Quoted from EM-PINMAN:Power cords are never a 10 minute job when done the right way. Looks easy, basically easy, yet very time consuming. Nice work.
Thanks Ken. I should have known it wouldn't be a 10 minute job cause there's no such thing. Just glad it is done and that's one more thing checked off the list.
Quoted from Mopar:It scores 50 with all players?
Seems it would do it in other frames also,
but I'd still check the 10 - 90 relay.
It maybe could use a little stiffing up..
Ok Tim I decieed to try a 2 player game since all I have been doing is testing in 1 player mode. Right away I knew I had a problem as the 2nd dime didn't light up the 2 on the backglass. Then as soon as I played a frame it never went to player 2 and instead went to frame 2 of player 1.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:Ok Tim I decieed to try a 2 player game since all I have been doing is testing in 1 player mode. Right away I knew I had a problem as the 2nd dime didn't light up the 2 on the backglass. Then as soon as I played a frame it never went to player 2 and instead went to frame 2 of player 1.
I would check your Player Unit by hand. Does the stepper move freely advancing and resetting? If not you need to tear it apart and service it.
Quoted from EM-PINMAN:I would check your Player Unit by hand. Does the stepper move freely advancing and resetting? If not you need to tear it apart and service it.
All steppers have been 100% dissected and thoroughly cleaned. I even took the player stepper back apart yesterday to look for any loose or broken wires on the bakelite rivet board. The scoring is erratic at best because now on the 1st shot its scoring 40 points where it was scoring 50 points.
Check your "Player Reset Relay" for a switch not adjusted correctly, if you have one. Also if you have a "Reset Relay."
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:Ok Tim I decieed to try a 2 player game since all I have been doing is testing in 1 player mode. Right away I knew I had a problem as the 2nd dime didn't light up the 2 on the backglass.
On the Frame Unit there should be a make-break switch (that's 3 blades where the middle switch touches one
or the other outside switches). While on the 1st frame, the middle switch should touch one of the outside blades
which completes the circuit to the Coin Relay. You'll want to make certain those switches are making true
contact. Once on any other frame except the 1st Frame (2-10), the center blade should touch the other
outside contact which transfers the circuitry to the Start Relay..
Remember, never do all 3 blades make contact with each other. The center blade only touches one or the other
outside switches..
Quoted from EM-PINMAN:Check your "Player Reset Relay" for a switch not adjusted correctly, if you have one. Also if you have a "Reset Relay."
Thanks Ken I will investigate that lead today when I get home.
Quoted from Mopar:On the Frame Unit there should be a make-break switch (that's 3 blades where the middle switch touches one
or the other outside switches). While on the 1st frame, the middle switch should touch one of the outside blades
which completes the circuit to the Coin Relay. You'll want to make certain those switches are making true
contact. Once on any other frame except the 1st Frame (2-10), the center blade should touch the other
outside contact which transfers the circuitry to the Start Relay..
Remember, never do all 3 blades make contact with each other. The center blade only touches one or the other
outside switches..
Tim I am pretty certain I did this already but I will definitely double check this today.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:Tim I am pretty certain I did this already but I will definitely double check this today.
Once that make break switch makes while in the 1st Frame, the only other open switch
to complete the circuit to the Coin Step Up should be the coin switch..
Note: After putting in the first coin, you need to wait for the machine to reset before
putting in the 2nd coin so that the machine first has a chance to go to the 1st frame..
Quoted from Mopar:Once that make break switch makes while in the 1st Frame, the only other open switch
to complete the circuit to the Coin Step Up should be the coin switch..
Note: After putting in the first coin, you need to wait for the machine to reset before
putting in the 2nd coin so that the machine first has a chance to go to the 1st frame..
Ok Tim that's good to know cause i'm not sure if I waited for it to fully reset b4 dropping a 2nd dime. Will be pursuing these leads this afternoon and hopefully will have something positive to report.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:Ok Tim that's good to know cause i'm not sure if I waited for it to fully reset b4 dropping a 2nd dime. Will be pursuing these leads this afternoon and hopefully will have something positive to report.
Because it seemed you knew the 2nd Player light should be lit after dropping the 2nd dime,
I took it as the Coin Unit didn't step up to two Players, and I'm pretty sure that is the case,
but if by any chance it did step up but you hadn't realized the lights weren't working, then
as Ken said checking a closed set of contacts (when not energized) in the Player Reset Relay
is where I would first check next, but that's only if the Coin Relay actually did step up once, but
I have a pretty good idea that it hadn't..
