Do you have a high power soldering gun?
(Topic ID: 246595)
Do you have your head off the machine?
For the upper score reels (the 1 - 4 Players) I set the head on a chair
as I'm in a chair working on them, and for the 5th and 6th Players, along
with the three Step-Up-Units, I set the head on a table..
I myself never cut wires. If done properly, seldom does one have to be
done again..
Quoted from Mopar:Do you have your head off the machine?
For the upper score reels (the 1 - 4 Players) I set the head on a chair
as I'm in a chair working on them, and for the 5th and 6th Players, along
with the three Step-Up-Units, I set the head on a table..
I myself never cut wires. If done properly, seldom does one have to be
done again..
The head is still mounted onto the machine. I only have the 2 more reels on player 2 which are the highest. The middle and bottom reels should be much easier to access.
Ok so finished up all scoring reels in player 1 and 2 tonight. I turned it on and dropped a dime just to mess with the switches and see if things were working as they should. I was just using my hand to depress switches not sliding a puck. So of course craos messed uo why wouldn't it be right?
1st of all if you knock all pins down it's supposed to give 30 points but is giving 40 on player 1 and player 2.
2nd thing is you drop a dime and 2 players lights up and it starts on player 2.
3rd thing.. who the hell cares the 1st 2 things are jacked up enough.
Im continuing right along cleaning the scoring reels on player 3. I know your thinking i've abandoned the scoring reels @mopar but I haven't just wanted to guage my profress for functionality.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:1st of all if you knock all pins down it's supposed to give 30 points but is giving 40 on player 1 and player 2.
I would check the 10 - 90 Relay. It may be slightly vibrating and need to be stiffened up by applying a little more tension on the longer blades.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:2nd thing is you drop a dime and 2 players lights up and it starts on player 2.
Had you went through the Coin-Step-Up and Player-Step-Up Units? Sounds like they're not completely resetting..
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:3rd thing.. who the hell cares the 1st 2 things are jacked up enough.
Not a clue (?)
I went through every step up unit thoroughly and cleaned and made sure all fingers were making contact with the buttons on the bakelite. I will check that 10-99 relay today and see whats going on with it. Here also was the scoring rules that are on the playfield showing the 30 and not 40 points for a strike. I also cleaned all the contacts on the scoring wheel.
20190719_181643 (resized).jpgQuoted from PinDeLaPin:I went through every step up unit thoroughly and cleaned and made sure all fingers were making contact with the buttons on the bakelite. I will check that 10-99 relay today and see whats going on with it. Here also was the scoring rules that are on the playfield showing the 30 and not 40 points for a strike. I also cleaned all the contacts on the scoring wheel.[quoted image]
Are you certain the stepper was set properly? Maybe the fingers/arms are slightly out of "zero" position.
Nice work though!
Quoted from RonSS:Are you certain the stepper was set properly? Maybe the fingers/arms are slightly out of "zero" position.
Nice work though!
I will doublecheck each one later om. Good suggestion. Thx Ron
Had some unexpected guests pop in for the weekend so haven't had a chance to mess with the machine. Hopefully I can get back to it tomorrow so I can yrll and cuss at it for not working properly
Man oh man have I mentioned how much I dislike scoring reels? Slowly but surely making progress. I've been able to get 2 more done which now has players 1-3 done. Done with it for today but will be starting on player 4 reels tomorrow. Ughh!!!
I was just using another pin. Then had to fix a second pin, so I had crap all over!
It's nice to wrap up at least one project to get normalcy. Turns out these alleys are not the quick ones.
Slow and steady wins the race. You're doing great!
Bill- with EM games, be it a shuffle alley or a pinball, it's the methodical cleaning of the stepper units that takes the most time, but is usually where most of the issues lie. My United 'Chief Shuffle Alley' is set up at my parents house. It was taken apart and cleaned like what you are doing now, over ten years ago, and still runs like a champ issue free. There is light at the end of the tunnel
Quoted from Wmsfan-GAP:Bill- with EM games, be it a shuffle alley or a pinball, it's the methodical cleaning of the stepper units that takes the most time, but is usually where most of the issues lie. My United 'Chief Shuffle Alley' is set up at my parents house. It was taken apart and cleaned like what you are doing now, over ten years ago, and still runs like a champ issue free. There is light at the end of the tunnel
Yes methodical and tedious are definitely great descriptors. I've spent about an hour today sanding switch contacts this time with no steel wool. I needed a break from those rotten ass score reels man those are annoying. They wouldn't be so bad I would think if they weren't so freaking nasty and every one of em seems to be locked up. Will get back to those score reels tomorrow though hopefully.
