Quoted from PinDeLaPin:I missed checking out the alligator clip on player 2 score reel.
Like I stated in the last post, I'd first skip the alligator clip and just try tapping the
10-90 Relay 10 times while on Player 2 and see if the 100s reel rolls. Then I do the
same with the other players (3,4,5,6th)
Okay I put the alligator clip on the 9th position switch in the second player 10-90 score real and started a 6 player game. First player got 40 points and the six player got 40 points everybody else got 50 points. The 100 did not engage until the 4th frame and it didn't do it on the 5th player. The 100 score reel never engaged in player 4 throughout the whole game. Also the Step Up unit I have been watching after every frame has not moved one time. Here is a pic of the unit in the beginning of the fifth frame. I am not sure if this has anything to do with anything however something doesn't seem right cuz it Doesn't move.
20190827_142013 (resized).jpg20190827_142023 (resized).jpgQuoted from Mopar:Like I stated in the last post, I'd first skip the alligator clip and just try tapping the
10-90 Relay 10 times while on Player 2 and see if the 100s reel rolls. Then I do the
same with the other players (3,4,5,6th)
Forgot to mention I tried tapping the 10-90 relay in player 2 mode prior to the alligator clip in previous post. The relay didn't engage the 100 reel so I tried the alligator clip.
I started a 6 player game and tapped the 10-90 relay in each players frame and the 100 didn't roll over in any of the score reels.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:I started a 6 player game and tapped the 10-90 relay in each players frame and the 100 didn't roll over in any of the score reels.
So you tapped the 10 - 90 at least ten times, and not any of the 100s reel turned..
First, recheck the switches in the Start Relay. I'm almost positive there's a set of switches
that should be closed in the Start Relay when the Start Relay is in the reset position..
Make sure their clean and making good contact..
Quoted from Mopar:So you tapped the 10 - 90 at least ten times, and not any of the 100s reel turned..
First, recheck the switches in the Start Relay. I'm almost positive there's a set of switches
that should be closed in the Start Relay when the Start Relay is in the reset position..
Make sure their clean and making good contact..
Yes tapped 10 times on the 10-90 relay and each time it rolled over it never engaged the 100 reel on any of the 6 players as I tried it on each one of the players. I will check the start relay when I get home and report back
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:I will check the start relay when I get home and report back
Okay, now it dawned on me that during reset, I believe the Player Unit resets first, then the reels reset so the
Start Relay switch would only be in the 1st Player's circuitry. That is so when the reels are resetting, the 9th
position switches don't interfer with the reels resetting process..
Anyways, I'd have to say that it's in the Player Unit. One of the wiper blades are making a bad connection
on the wiper board's rivet(s), a loose wire, and most likely not but possible, a loose wire on the backside of
the wiper board. I'd first check and make sure that the wiper blades are all making good contact on the wiper board..
Quoted from Mopar:Okay, now it dawned on me that during reset, I believe the Player Unit resets first, then the reels reset so the
Start Relay switch would only be in the 1st Player's circuitry. That is so when the reels are resetting, the 9th
position switches don't interfer with the reels resetting process..
Anyways, I'd have to say that it's in the Player Unit. One of the wiper blades are making a bad connection
on the wiper board's rivet(s), a loose wire, and most likely not but possible, a loose wire on the backside of
the wiper board. I'd first check and make sure that the wiper blades are all making good contact on the wiper board..
Alright Tim I looked at the Players stepper unit it didn't look too whacked out I went ahead and adjusted it just a little bit first picture is before I adjusted it second pick is after I adjusted it
20190828_181419 (resized).jpg20190828_182141 (resized).jpgAlso it's like clockwork the 4th frame it will always Engage The 100 reel just not in the first second or third. Also in the 6th frame it does not add the 100 and it doesn't add the right score period. The 7th frame adds the score correctly. The 8th frame adds the score correctly however the 1st extra shot frame of the 8th frame does not add correctly and neither does the 2nd extra shot. The 9th frame also isn't adding correctly. The 1st extra shot of 9th frame didnt add correctly but the 2nd extra shot added correctly then it gave me a third extra shot which it shouldn't have. Then it restarted me on the 9th frame again where it mis scored again. 10th frame it added the score correctly and added correctly on 1st extra frame and 2nd extra frame and rhen gave me another extra frame which i'm thinking isn't correct but gave me 2 more frames after that and scored correctly.
I just thought I would post thewe observations in case someone else could maybe interpret this and diagnose it as something they have come across before.