Quoted from Mopar:Because it seemed you knew the 2nd Player light should be lit after dropping the 2nd dime,
I took it as the Coin Unit didn't step up to two Players, and I'm pretty sure that is the case,
but if by any chance it did step up but you hadn't realized the lights weren't working, then
as Ken said checking a closed set of contacts (when not energized) in the Player Reset Relay
is where I would first check next, but that's only if the Coin Relay actually did step up once, but
I have a pretty good idea that it hadn't..
Im getting ready to head down and mess around with here shortly. I knew it didn't add a 2nd player cause it never switched to a 2nd player and just went to the 2nd frame of player one.
Quoted from EM-PINMAN:Check your "Player Reset Relay" for a switch not adjusted correctly, if you have one. Also if you have a "Reset Relay."
Hey Ken here is the resting position of my player reset relay I do not have a reset relay. Looks right to me.
20190820_173507 (resized).jpgI dropped a dime and game started. I waited till all score reels were reset and dropped a dime for 2nd player and the player unit never stepped up.
Heres what I have. 1st dime dropped lock relay engages and stays locked on, coin relay engages and releases, player reset relay engages and hold while score motor rest then releases. The player stepper id definitely not stepping up. I took the fingers loose and wiped a little more super lube on it to make sure it was mo ing freely and it was but after trying again it still wouldn't step up.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:I dropped a dime and game started. I waited till all score reels were reset and dropped a dime for 2nd player and the player unit never stepped up.
After the 2nd dime is dropped in, the Player Unit isn't suppose step up. The Coin Step Up Unit is suppose to step up.
That's what you want to check out, if the Coin Unit stepped up one step from its reset position after the 2nd coin has been
dropped in..
Quoted from Mopar:After the 2nd dime is dropped in, the Player Unit isn't suppose step up. The Coin Step Up Unit is suppose to step up.
That's what you want to check out, if the Coin Unit stepped up one step from its reset position after the 2nd coin has been
dropped in..
Ahhh I thought the player unit was the one that stepped up. I will have to check if the coin stepper is moving later today.
On some shuffles, the 1st Player, 2nd player, 3rd Player, ect. will light to show how many players are playing.
That's what I first thought you were talking about, but after taking another look at the backglass,
your machine has the common United's 1,2,3,4,5,6 numbers to show the amount of players playing..
Right after start up, the number 1 should be lit for the amount of Players. The 2nd dime should step up
the Coin Step Up Unit, and then show 2 for the amount of Players.
Right after start up, you can manually step up the Coin Unit to make sure the bulbs for the amount of
Players are okay and that they light..
Quoted from Mopar:On some shuffles, the 1st Player, 2nd player, 3rd Player, ect. will light to show how many players are playing.
That's what I first thought you were talking about, but after taking another look at the backglass,
your machine has the common United's 1,2,3,4,5,6 numbers to show the amount of players playing..
Right after start up, the number 1 should be lit for the amount of Players. The 2nd dime should step up
the Coin Step Up Unit, and then show 2 for the amount of Players.
Right after start up, you can manually step up the Coin Unit to make sure the bulbs for the amount of
Players are okay and that they light..
I can tell you that when I manually engaged the coin relay the machine still did not show two players. On top of not showing two players on the back class it also did not switch to a second player after the first players turn.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:it also did not switch to a second player after the first players turn.
Yes, that adds up, but when you step up the "Coin Step Up Unit" (probably in the head), does it show 2 Players?
Okay so after further inspection the coin Step Up unit is not stepping up when a second coin is dropped. However if I move it manually second player light does light up and second player does work. However interestingly enough I am having the exact same problem with the scoring reel not scoring hundreds and erratic scoring on two player as I am on the one player. Also it's still scores 1 point in 2 player mode to player 6 even in two player mode after the first frame.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:the coin Step Up unit is not stepping up when a second coin is dropped.
Okay, so it's obvious that the Coin Relay energizes when the first coin is dropped in. I would have to assume that it also
energizes when the 2nd coin is dropped in , but nothing at that point happens, right?
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:However interestingly enough I am having the exact same problem with the scoring reel not scoring hundreds and erratic scoring on two player as I am on the one player.
Are you certain that the Player Unit's wiper isn't 180 degrees off. Are there colored lines (red, yellow (?)) that line up with the wiper
with its board when the Unit is in the reset position?