But just think, you won't have to touch them again for decades!
Seriously, you're going to find so much satisfaction when you're done!
Turned on the machine to test my progress today after messing with the 2 steppers suggested by Mopar. When i dropped a dime to start a game all score reels reset except the 1000 reels on player 1 and player 2. Nxt thing was that the playfield switches didn't activate the pins and I thought i smelled smoke so I turned it off. I lifted the playfield up and noticed there was a small amount of smoke coming from the coil that pulls the bar down that resets the switches. I'm continuing to clean scoring reels but what would cause these new problems and what should I do to fix it?
Did the 1000s move at all?
Check your gapping again on the two steppers/switches you worked on. Maybe they are causing a coil lock?
Quoted from RonSS:Did the 1000s move at all?
Check your gapping again on the two steppers/switches you worked on. Maybe they are causing a coil lock?
They didn't move. I went back through those 2 steppers to make sure the switches opened and closed and switches were clean
Huh,
Well, let's wait for Mopar, or someone who's been down this road before.
In the meantime, check those 1000 reels. See if they move by hand but not when game started. That'd be a clue I think.
Quoted from RonSS:Huh,
Well, let's wait for Mopar, or someone who's been down this road before.
In the meantime, check those 1000 reels. See if they move by hand but not when game started. That'd be a clue I think.
Yep already pulled them both out and checked they are both free. Not sure why they aren't moving
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:smoke coming from the coil that pulls the bar down that resets the switches.
On the Bank Reset coil, a set of switches (that energizes the Bank Relay Coil) stuck together (gaped too close), or the
Score Motor hadn't returned to it's run out position..
I think you might have checked those switches before. They're the set that closes just before the Score Motor finishes it's
cycle. Oh yes, if the motor hadn't completed it's full cycle, the run out switch needs to be adjusted a bit closer..
On the 1,000 point not resetting. I believe the 1st and 2nd Players reset from the same Reset Relay. They'll be six set
of switches. You'll want to check those switches in the 1st & 2nd Player Reset Relay..
Quoted from Wmsfan-GAP:How long was it on before you smelled and saw the smoke?
Very qick. I shut it off immediately but the coil was hot as hell.
Quoted from Mopar:On the Bank Reset coil, a set of switches (that energizes the Bank Relay Coil) stuck together (gaped too close), or the
Score Motor hadn't returned to it's run out position..
I think you might have checked those switches before. They're the set that closes just before the Score Motor finishes it's
cycle. Oh yes, if the motor hadn't completed it's full cycle, the run out switch needs to be adjusted a bit closer..
On the 1,000 point not resetting. I believe the 1st and 2nd Players reset from the same Reset Relay. They'll be six set
of switches. You'll want to check those switches in the 1st & 2nd Player Reset Relay..
Thx Tim I will check those tomorrow. Do you think I cooked the coil or caught it in time? Guess I will set my DMM to ohms tomorrow also and see what it reads.
Although the Bank Relay Coil is 110V, most likely you're okay Bill, but if not,
I should be able to have you covered..
Yea, if the switches in the 1st and 2nd Player Score Reels are set properly, I'd
next check the 1st & 2nd Player Reset Relay. If you haven't, you'll also want to
check and make sure the switch stack screws are snugged..
Quoted from Mopar:Although the Bank Relay Coil is 110V, most likely you're okay Bill, but if not,
I should be able to have you covered..
Yea, if the switches in the 1st and 2nd Player Score Reels are set properly, I'd
next check the 1st & 2nd Player Reset Relay. If you haven't, you'll also want to
check and make sure the switch stack screws are snugged..
I did have some loose screws on a couple of them in the switch stack but all are tight now.
Quoted from Mopar:Although the Bank Relay Coil is 110V, most likely you're okay Bill, but if not,
I should be able to have you covered..
Yea, if the switches in the 1st and 2nd Player Score Reels are set properly, I'd
next check the 1st & 2nd Player Reset Relay. If you haven't, you'll also want to
check and make sure the switch stack screws are snugged..
I went through the 1st and 2nd player switches in the backbox and sanded all contacts on that yesterday. Should be able to pinpoint it since it is affecting the same reel on both sides.
Quoted from RonSS:How's your DVD? Answers a lot of questions, right?!
Yeah i've watched it and it did clear some things up but still definitely not everything.