Okay, I'd pick up a little on each wiper blade of both the Player and frame Unit to make sure
the blades have decent tension on their rivets.
We certainly may be going back to the score motor, but the 100s reel not rolling over seems
would be in the Players Unit (because it's happening to all 6 players 100s reel), and the scoring problem
could be in the Frame Unit..
On each of the 1- 9 score reels did the machines anyone has rebuilt have that metal wire piece that is attached to the switch and rides in the groove of the score wheel? I only ask because when I took those apart when I was cleaning all my score reels when I went to put it back together I wasn't sure if it fit in the very first groove or in the middle Groove and I ended up putting them back in the first groove of that score wheel cam. I'm not sure that that's where they go oh and I was wondering if that is what could be causing my trouble with not engaging the 100 score reel
20190829_023940 (resized).jpg20190829_024039 (resized).jpg20190829_024057 (resized).jpgGood pics of the wire. I believe that wire is there to make sure the hub that the score reel screws to is grounded to the plate of the score reel mech. From what I can see the hub is a sandwich of metal & fiber cams. The wire should go on the top grove closest to the screws.
Quoted from PM_Jeremy:Good pics of the wire. I believe that wire is there to make sure the hub that the score reel screws to is grounded to the plate of the score reel mech. From what I can see the hub is a sandwich of metal & fiber cams. The wire should go on the top grove closest to the screws.
So not in the middle groove between the 2 fiber cams but above that one in between the metal and the fiber is this correct? If so that is the way I had it after reassembly.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:So not in the middle groove between the 2 fiber cams but above that one in between the metal and the fiber is this correct? If so that is the way I had it after reassembly.
Yep! you have it correct.
Well i'm back at it now went outta town with my wife for our 10yr anniversary. I was hoping I would come back and this thing would have magically fixed itself but thats not the case. Time to get back into this thing and get some positive results so here we go again. Bring on the helpful hints and tips everyone cause I need them.
So I just finished cleaning every rollover playfield contact switch as those were the last ones I needed to get to so check that off the to-do list. I also just watched the scoring wiper arm go around the rivet board for a full game and am not seeing any arm touching a rivet from a different row. Not sure why it doesn't engage the 100 reel until the 4th frame but every game and every time in the 4th frame the score works perfect. Just for shits and giggles I sanded every contact switch in the 1-9 , the 10-90 and the 100 relay again just to be 100% certain one wasn't somehow still not making good contact. So thats where I am at this moment after getting back to it today.
Only progress to report which i'm not really sure is progress at all but I have just been going over all switches double checking they have been sanded clean. Went over all of the score motor switches and the player relays in the backbox. Still the same symptoms with no changes. Was really hoping to come back to this thing refreshed and reenergized but finding myself right back where I left off... "Stuck"
The 100s score reel circuitry during game play goes through the 10 - 90 Relay, the Player Step Up Unit,
and the 10s (- 90) 9th position score reel switch.
I never had a Mercury or its schematics, but maybe part of the scoring problem may be in the Frame Unit,
but not the 100s score reel not flipping (until the 4th frame)..
Wish you were fairly close. I'd stop by..
Perhaps there's an EM Guy that's also Has experience with bowlers in your era.
I'm sure you'll keep going on your own (or at least for awhile), but a shout out
on Craigs List (or wherever) may get positive results..
Doing some elagator clip jumping would probably help sort things out..
Quoted from RonSS:I'm gutted for you man. Wish you had a local pair of eyes to help out.
Me too...
Quoted from Mopar:Wish you were fairly close. I'd stop by..
Trust me I wish you were close by also
Well boys i've never been a quitter and I never will be one. I promised my boy we would play this thing by Christmas and come hell or high water we will be playing this son of a bitch. I will look at that frame stepper tomorrow and the player stepper again and go over them closely.
Well no update on my machine to post I went downstairs to start working on the machine walked in my unfinished section of basement to get into my beer fridge and apparently it died and all kinds of water and crap was all over the floor from the freezer so I've been cleaning this mess up. Willl be jumping back on it tomorrow with some updates to the machine and not a jacked up refrigerator at that point. It's always something!
Ok so I have so unexpected house guests that popped in today but I managed to make some progress. The frame stepper appeared to be a bit off so I adjusted the bakelite board. And..... Hallelujah!! So it scored 30 points for a strike in 1st frame. (Happy dance time) 2nd frame it gave 60 points for a strike like it is supposed to and now has 90 points but it gave 1 point to player 6 (Really happy at this point). 3rd frame sitting at 90 points get a strike which should set points at 180. (Not happy now) The 100 point reel didn't roll over but the 80 points registered properly. It kept scoring properly just not engaging the 100 everytime and I had to get back to my house guests. So looks like its just the damn 100 score reel that I need to figure out. Man small victories feel pretty damn good.