Quoted from Mopar:Okay, so it's obvious that the Coin Relay energizes when the first coin is dropped in. I would have to assume that it also
energizes when the 2nd coin is dropped in , but nothing at that point happens, right?If I drop a 2nd coin the game resets and score reels do a full reset but stays at 1 player.
Are you certain that the Player Unit's wiper isn't 180 degrees off. Are there colored lines (red, yellow (?)) that line up with the wiper
with its board when the Unit is in the reset position?
Player unit has the yellow line and it is resetting. Heres the player stepper reset to zero.
20190821_173356 (resized).jpg
Quoted from Mopar:Okay, so it's obvious that the Coin Relay energizes when the first coin is dropped in. I would have to assume that it also
energizes when the 2nd coin is dropped in , but nothing at that point happens, right?
When 2nd coin is dropped the score reels start resetting like when you drop the 1st coin and then its back to player 1 only.
Quoted from Mopar:On the Frame Unit there should be a make-break switch (that's 3 blades where the middle switch touches one
or the other outside switches). While on the 1st frame, the middle switch should touch one of the outside blades
which completes the circuit to the Coin Relay. You'll want to make certain those switches are making true
contact. Once on any other frame except the 1st Frame (2-10), the center blade should touch the other
outside contact which transfers the circuitry to the Start Relay..
Remember, never do all 3 blades make contact with each other. The center blade only touches one or the other
outside switches..
Even without the 100% give away clue that the machine reset with the 2nd coin as it did with the 1st, it sounds
like the issue is what I first had suggested..
On the Frame Unit, on the opposite side of the wiper, I very much expect there's 3 make/break switches that
I had mentioned before. it sounds as if they are not adjusted like stated above. As if the switch that shouldn't be making
contact until the machine is in the 2nd frame, is making in the 1st frame. Seems it needs adjustment.
If any questions, perhaps you can send a pic of those 3 switches while the machine is in the 1st frame..
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:Here it is with a dime dropped and a game started.
Okay, at start up, I have to think that the center blade should be touching the blade on the right
(not the left one as it is). Then once in the 2nd frame, it should let go of the one on the right, and
touch the one on the left and the center blade should stay on the left one all the way through the
rest of the game..
You can check the labels out also. They look to still be readable..
Tim am I misunderstanding your description or do the pics look correct to you? It seems to my untrained eye that they are doing as they are supposed to but your insight is most definitely appreciated.
When the stepper is reset the cam returns to zero and the little arm pushes the center switch against the switch on the right closing it. As it then steps up it then breaks the switch connection on the right and then connects to the switch on the left. I just want to be clear that this is the correct operation that you are describing is this correct?
Bill, this is what you need to check..
When the Frame Unit is on the 1st Frame, center blade should be touching
the blade on the right. Once on the 2nd frame, the center switch should let go of the
switch on the right, and touch the switch on the left.
So after a dime is put in, it's on the 1st Frame and the center blade should be touching
the blade on the right. Then once it's stepped up one time and on the 2nd Frame, the
center blade should let go of the right blade, and touch the left blade..
Note: At total reset, the center blade will be touching the blade on the right which is
fine, but it still needs to be touching the right blade when it's on the 1st Frame..
Quoted from Mopar:Bill, this is what you need to check..
When the Frame Unit is on the 1st Frame, center blade should be touching
the blade on the right. Once on the 2nd frame, the center switch should let go of the
switch on the right, and touch the switch on the left.
So after a dime is put in, it's on the 1st Frame and the center blade should be touching
the blade on the right. Then once it's stepped up one time and on the 2nd Frame, the
center blade should let go of the right blade, and touch the left blade..
Note: At total reset, the center blade will be touching the blade on the right which is
fine, but it still needs to be touching the right blade when it's on the 1st Frame..
I am almost 100% positive that this is exactly what it is doing but I will absolutely double-check this process as soon as I get home today.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:I am almost 100% positive that this is exactly what it is doing
In the pic when it's in the start up position (1st Frame), it's off. The center switch should still be touching the blade on the right,
not the left one..
Quoted from Mopar:In the pic when it's in the start up position (1st Frame), it's off. The center switch should still be touching the blade on the right,
not the left one..
Ok Tim so here is what is going on now. This pic is after a coin is dropped in frame number 1. The center switch has seperated from the switch on the right and is now making contact with the switch on the left. After re-reading your prior post it seems this is wrong and should still be making contact with the switch on the right until the 1st frame is complete and it steps up to the 2nd frame where then it should make contact with the left switch?
