(Topic ID: 246595)

Need help with a United deluxe Mercury shuffle alley


By PinDeLaPin

47 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 320 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 16 minutes ago by Mopar
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    There are 320 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 7.
    #251 11 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    You hadn't cleaned the player unit's board with steel wool, had you?
    If so, I'd redo it with scotch brite. If not, there may be an unknown
    connection on the backside if the wiper board..

    No steel wool on the stepper boards. Only on a couple of switches in the relay stack.

    #252 10 days ago

    Well not sure what happened but i sanded and then cleaned every single switch in the switch bank. Thinking I had just scored some big points with the mechanics of the game only to power it on and be confused. Drop a dime and start a game and roll 1 works fine and trips 1st shot relay. Roll 2 comes up and rollover switches also respond and then 2nd shit relay trips and score motor runs. However, now no points are registering on the score reels, except 1 point on player 6. Anyone have any insight here as I am thoroughly confused here. I even went back and looked at ever switch to make sure they were making contact when they should and weren't when they shouldn't.

    #253 10 days ago

    Maybe try to activate only 1 rollover per frame?

    Ex: "roll" the #7 pin on both pucks.

    Continue with different pins each frame.

    You may be able to isolate that 6th reel issue.

    #254 9 days ago

    I've got the machine registering the scores again on the score reels. Apparently when I was cleaning all those contacts I must have bent one and it wasn't making contact. I found it today when double checking all those contact and blowing them all out with compressed air.
    Also I have verified that the point that is registering to player 6 always happens on the 2nd frame. I played 3 games and knocked down all pins for a strike so it registered the 1 point and no more the rest of the game.
    Also i'm still having issues with the 100 score reel on player 1 not engaging the first time around. I also think it skips at least 1 more time throughout the course of a game. I guess I will have to sit there and manually figure the score after each frame to verify if there is a pattern to it skipping.

    #255 9 days ago

    You're making good progress

    #256 9 days ago
    Quoted from cad-kid:

    You're making good progress

    Thanks Jeremy I sure as hell am trying but these little oddball problems are whats holding me up now. I've been on the pinwiki site a bit trying to track down the score reel issue since it is actually 2 issues pertaining to the same piece of hardware but theres nothing relating to my problem. Since I know that the 2nd frame is where the 6th player is getting that 1 point added i'm thinking I need to triple check the frame stepper again? Not at all sure what to do with the score reel issues as I have taken them back out and apart to double check my initial cleaning job. Hoping someone can weigh in with some more insight on where to go next to solve these last few problems.

    #257 8 days ago

    So i've double checked the score wheel switches again and they all seem to be correct. No changes and still all the same problems exist. Does anyone have any insight on where to go next?

    #258 8 days ago

    Wish I did. I'm new to this game too.

    #259 8 days ago

    Just noticed another observation that doesn't seem right to me. Game is over. If I phusically engage the 1st and 2nd player reset relay in the backbox it will pull all score reels in player 1 except the 100 unit.
    If I engage the 3rd and 4th player reset relay nothing at all happens.
    If I engage the 5th and 6th player reset relay only the 1-9 score reel engages pn player 6.
    What the hell is going on here?

    #260 8 days ago

    Your machine is clearly haunted.

    #261 8 days ago

    Tell me bout it. Just seems like I can't get over rhe damn hump. I did notice that when i manually pulse those relays they only turn until they make it to the reset position. Still not sure if this process is correct though?

    #262 8 days ago

    I found a good United service manual here: http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-arcade/United%201954%20TEAM%20SHUFFLE%20%20Service%20Manual.pdf

    It's not exact for your machine but it does a great job at explaining what each mechanical unit does and what the function of each relay is. This can be very helpful in troubleshooting

    There are some other manuals here https://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals/manuals_em_arcade.php

    #263 7 days ago
    Quoted from cad-kid:

    I found a good United service manual here: http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-arcade/United%201954%20TEAM%20SHUFFLE%20%20Service%20Manual.pdf
    It's not exact for your machine but it does a great job at explaining what each mechanical unit does and what the function of each relay is. This can be very helpful in troubleshooting
    There are some other manuals here https://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals/manuals_em_arcade.php

    This Player stepper unit sounds like it pertains to my issue of scoring points to player 6. Pretty sure I have already looked at this but I will definitely revisit it. Still not seeing anything about my score reel issue though.

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    #264 7 days ago

    Well I pulled the player stepper back out and looked it over to see if it was potentially misaligned. Turned out it wasn't so I looked at all the rest while I was in detective mode. The Frame stepoer was a bit off so I pulled the finger thingy off and loosened the bakelite and adjusted it. Again no change. So here I still sit with the same damn problems.

