent touching any rivets.
    I was wondering if that was correct or if they should actually be making contact? Pics below show hopefully what I am seeing. Can anyone confirm this is correct or needs adjustment?

    20190823_174731 (resized).jpg20190823_174731 (resized).jpg20190823_174757 (resized).jpg20190823_174757 (resized).jpg
    #354 4 years ago

    Played a game and with the changes made in the previous post nothing has changed. All the same problems are still present.

    #357 4 years ago

    Forgot to mention that I bent that wiper arm to get it closer to center o that center run of rivets.

    #359 4 years ago

    Damn. Alright will readjust it tomorrow and report back.

    #360 4 years ago

    So I adjusted the wiper arm and pulled it out a bit but now the game is scoring 60 points after 1st frame and still adding 1 point to player 6.

    20190824_183736 (resized).jpg20190824_183736 (resized).jpg20190824_183744 (resized).jpg20190824_183744 (resized).jpg20190824_183840 (resized).jpg20190824_183840 (resized).jpg
    #362 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Bill, that blade still looks as though it's overlapping it's row of rivets, but anyways, what you can do
    is when making a strike in the 1st frame (maybe someone can run their hands over the rollovers
    while you're looking at the score motor's wiper), and check to see if you can tell what blade it is that's
    doing the strike's scoring in the first frame..
    If the lights are dim, you may be able to notice the rivets that are slightly arcing..

    Tim at this point would you say the score motor wiper arm is definitely the problem? Is it possible the switches on the score motor wheel could be causing any of this?

    #364 4 years ago

    I had my wife work the rollover switches while I watched the wiper blades move. 2 observations were that on a full rotation the wiper arm goes past the yellow mark as seen in 1st pic. 2nd point is the finger 2nd from the middle isn't leaving and rubbing trail behind on the bakelite like the other fingers are doing.

    20190824_200755 (resized).jpg20190824_200755 (resized).jpg20190824_201104 (resized).jpg20190824_201104 (resized).jpg
    #367 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    I don't think the yellow not lining up exactly is an issue..
    However, if any of the blades seem not to be making solid
    contact on its rivets then the wiper should come off and
    those blades should be bent down a little so when put back on,
    it has stronger contact..
    When putting back on, I'd tighten the set screw so that its
    as close to the edge of the end of the shaft as possible
    so that the wiper's blades are overlapping its rivets as little
    as possible..

    Thks Tim. Just took the wiper arm back off and actually did bend the 2 arms that were in question and reinstalled it. Had to run out the door b4 I could test it but will report back later with my results.

    #368 4 years ago
    Quoted from Delco_Silverball:

    Hi guys - I'm new here so take it FWIW. First, I want to say thank you to all of you for sharing your knowledge. I'm working on a 1954 United Speedy shuffle. Same year, so it's very similar to your Mercury so this thread has been tremendously helpful. I'm at about the same point you are, maybe a couple steps behind. I was able to get a schematic for mine from pinball mike, which I just received a couple days ago. Anyhow...
    I was having very similar problems with the erratic scoring. what I figured out from the schematic is that all of the switches in the player reset relays (1st and 2nd, 3rd and 4th, 5th and 6th - in the back box) need to be open, then all close when the relay fires. I wasn't sure, and it wasn't causing any problems with resetting the reels, so I didn't mess with them until now. Now that I'm trying to fine tune the scoring, I found that I had a couple that were making contact, and this was making a mess of the scoring (2 scoring reels firing at the same time, strikes scoring the wrong score, 100's reel not rolling over) It all sounds like what you're dealing with, so I thought I would share. I can't get a decent pic due to shadows...but I hope that helps!

    Interesting. I will have to check those switches later on as well. I scoured the web for a schematic for my model and nobody seems to have 1 not even steve over at pinball resource. Any chance you could post pics of that schematic?

    #369 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    I don't think the yellow not lining up exactly is an issue..
    However, if any of the blades seem not to be making solid
    contact on its rivets then the wiper should come off and
    those blades should be bent down a little so when put back on,
    it has stronger contact..
    When putting back on, I'd tighten the set screw so that its
    as close to the edge of the end of the shaft as possible
    so that the wiper's blades are overlapping its rivets as little
    as possible..

    Almost forgot I while I had it offI took a razor blade as you suggested to the insulatirs but it was super tight so much so that it wouldn't slide in there. I just blew it off with a little air can and reinstalled it.

    #370 4 years ago

    It is back to scoring 50 points for frame 1. Also still giving 1 point to player 6. I guess I will keep tweaking the wiper arm on score motor and see if I get different results.