Okay so I adjusted that switch and have it to where it doesn't make contact with the left switch until it steps up from frame 1 to frame 2. Game starts fine in 1 player mode but i'm still confused with this scoring.
If we are saying that the points you get are what is on the backglass above that frames number then why am I still getting 50 points for frame 1 with a strike when that backglass says 30? If I get a spare interestingly enough it scores 20 points like the bachglass states for a spare.
Also it is still not engaging the 100 reel until the 4th frame and that is every single time. Nxt thing is that it is either frame 1 or frame 2 but either way it is still giving 1 point in either of those frames to player 6.
In the 6th frame it never adds the correct amount and always leaves the hundred reel out.
The 7th frame scored correctly and went through the extra shots frame but after that it restarted the 7th frame again.
The 8th frame once again didn't register the 100 reel on first strike. On 1st extra frame shot of same frame a spare score registered correctly. In 2nd extra ftame of same frame a strike didn't engage the 100 reel.
The 9th frame a strike scored properly.
The 10 frame a strike recorded properly but no extra shots were awarded for a strike
Wow, that's a lot going on. Lets first start where we left off.
Now, you have it so in the 1st frame, the center contact is still touching the right contact.
Now, after putting in a 2nd coin (while the machine is in the 1st frame, does it register
2 Players? If so, does the 2nd Player score the same as the 1st Player. 50 points for a strike?
Yes a lot going on I know but those were all the observations I kept seeing and didn't document and as I was going through this time I just wanted to document everything so we knew what was really going on here. Good news is that yes now if I start a game wait till the score reels are done resetting drop another dime player two lights up on the number of players and the game does not reset.
Okay so interestingly enough I put it in two player mode got a strike on player one and a strike on player 2 and it' scored 40 points this time for each one of them. Still erratic scoring throughout the course of the game. However it is switching between players just as it should so thats a plus.
At start up, if you manually tap the 1 - 9 Relay fairly rapidly, every 10th tap,
does the 10 - 90 Relay energize only one time?
So after 20 taps, does the score register 200?
Quoted from RonSS:Yes! Progress!
So if the tapping is accurate, I'd like to see a pic of the score motor's wiper and wiper board..
Quoted from Mopar:At start up, if you manually tap the 1 - 9 Relay fairly rapidly, every 10th tap,
does the 10 - 90 Relay energize only one time?
So after 20 taps, does the score register 200?
So i started a game. Tapped the 1-9 relay 10 times and the 10-90 relay engaged on the 10th tap. 3 of the legs of the 10-99 sparked but nothing happened after 20 taps the score reel registered 20. 1st pic is just a reference pic. Its mighty damn tuff to get a pic of those switches engaged.
20190822_165215 (resized).jpg20190822_165234 (resized).jpgOn the 10 - 90 Relay, that last set of contacts on the right look to be maybe a little close together.
Perhaps the very last contact on the right could be adjusted to the right just a little bit so that it has
a bit more gap..
Also, in the straight on pic of the score motor's wiper board, the blade on the right that rides on the center
row of rivets may be a little bit toward the outside, and perhaps it occasionally may be nicking a rivet
of the 2nd outside row. It looks as if you haven't much more adjustment room, but maybe you can
loosen the wiper screw and pull the wiper out just a bit so that that blade comes inside a bit.
If it is nicking a rivet(s) on the 2nd outside row during its revolution, it may be the thing that is adding
and extra 10 or 20 points to the score..
Quoted from Mopar:On the 10 - 90 Relay, that last set of contacts on the right look to be maybe a little close together.
Perhaps the very last contact on the right could be adjusted to the right just a little bit so that it has
a bit more gap..
Also, in the straight on pic of the score motor's wiper board, the blade on the right that rides on the center
row of rivets may be a little bit toward the outside, and perhaps it occasionally may be nicking a rivet
of the 2nd outside row. It looks as if you haven't much more adjustment room, but maybe you can
loosen the wiper screw and pull the wiper out just a bit so that that blade comes inside a bit.
If it is nicking a rivet(s) on the 2nd outside row during its revolution, it may be the thing that is adding
and extra 10 or 20 points to the score..
Ok Tim I will have to try that when I get home tomorrow it's bedtime here and time to put the kiddos to bed. If anything else comes to mind just post it and I will try it tomorrow also.
Quoted from PM_Jeremy:Good progress!
Thanks Jeremy, it has been a challenge up to this point to say the least. Maybe after I finally graduate from this project I will be ready to take on a big ball bowler project 
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