Quoted from Mopar:The 100s score reel circuitry during game play goes through the 10 - 90 Relay, the Player Step Up Unit,
and the 10s (- 90) 9th position score reel switch.
I'm pretty sure you already checked both the Player and Frame Units wiper aliment, but carefully reinspect the
wiper aliment on the Player Unit as you did on the Frame Unit. Being off would not only interfere with the 100s
reel not flipping, but could also explain the 6th Player receiving that unexplained point..
Quoted from Mopar:I'm pretty sure you already checked both the Player and Frame Units wiper aliment, but carefully reinspect the
wiper aliment on the Player Unit as you did on the Frame Unit. Being off would not only interfere with the 100s
reel not flipping, but could also explain the 6th Player receiving that unexplained point..
Yeah Tim that's a good idea I'm going to try to find a couple minutes when I get home this afternoon to do just that. The interesting thing was that I watched it as I stepped it up each time making contact on the different rivets and it wasn't until about the fourth or fifth where it was significantly off so I guess it's one of those deals where I'm going to have to walk it through each step up and check alignment all the way through its motion.
I just had a few minutes to work on the machine I took the player up stepper off it was still off a little bit so I adjusted the Bakelite board again. The problem with the 100 score reel engaging is still there but other than carrying the 100 when it doesn't it kept perfect score throughout all 10 frames. The interesting thing is instead of the first or second frame of adding the 1point to player 6 that it now added the one point in the fifth frame. So does that mean that the frame Step Up unit still needs more adjustment?
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:So does that mean that the frame Step Up unit still needs more adjustment?
Of course I don't have the schematics, but I can't expect that the problem is in the Frame Unit.
If it's score accurately (other than the 100s not flipping), I'd leave the Frame Unit where it is.
I'd have to think that the 6th Player getting a point would be in the Player Unit.
When this happens, is it happening only when the 1st Player is getting single points, or even
when the 1st Player is getting 10-90 points.
I'd maybe now would carefully inspect the wiper on the Player Unit while the Player Unit is
in the 5th frame..
Quoted from Mopar:Of course I don't have the schematics, but I can't expect that the problem is in the Frame Unit.
If it's score accurately (other than the 100s not flipping), I'd leave the Frame Unit where it is.
I'd have to think that the 6th Player getting a point would be in the Player Unit.
When this happens, is it happening only when the 1st Player is getting single points, or even
when the 1st Player is getting 10-90 points.
I'd maybe now would carefully inspect the wiper on the Player Unit while the Player Unit is
in the 5th frame..
Tim I was only scoring strikes using a stick to swipe all rollovers cause it was easier to add scores with the stated strike scores
Im messing with the machine still having the same issues but did just notice something I hadn't really noticed before. When you are in the 3rd frame and you get a strike the score motor makes 2 revolutions for some reason. Pretty sure that is not correct.
Quoted from RonSS:Only the 3rd frame?
Yep its the only time it did that walki g through a whole game
Another thing I noticed that doesn't particularly seem right is after complete game of 10 frames the frame stepper unit is not on the 10th rivet. I would have thought that's the way it worked but you can see in this picture where it ended up after a game. It resets to the yellow line and immediately jumps to the 1st rivet lighting up frame 1 on backglass. Then somehow it ends on the 12th rivet and need someone to weigh in on this to find out if thats right or wrong.
20190908_135158 (resized).jpgQuoted from RonSS:Maybe since all strikes, 10th frame plus 2 is 12?
But it's not giving me extra frames after the initial 10th frame it's ending after 1 try at the 10th.
The Frame Unit seems to working okay. Once it reaches the 12th step up, the Game Over
Relay energizes. The problem in while getting a strike (or spare) in the 10th frame, the Extra Shot
Relay isn't stepping up. That could be a set of switches in the Start Relay (probably a make/break
switch) not making good contact, or a set of switches (probably a make break) in the 1-10 Relay
not making good contact, or a set in the 10-90 Relay not making good contact when energized..
So I'd carefully check the contacts in the Start Relay, the 1-10 Relay, and the 10-90 Relay..