    #265 7 days ago
    Quoted from cad-kid:

    I found a good United service manual here: http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-arcade/United%201954%20TEAM%20SHUFFLE%20%20Service%20Manual.pdf
    It's not exact for your machine but it does a great job at explaining what each mechanical unit does and what the function of each relay is. This can be very helpful in troubleshooting
    There are some other manuals here https://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals/manuals_em_arcade.php

    Jeremy I printed it out and have been over it probably 5 or 6 times. I was thinking or actually hoping it was just a misaligned stepper but that isn't the case. I wiggled every wire on each stepper to see if I potentially had a bad solder joint but found none of those either. Unclear how to proceed with tracking this down.

    #266 7 days ago

    Not the same game obviously but same year and very similar.

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    #267 5 days ago

    Day off?

    #268 5 days ago

    No idea what i'm supposed to do at this point

    #269 5 days ago

    Got an EM guy near you?

    #270 5 days ago

    Yep but he hasn't responded to my last 2 requests

    #271 5 days ago

    If there's anything you haven't yet gone through, I'd go through..
    That actually should be done right from the get-go..
    I'm sure you made sure all the pluggins are clean..

    #272 5 days ago

    I've done what the pinrepair site suggested. I've done what Mopar suggested. I've even bought 4 of the TOP videos hoping for some insight. I've reached out and sent pm's to multiple users most of which haven't even responded. Pretty much just aggravated with it at this point.

    #273 5 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    If there's anything you haven't yet gone through, I'd go through..
    That actually should be done right from the get-go..
    I'm sure you made sure all the pluggins are clean..

    Tim thank you for all your guidance and assistance up until this point. All plug-ins have been cleaned. All contacts with the exception of the rollover switches on the playfield have been cleaned. The only things left to remedy are the 100 scoring reel and player 6 scoring 1 point in 2nd frame only. I have taken out the 1-9, 10-90 and the 100 score reels in player 1 and re sanded the switch contacts just to make sure they were clean. I also took out the 1-9 score reel in player 6 to make sure it was all clean and working properly. I have gone back through and made sure all the fingers were 100% properly aligned with the buttons on the bakelite boards of all the steppers. All bakelite boards on the steppers have had a light layer of superlube applied to each of them. I have also checked each and every wire going to every contact on each stepper unit to make sure there were no bad cold solder joints. Whatever I have been told to check, clean or rebuild has been done. With all that has been done I gerl whatever it is that's holding me back has to be trivial. There is no way it can be some big complicated problem.

    #274 5 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    player 6 scoring 1 point in 2nd frame only.

    If it only happens in the 2nd frame then I would recheck the 2nd frame relay for a switch that is possibly gaped too close and being set off by vibrations.

    #275 5 days ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    If it only happens in the 2nd frame then I would recheck the 2nd frame relay for a switch that is possibly gaped too close and being set off by vibrations.

    Will definitely check that tomorrow. Thanks for the tip Ken.

    #276 5 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    The only things left to remedy are the 100 scoring reel and player 6 scoring 1 point in 2nd frame only.

    Okay, is it one of the reels in the 1st Player that isn't resetting at start up?
    If so, with all the reels on the 1st and 2nd Players on any number but zero, with the machine
    on, but before start up, you can take a small screwdriver and slip it in between the contacts of
    the 1st and 2nd Player Reset Relay and find out which set of switches triggers each reel of the
    1st and 2nd Players. When you locate the set that doesn't trigger any of the reels in the 1st and
    2nd Players, that's the set that will have to be addressed..
    Once you're at that point, we'll take other steps..
    If you don't find it before, we can address the 6th Player's 1 point in the 2nd Frame later..

    #277 5 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Okay, is it one of the reels in the 1st Player that isn't resetting at start up?
    If so, with all the reels on the 1st and 2nd Players on any number but zero, with the machine
    on, but before start up, you can take a small screwdriver and slip it in between the contacts of
    the 1st and 2nd Player Reset Relay and find out which set of switches triggers each reel of the
    1st and 2nd Players. When you locate the set that doesn't trigger any of the reels in the 1st and
    2nd Players, that's the set that will have to be addressed..
    Once you're at that point, we'll take other steps..
    If you don't find it before, we can address the 6th Player's 1 point in the 2nd Frame later..

    Tim, the problem isn't that the score reel doesn't reset at start up. The problem is that it isn't registering when it should so the scoring isn't accurate. For example if I knock down 3 strikes that gives me 90 points which registers fine on score reels. Then on 4th shot if I knock down a strike instead of it scoring 120 points, only the 20 scores and the 100 is lost because it doesn't register. So now you are in the 4th frame with only 20 points. It will take 2 or 3 more strikes to then make the 100 reel start to engage but at that point the scoring is way out of wack. The 1000 reel works just fine with no problems its just that 100 reel.