    #372 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Those contacts must have been very close together and from vibration it interfered with the scoring.
    If they were directly touching, the score reel coils would have just remained energized.
    If you manually energize those Score Reset Relays by hand anytime during the game, if not on zero,
    you'll find that it will energize the score reels..

    With the machine off, if you slowly manually turn the score motor, you should be able to see if any of the blades are nicking
    any rivets that are not in it's row. If so, you can carefully bend the blade to form..

    Do I need to still hook upbthe alligator clio in the 100 score reel to keep the 9 switch closed while doing this?

    #374 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Bill, I was just stating a fact. I figured you already adjusted the Players Score Reset Relays, but
    you can recheck the gaps to make sure any aren't too close together..

    If those gaps look okay (and I'm thinking they are), I would check the Score Motor's wiper as stated above..

    Yes I had removed that clip after initial testing just wanted to clarify that it wasnt needed for any more current testing. I am focused on score motor but not seeing any blatantly obvious problems. Will be messing with it some more tomorrow.

    #377 4 years ago
    Quoted from Bowlerguy:

    What happens if you turn the game on and hit the gutter trigger twice? What does it score?

    It scores nothing but according to the rules it should score a "Blow" of 1 point per pinif no strike or spare is made.

    #378 4 years ago

    Ok I finally got around to figuring out how to make a video and post it to youtube so here is a link to the score motor being manually turned and inspected .

    #380 4 years ago
    Quoted from Bowlerguy:

    So is the problem that it is scoring wrong amounts?

    Yes it is definitely scoring eratic it should start out if you get a strike by getting 30 points but it gives you either 50 or 60 for the first frame with a strike. The next frame it will score the 60 points like it should the third frame if you get a strike it should add 90 points to the 90 the only problem is is the 100 real doesn't engage and instead of getting 180 points you only get 80 points. And then throughout the course of the game there's other instances where it does not do the math correctly and most of the time the 100 real does not engage until the 5th or the 6th frame and then it's erratic after that

    #383 4 years ago
    Quoted from Bowlerguy:

    Also,manually hit the 1-9 relay and the 10-90 relay to check that the reels all turn when being hit. It wont add score right if the reels dont turn when they are suppose to. This may need you took look at the reels themselves. I would check to see if this happens on all players first, this will help lead you to the problem.

    The 1-9 relay forces the teens reel to engage as it rolls from 9 to zero.
    The 10-90 score relay doesn't force the 100 reel to engage after it rolls from 9 to zero.
    (Oh boy Tim @Mopar not sure how I missed this happening before, don,t strangle me)
    The 100 score relay does engage the 1000 reel as it turns over from 9 to zero.

    All 24 scoring reels have been thoroughly disassembled and 100% cleaned and reassembled. All the switches inside the reals have also been cleaned and adjusted.

    #385 4 years ago
    Quoted from Bowlerguy:

    Then that reel needs to be adjusted.

    Really not sure what else I can do to adjust that real as stated before I took it apart and cleaned it then reassembled it. After it was still messing up I took it back out verified it was all symbol together and then reassembled it once again only to have the same issues. Is there something specifically you would suggest?

    #387 4 years ago
    Quoted from Bowlerguy:

    Slide the reel out, tap the 10-90 relay and watch it turn the reel. You should be able to see what is going on, maybe loose wire or the switch is not getting enough contact. At the same time, do the same thing to the next reel to see that it is receiving the signal.

    Ok so i just cleaned every contact again in the 10-90 relay again and it still doesn't engage the 100 score reel. I know the 100 score reel works because if I engage the 100 score relay it triggers immediately and unrestricted. I took the 10-90 and the 100 reel off cleaned switches again and all looked good. However the 100 reel is still not engaging when it should from the 10-90 reel rolling over. I checked every single wire to see if it was loose cracked or broken none of them were I also checked where the switch solder joints were to make sure that those leads were also not grounding out to short and none were. Not sure where to go next?

    #390 4 years ago
    Quoted from Bowlerguy:

    Try using a piece of metal, like a screw driver and hold it aginst the switch when it is suppose to be touching and see if that works.

    Which switch are you referring to? In the 10-90 score reel or in the 10-90 relay?

    #391 4 years ago
    Quoted from Bowlerguy:

    Look at the switch inside the score reel as it turns, not the 10-90 relay. The problem is going to be in the score reels. Either not sending the signal or receiving the signal.

    Gotcha will do and report back in a bit.

    #392 4 years ago

    Heres a new video of the 10-90 reel.

    #394 4 years ago

    Here is zero, 1st and 9th position switches just in case someone looks at them and sees something wring.wrong

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    #395 4 years ago
    Quoted from Bowlerguy:

    Try using a piece of metal, like a screw driver and hold it aginst the switch when it is suppose to be touching and see if that works.