Quoted from Mopar:The Frame Unit seems to working okay. Once it reaches the 12th step up, the Game Over
Relay energizes. The problem in while getting a strike (or spare) in the 10th frame, the Extra Shot
Relay isn't stepping up. That could be a set of switches in the Start Relay (probably a make/break
switch) not making good contact, or a set of switches (probably a make break) in the 1-10 Relay
not making good contact, or a set in the 10-90 Relay not making good contact when energized..
So I'd carefully check the contacts in the Start Relay, the 1-10 Relay, and the 10-90 Relay..
What about the score motor making 2 revolutions in the 3rd frame in that video I posted?
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:What about the score motor making 2 revolutions in the 3rd frame in that video I posted?
Does it happen every time in the 3rd frame?
The Bank Relay didn't reset during its first revolution,
so it made another..
Quoted from Mopar:Does it happen every time in the 3rd frame?
The Bank Relay didn't reset during its first revolution,
so it made another..
It did it the 2 times I tested it after noticing it. So if bank relay didnt reset which is why it turns a 2nd time what are the steps to correct that motion?
Quoted from Mopar:Does it happen every time in the 3rd frame?
The Bank Relay didn't reset during its first revolution,
so it made another..
Just verified it and it always does the double motor rotation in the 3rd frame and it does it if you get a strike and also if you get a spare.
Does it give the accurate score?
I never had a Mercury or its schematics.
With the Score Motor additional revolution, I'm a bit surprised
it's not doubling up on the score, unless for some reason it's
suppose to double up in the 3rd frame, but not a clue why unless
it gives additional points for an open, but I would think an open
score would be straight up the number of pins made.
It only doubles up in the 3rd (?)
Quoted from Mopar:Does it give the accurate score?
I never had a Mercury or its schematics.
With the Score Motor additional revolution, I'm a bit surprised
it's not doubling up on the score, unless for some reason it's
suppose to double up in the 3rd frame, but not a clue why unless
it gives additional points for an open, but I would think an open
score would be straight up the number of pins made.
It only doubles up in the 3rd (?)
No it does not give a doubled score it keeps the correct score other than not adding the 100 to the 100 score reel. It also does a double reset of the pins in conjunction with the double rotation of the score motor. I have searched high and low on the internet from pinball resource to every other place and nobody has a schematic for this machine. I would love to see how many of these machines were manufactured because I'm betting it wasn't very many since nobody anywhere seems to have any literature or documentation on this machine other than a sales flyer that I found on one website.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:No it does not give a doubled score it keeps the correct score other than not adding the 100 to the 100 score reel. It also does a double reset of the pins in conjunction with the double rotation of the score motor. I have searched high and low on the internet from pinball resource to every other place and nobody has a schematic for this machine. I would love to see how many of these machines were manufactured because I'm betting it wasn't very many since nobody anywhere seems to have any literature or documentation on this machine other than a sales flyer that I found on one website.
Did you check with mike pacak?
Quoted from edward472:Did you check with mike pacak?
Yes I did and he also doesn't have one.
Quoted from edward472:Did you check with mike pacak?
20190909_181246 (resized).jpgQuoted from PinDeLaPin:[quoted image]
Darn. He has a massive library. You're probably right in thinking they didn't make a lot of them
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:Yes I did and he also doesn't have one.
Pretty rare for Mike not having one. He's like 90% on low production machines for me
that others didn't have..
Some Uniteds from the era of your machine has the Bank Relay Coil's circuitry going through
a (sometimes certain frame) Blow Relay so the score motor will cycle more than once
in order to add the pins that were made multiple (double, triple, ect.) times. That determines
on what frame it's on, but from looking at the backglass, I figured your machine didn't have
a Blow Relay. Other than that, the Bank Relay's coil energizes through the switch off of the
Score Motor's cam. And yes, it's understandable the pins would reset twice, but seems like it
would add the score twice also since the Bank hasn't reset the Relays made. Has to be something
more to it. The thing is, I work on many other EMs (especially come Winter) than bowlers, so even
if I once had a Mercury, I probably wouldn't remember 100% of its function..
I remember having a machine that had a 5th Frame Blow Relay, so I guess a 3rd Frame Relay
is possible, but not seeing a need for one on your machine. I'm afraid, without having the machine
at my presence, I'm not sure what's causing that. At least the score is registering accurately, so for now,
maybe you should go back to the 100s reel not flipping. If you had someone rather local that could
help out and do some jumping to locate where it's loosing that connection, that would probably be
a big plus, but for now, I'd recheck the wires on the Player Unit, and maybe even carefully checking on the
backside of its wiper board..
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