    #278 5 days ago

    You can close the 9th position switch in the 10's score reel with an elegator clip
    then that score reel should energize each time the 10-90 Score relay is manually
    triggered. That way you don't have to wait for the 10s Score Reel to be on 90.
    If it works every time, then I'd re-inspect the 9th position switch in the 10's Score
    Reel. If there's still problems, then I'd activate the 10-90 Score Relay while separately
    lifting each blade off of the Player Unit and find which blade the circuitry travels through
    and then inspect that rivet (backside also) that that blade is on..

    #279 5 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    You can close the 9th position switch in the 10's score reel with an elegator clip
    then that score reel should energize each time the 10-90 Score relay is manually
    triggered. That way you don't have to wait for the 10s Score Reel to be on 90.
    If it works every time, then I'd re-inspect the 9th position switch in the 10's Score
    Reel. If there's still problems, then I'd activate the 10-90 Score Relay while separately
    lifting each blade off of the Player Unit and find which blade the circuitry travels through
    and then inspect that rivet (backside also) that that blade is on..

    Thank you Tim I will pursue this lead later today and report back my findings.

    #280 4 days ago

    Only had a couple minutes to mess with it tonight I forgot kiddos have a function at school tonight. Have a function tomorrow evening as well so will hopefully get a chance to mess with b4 then but definitely on sunday.

    #281 3 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    You can close the 9th position switch in the 10's score reel with an elegator clip
    then that score reel should energize each time the 10-90 Score relay is manually
    triggered. That way you don't have to wait for the 10s Score Reel to be on 90.
    If it works every time, then I'd re-inspect the 9th position switch in the 10's Score
    Reel. If there's still problems, then I'd activate the 10-90 Score Relay while separately
    lifting each blade off of the Player Unit and find which blade the circuitry travels through
    and then inspect that rivet (backside also) that that blade is on..

    Ok Tim just had a little time this morning to mess with it. I put an alligator clip closing the 9 position switch in the 10 score reel on player 1. I seem to be getting erratic behavior now though along with the original problems. Now it's registering the 1 point to player 6 after the 1st frame. Also the 100 reel engaged in the 3rd frame but did not engage again the nxt time it should have. Also for some reason the 5 pin has started acting funny and not retracting up into the head but is registering in strikes and spares.
    Thats all for now more to come later.

    #282 3 days ago

    Good to see you back!

    #283 3 days ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Good to see you back!

    Yeah crazy, school started this week and no tume to do anything. Gonna mess with it today some and hopefully make some kind of progress.

    #284 3 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    Also the 100 reel engaged in the 3rd frame but did not engage again the nxt time it should have.

    What you can try is taking the Player Unit wiper off, and with a channel locks/vise grips, squeezing its
    center hub to make sure that it's tight together. You can also check it's blades for continuity on the blades
    that are together where continuity should be. You can do the same with the Frame Unit wiper, although
    most likely it's not in the frame Unit..

    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    Also for some reason the 5 pin has started acting funny and not retracting up into the head

    The issue here is most likely the 5 pin unit switch is not making good contact when the 5 pin is down, or a set of switches
    in the 5 Pin Relay isn't making good contact when the 5 Pin Relay is in the energized position..

    #285 2 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    What you can try is taking the Player Unit wiper off, and with a channel locks/vise grips, squeezing its
    center hub to make sure that it's tight together. You can also check it's blades for continuity on the blades
    that are together where continuity should be. You can do the same with the Frame Unit wiper, although
    most likely it's not in the frame Unit..

    The issue here is most likely the 5 pin unit switch is not making good contact when the 5 pin is down, or a set of switches
    in the 5 Pin Relay isn't making good contact when the 5 Pin Relay is in the energized position..

    Down here messing with this for a few minutes. I took the whole player stepper unit loose, took the finger unit off and then took the bakelite board loose. Checked for any loose wires or cracked solder joints found none. Put it back together and started a game. The game is scoring incorrectly right from the start. For a strike it is scoring 50 points when it should be 30 and then out of generosity it gives player 6 the 1 point in frame 1. The hundred reel is still messing up as well and now I noticed something else thats not right. Frame 7 started I knocked all pins for strike and it awarded 210 points. The extra shots frames lit up and I knocked strikes each time it awarded 210 points. After the extra shots frames it should have advanced to the 8th frame but it stayed in the 7th frame and made me shoot it again after that it advanced to the 8th frame. It then went through the nxt 2 frames and game over. Just so I am 100% clear here as to how this is supposed to be scoring, no matter what a strike is worth 30 and a spare is worth 20 right? Or am I supposed to score the amount above the frame number on the backglass because it is scoring the amounts on the backglass sometimes. Frame 1 it scored 50 points and the backglass says 30??? This thing has me all kinds of confused at this point.