    Ok I used a screwdriver in between the contacts on both switches each on its own pass around when it was on 9. Same results no changes. Was this what you were explaining for me to do?

    #397 4 years ago

    Tim the step up unit isn't moving throughout the course of a game should it? This is its position on the 4th frame of the game.

    20190826_185524 (resized).jpg20190826_185524 (resized).jpg
    #398 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    If I remember correctly, I think we tried this quite sometime ago (maybe with an alagator clip) so
    that the 100s reel should have turned with each hit on the 10-90 Relay.
    Then I believe I ask for you to try the same on Player 2, and that's when you found out it wouldn't
    go to Player 2 and then we addressed that problem..
    So now that it goes to multiple players, how about checking if the 100s reel rolls for the 2nd Player..
    If not, we'll have a better idea on where to look. If so, then check with the other Players to make
    sure all but Player 1 has this issue where the 100s reel doesn't roll over..
    We'll get back to the scoring problem later. I still have questions on one of the wiper blades..

    Thanks for the insight Tim I will definitely jump back on this tomorrow afternoon when I get home and report back. I only ever tried rhe alligator clup on player 1 never on player 2.

    #400 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    I thought that's what we tried.
    Before using an alligator clip on Player 2, just check if the 100s reel rolls normally.
    When on Player 2, give the 10-90 Relay 10 manual taps and check if the Player 2
    100s reel rolled..
    On the Player Step Up, no, if it's on only 1 Player it doesn't move. It only needs to
    remain on Player 1. For a two player game, it'll step up once for the 2nd Player,
    then reset to go back to the 1st player..
    BTW, on your score motor video. Being on an angle, it was tough to see, but when
    the blade that rides on the second outside row of rivets, it looked pretty close to
    touching the outside row of rivets when that blade was toward the bottom of the
    wiper board. I'd like to see a straight on pic when that blade is toward the bottom
    of the board..

    It is absolutely possible that I missed that stepf if you asked me to do it. Been a lot of testing going on and a lot of reading so there's definitely the potential that I missed checking out the alligator clip on player 2 score reel. I will definitely try that out when I get home this afternoon and see where that takes me.

    #402 4 years ago

    Okay I put the alligator clip on the 9th position switch in the second player 10-90 score real and started a 6 player game. First player got 40 points and the six player got 40 points everybody else got 50 points. The 100 did not engage until the 4th frame and it didn't do it on the 5th player. The 100 score reel never engaged in player 4 throughout the whole game. Also the Step Up unit I have been watching after every frame has not moved one time. Here is a pic of the unit in the beginning of the fifth frame. I am not sure if this has anything to do with anything however something doesn't seem right cuz it Doesn't move.

    20190827_142013 (resized).jpg20190827_142013 (resized).jpg20190827_142023 (resized).jpg20190827_142023 (resized).jpg
    #403 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Like I stated in the last post, I'd first skip the alligator clip and just try tapping the
    10-90 Relay 10 times while on Player 2 and see if the 100s reel rolls. Then I do the
    same with the other players (3,4,5,6th)

    Forgot to mention I tried tapping the 10-90 relay in player 2 mode prior to the alligator clip in previous post. The relay didn't engage the 100 reel so I tried the alligator clip.

    #404 4 years ago

    I started a 6 player game and tapped the 10-90 relay in each players frame and the 100 didn't roll over in any of the score reels.

    #406 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    So you tapped the 10 - 90 at least ten times, and not any of the 100s reel turned..
    First, recheck the switches in the Start Relay. I'm almost positive there's a set of switches
    that should be closed in the Start Relay when the Start Relay is in the reset position..
    Make sure their clean and making good contact..

    Yes tapped 10 times on the 10-90 relay and each time it rolled over it never engaged the 100 reel on any of the 6 players as I tried it on each one of the players. I will check the start relay when I get home and report back

    #408 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Okay, now it dawned on me that during reset, I believe the Player Unit resets first, then the reels reset so the
    Start Relay switch would only be in the 1st Player's circuitry. That is so when the reels are resetting, the 9th
    position switches don't interfer with the reels resetting process..
    Anyways, I'd have to say that it's in the Player Unit. One of the wiper blades are making a bad connection
    on the wiper board's rivet(s), a loose wire, and most likely not but possible, a loose wire on the backside of
    the wiper board. I'd first check and make sure that the wiper blades are all making good contact on the wiper board..