    #286 2 days ago

    Forgot the pics to above post

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    #287 2 days ago

    Yes, pretty certain you do not have regulation scoring.

    This is how they used to keep score on these machines.

    #288 2 days ago

    United changed to regulation scoring in 1955.

    #289 2 days ago

    On your machine, United stepped it up a couple notches with its scoring.
    In the 7th, it is suppose to give 210 (as the backglass indicates) for a strike.
    On most shuffles, the extra shots is or the 10th frame, but your machine
    states Extra Shots Frames, so I can't say what Frames those would be.
    Perhaps there's a setting in the head (maybe the coffin) where frames can
    be set for extra shots after making a strike(s)..
    I'm not certain why it scored 50 points in the 1st frame for a strike.
    I could be that the 10 - 90 Relay is a bit flimsy and vibrating while energizing
    making the contacts trigger additional times.
    You can stiffin' it up by twisting the longer blades so that it has a bit more
    resistance to energize, but of course is yet able to make its travel when energized..

    #290 2 days ago

    Okay then just so I am clear the number of points that is associated with the frame number on the back glass is then the number you should get for a score and NOT 30 as the playfield states if you get a strike right? Because it's weird that the scores incease by 30 points each frame on the backglass. The playfield stating the 30/20 is what was leading me to believe that it was only 30 points per strike per frame.

    #291 2 days ago

    There's no question. The scoring is what is indicate on the backglass
    for each frame..
    It looks as if United just continued to use their standard lane from
    that era than to construct one specifically for the Mercury, or at least
    for the Mercury you have (maybe left over lanes)..
    The one point givin' to the 6th player seems would be in the
    Player Unit (?), but more importantly (for now) is that the basic
    accurate scoring gets worked out..

    #292 2 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    There's no question. The scoring is what is indicate on the backglass
    for each frame..
    It looks as if United just continued to use their standard lane from
    that era than to construct one specifically for the Mercury, or at least
    for the Mercury you have (maybe left over lanes)..
    The one point givin' to the 6th player seems would be in the
    Player Unit (?), but more importantly (for now) is that the basic
    accurate scoring gets worked out..

    Yes I agree I just want the scoring to work 100% so I can build in moving forward from that. Any idea what would cause it to start out with 50 points then instead of the 30 thats listed on the backglass?

    #293 2 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    Any idea what would cause it to start out with 50 points then instead of the 30 thats listed on the backglass?

    It scores 50 with all players?
    Seems it would do it in other frames also,
    but I'd still check the 10 - 90 relay.
    It maybe could use a little stiffing up..

    #294 2 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    It scores 50 with all players?
    Seems it would do it in other frames also,
    but I'd still check the 10 - 90 relay.
    It maybe could use a little stiffing up..

    Not sure about multiple players scoring 50 pts in 1st frame as I have only been testing it in single player mode. I messed with 10-90 relay made sure all switches were hitting and making good contact.

    #295 2 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Perhaps there's a setting in the head (maybe the coffin) where frames can
    be set for extra shots after making a strike(s)..

    I only found these 3 plugs in the nackbox that allow you to move the wires to a different set of contacts but none say anything bout frame adjustment.

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    #296 2 days ago

    Maybe look for a "dial" that you'd stick a screwdriver in to adjust.

    #297 1 day ago

    Well no changes to functionality to report but I did finish up replacing the power cord today. Was definitely something that needed to be done as the old one was seriously sketchy.

    20190819_142814 (resized).jpg
    #298 1 day ago

    Nice work!

    Looks as though you and I were on the same page today, but you finished!

    #299 1 day ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Nice work!
    Looks as though you and I were on the same page today, but you finished!

    I thought it would just be done in a few minutes but it turned out to be a major pain in the ass. There was very little give on that little plate that the fuse's mount too and it was hard as hell to get my soldering iron in there and also on the secondary outlet that the white wire went to it was the same story on that. A little 10-minute job turned into 2 hours but hey at least it's done now and it works that's all I'm concerned about

    #300 1 day ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    I thought it would just be done in a few minutes but it turned out to be a major pain in the ass. There was very little give on that little plate that the fuse's mount too and it was hard as hell to get my soldering iron in there and also on the secondary outlet that the white wire went to it was the same story on that. A little 10-minute job turned into 2 hours but hey at least it's done now and it works that's all I'm concerned about

    Power cords are never a 10 minute job when done the right way. Looks easy, basically easy, yet very time consuming. Nice work.

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