    Alright Tim I looked at the Players stepper unit it didn't look too whacked out I went ahead and adjusted it just a little bit first picture is before I adjusted it second pick is after I adjusted it

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    #409 4 years ago

    Also it's like clockwork the 4th frame it will always Engage The 100 reel just not in the first second or third. Also in the 6th frame it does not add the 100 and it doesn't add the right score period. The 7th frame adds the score correctly. The 8th frame adds the score correctly however the 1st extra shot frame of the 8th frame does not add correctly and neither does the 2nd extra shot. The 9th frame also isn't adding correctly. The 1st extra shot of 9th frame didnt add correctly but the 2nd extra shot added correctly then it gave me a third extra shot which it shouldn't have. Then it restarted me on the 9th frame again where it mis scored again. 10th frame it added the score correctly and added correctly on 1st extra frame and 2nd extra frame and rhen gave me another extra frame which i'm thinking isn't correct but gave me 2 more frames after that and scored correctly.
    I just thought I would post thewe observations in case someone else could maybe interpret this and diagnose it as something they have come across before.

    #411 4 years ago

    On each of the 1- 9 score reels did the machines anyone has rebuilt have that metal wire piece that is attached to the switch and rides in the groove of the score wheel? I only ask because when I took those apart when I was cleaning all my score reels when I went to put it back together I wasn't sure if it fit in the very first groove or in the middle Groove and I ended up putting them back in the first groove of that score wheel cam. I'm not sure that that's where they go oh and I was wondering if that is what could be causing my trouble with not engaging the 100 score reel

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    #412 4 years ago
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    #415 4 years ago
    Quoted from PM_Jeremy:

    Good pics of the wire. I believe that wire is there to make sure the hub that the score reel screws to is grounded to the plate of the score reel mech. From what I can see the hub is a sandwich of metal & fiber cams. The wire should go on the top grove closest to the screws.

    So not in the middle groove between the 2 fiber cams but above that one in between the metal and the fiber is this correct? If so that is the way I had it after reassembly.

    #417 4 years ago

    No updates till tues i've got some orher stuff that came up

    #419 4 years ago

    Well i'm back at it now went outta town with my wife for our 10yr anniversary. I was hoping I would come back and this thing would have magically fixed itself but thats not the case. Time to get back into this thing and get some positive results so here we go again. Bring on the helpful hints and tips everyone cause I need them.

    #420 4 years ago

    So I just finished cleaning every rollover playfield contact switch as those were the last ones I needed to get to so check that off the to-do list. I also just watched the scoring wiper arm go around the rivet board for a full game and am not seeing any arm touching a rivet from a different row. Not sure why it doesn't engage the 100 reel until the 4th frame but every game and every time in the 4th frame the score works perfect. Just for shits and giggles I sanded every contact switch in the 1-9 , the 10-90 and the 100 relay again just to be 100% certain one wasn't somehow still not making good contact. So thats where I am at this moment after getting back to it today.

    #421 4 years ago

    Only progress to report which i'm not really sure is progress at all but I have just been going over all switches double checking they have been sanded clean. Went over all of the score motor switches and the player relays in the backbox. Still the same symptoms with no changes. Was really hoping to come back to this thing refreshed and reenergized but finding myself right back where I left off... "Stuck"

    #424 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    I'm gutted for you man. Wish you had a local pair of eyes to help out.

    Me too...

    Quoted from Mopar:

    Wish you were fairly close. I'd stop by..

    Trust me I wish you were close by also

    #425 4 years ago

    Well boys i've never been a quitter and I never will be one. I promised my boy we would play this thing by Christmas and come hell or high water we will be playing this son of a bitch. I will look at that frame stepper tomorrow and the player stepper again and go over them closely.

    #426 4 years ago

    Well no update on my machine to post I went downstairs to start working on the machine walked in my unfinished section of basement to get into my beer fridge and apparently it died and all kinds of water and crap was all over the floor from the freezer so I've been cleaning this mess up. Willl be jumping back on it tomorrow with some updates to the machine and not a jacked up refrigerator at that point. It's always something!

    #427 4 years ago

    Ok so I have so unexpected house guests that popped in today but I managed to make some progress. The frame stepper appeared to be a bit off so I adjusted the bakelite board. And..... Hallelujah!! So it scored 30 points for a strike in 1st frame. (Happy dance time) 2nd frame it gave 60 points for a strike like it is supposed to and now has 90 points but it gave 1 point to player 6 (Really happy at this point). 3rd frame sitting at 90 points get a strike which should set points at 180. (Not happy now) The 100 point reel didn't roll over but the 80 points registered properly. It kept scoring properly just not engaging the 100 everytime and I had to get back to my house guests. So looks like its just the damn 100 score reel that I need to figure out. Man small victories feel pretty damn good.

    #429 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    I'm pretty sure you already checked both the Player and Frame Units wiper aliment, but carefully reinspect the
    wiper aliment on the Player Unit as you did on the Frame Unit. Being off would not only interfere with the 100s
    reel not flipping, but could also explain the 6th Player receiving that unexplained point..

    Yeah Tim that's a good idea I'm going to try to find a couple minutes when I get home this afternoon to do just that. The interesting thing was that I watched it as I stepped it up each time making contact on the different rivets and it wasn't until about the fourth or fifth where it was significantly off so I guess it's one of those deals where I'm going to have to walk it through each step up and check alignment all the way through its motion.

    #430 4 years ago

    I just had a few minutes to work on the machine I took the player up stepper off it was still off a little bit so I adjusted the Bakelite board again. The problem with the 100 score reel engaging is still there but other than carrying the 100 when it doesn't it kept perfect score throughout all 10 frames. The interesting thing is instead of the first or second frame of adding the 1point to player 6 that it now added the one point in the fifth frame. So does that mean that the frame Step Up unit still needs more adjustment?

    #432 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Of course I don't have the schematics, but I can't expect that the problem is in the Frame Unit.
    If it's score accurately (other than the 100s not flipping), I'd leave the Frame Unit where it is.
    I'd have to think that the 6th Player getting a point would be in the Player Unit.
    When this happens, is it happening only when the 1st Player is getting single points, or even
    when the 1st Player is getting 10-90 points.
    I'd maybe now would carefully inspect the wiper on the Player Unit while the Player Unit is
    in the 5th frame..

    Tim I was only scoring strikes using a stick to swipe all rollovers cause it was easier to add scores with the stated strike scores

    #433 4 years ago

    Im messing with the machine still having the same issues but did just notice something I hadn't really noticed before. When you are in the 3rd frame and you get a strike the score motor makes 2 revolutions for some reason. Pretty sure that is not correct.

    #435 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Only the 3rd frame?

    Yep its the only time it did that walki g through a whole game

    #436 4 years ago

    Another thing I noticed that doesn't particularly seem right is after complete game of 10 frames the frame stepper unit is not on the 10th rivet. I would have thought that's the way it worked but you can see in this picture where it ended up after a game. It resets to the yellow line and immediately jumps to the 1st rivet lighting up frame 1 on backglass. Then somehow it ends on the 12th rivet and need someone to weigh in on this to find out if thats right or wrong.

    20190908_135158 (resized).jpg20190908_135158 (resized).jpg
    #438 4 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Maybe since all strikes, 10th frame plus 2 is 12?

    But it's not giving me extra frames after the initial 10th frame it's ending after 1 try at the 10th.

    #440 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    The Frame Unit seems to working okay. Once it reaches the 12th step up, the Game Over
    Relay energizes. The problem in while getting a strike (or spare) in the 10th frame, the Extra Shot
    Relay isn't stepping up. That could be a set of switches in the Start Relay (probably a make/break
    switch) not making good contact, or a set of switches (probably a make break) in the 1-10 Relay
    not making good contact, or a set in the 10-90 Relay not making good contact when energized..
    So I'd carefully check the contacts in the Start Relay, the 1-10 Relay, and the 10-90 Relay..

    What about the score motor making 2 revolutions in the 3rd frame in that video I posted?

    #442 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Does it happen every time in the 3rd frame?
    The Bank Relay didn't reset during its first revolution,
    so it made another..

    It did it the 2 times I tested it after noticing it. So if bank relay didnt reset which is why it turns a 2nd time what are the steps to correct that motion?

    #443 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Does it happen every time in the 3rd frame?
    The Bank Relay didn't reset during its first revolution,
    so it made another..

    Just verified it and it always does the double motor rotation in the 3rd frame and it does it if you get a strike and also if you get a spare.

    #445 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Does it give the accurate score?
    I never had a Mercury or its schematics.
    With the Score Motor additional revolution, I'm a bit surprised
    it's not doubling up on the score, unless for some reason it's
    suppose to double up in the 3rd frame, but not a clue why unless
    it gives additional points for an open, but I would think an open
    score would be straight up the number of pins made.
    It only doubles up in the 3rd (?)

    No it does not give a doubled score it keeps the correct score other than not adding the 100 to the 100 score reel. It also does a double reset of the pins in conjunction with the double rotation of the score motor. I have searched high and low on the internet from pinball resource to every other place and nobody has a schematic for this machine. I would love to see how many of these machines were manufactured because I'm betting it wasn't very many since nobody anywhere seems to have any literature or documentation on this machine other than a sales flyer that I found on one website.

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