I'm down here messing with it now and I decided to double check my steppers. Sure enough the Player "up" is sticking and not stepping up or resetting. I took it all back apart and put it back together and its still doing the same thing. I have counted the turns on the center toothed cog spring and its 36. One ofvthe others is at 37 and another is at 38. Does anyone know hoe many turns these are supposed to be set at?
15644341275757866157350389103062 (resized).jpgAre talking about spring tension?
If so, just give it another turn and try it. Mine was a little sluggish so I wound it once more and she resets nicely now.
Quoted from RonSS:Are talking about spring tension?
If so, just give it another turn and try it. Mine was a little sluggish so I wound it once more and she resets nicely now.
Is there a magic number of windings? Wasn't sure if too many would cause problems
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:Is there a magic number of windings? Wasn't sure if too many would cause problems
Yep! To many turns & it might not step up completely. Trial & error is my motto when working on these units.
So I used my super duper techincally advanced way of determining how many turns was on the spring in the 1st place. I use a small blade screwdriver and just start on the 1st winding dragging the screwdriver over and counting each click as it passes the high point of the winding. Its a super technical process!
Quoted from PM_Jeremy:Yep! To many turns & it might not step up completely. Trial & error is my motto when working on these units.
Jeremy by any chance do you know exactly how many winding are on yours?
Nope, when I first started working on these units (Williams pinball) I counted turns. But I always had to adjust them tighter or looser. So now I just start with 2 or 3 turns and adjust from there.
I count to start just for an idea of how many, but adjust as needed.
The nice part is you should be able to tell using the steppers without the machine needing to be activated.
I use tiny players to keep mine from unwinding too quickly, also from stabbing me. 
Quoted from RonSS:I count to start just for an idea of how many, but adjust as needed.
The nice part is you should be able to tell using the steppers without the machine needing to be activated.
I use tiny players to keep mine from unwinding too quickly, also from stabbing me.
Thing is i've moved it both ways, tighten and loosen and get same results. Seemed like the one time I had it worki g as soon as i put the main nut on and tightened it up thats when it quit stepping.
Also just to be clear these steppers have already been thoroughly cleaned. All super nasty solidified grease has been removed and they are clean as a whistle.
Hmm. and the other two springs are correct?
Are the coil units moving freely? Do the plungers easily actuate?
Sounds as though one of the arms isn't moving when a plunger is actuated.
Bill, if you get it to reset, then check if it'll step up by giving the Step Up Coil a snap just as
it does when energized..
Each individual Step Up can require different amount of winds, so it's just by feel, and then
a little experimenting..
Also, are you applying a thin film of lube on the wiper board? It makes a huge difference
and keeps things pretty much friction free.
This is the grease that's best to use..
Quoted from RonSS:Hmm. and the other two springs are correct?
Are the coil units moving freely? Do the plungers easily actuate?
Sounds as though one of the arms isn't moving when a plunger is actuated.
Yes the springs are the original ones that were on it. Should these be changed and if so what size are they and where do you get them?
Also yes the plungers are free and had just a tiny amount of dry graphite dust applied to them.
All pivot pins also had dry lube applied to them as well. It appears everything is moving freely just not resetting
Quoted from Mopar:Bill, if you get it to reset, then check if it'll step up by giving the Step Up Coil a snap just as
it does when energized..
Each individual Step Up can require different amount of winds, so it's just by feel, and then
a little experimenting..
Also, are you applying a thin film of lube on the wiper board? It makes a huge difference
and keeps things pretty much friction free.
This is the grease that's best to use..
https://www.google.com/search?q=super+lube+multi+purpose+clear+synthetic+grease+in+a+tube+grade+2&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=1GMUvCZ1zdgqcM%253A%252CwSvAk0aTTTMLGM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRdLUzw7l8zNAoey3zpNCpx1pxgDA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3guD__tzjAhXJB50JHQjNAFIQ9QEwCXoECAUQBg#imgrc=1GMUvCZ1zdgqcM:
I have not applied any type of lube to the contact board. I guess Inwill put in an order for some of that and see if that helps things.
Quoted from Mopar:Bill, if you get it to reset, then check if it'll step up by giving the Step Up Coil a snap just as
it does when energized..
Each individual Step Up can require different amount of winds, so it's just by feel, and then
a little experimenting..
Also, are you applying a thin film of lube on the wiper board? It makes a huge difference
and keeps things pretty much friction free.
This is the grease that's best to use..
https://www.google.com/search?q=super+lube+multi+purpose+clear+synthetic+grease+in+a+tube+grade+2&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=1GMUvCZ1zdgqcM%253A%252CwSvAk0aTTTMLGM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRdLUzw7l8zNAoey3zpNCpx1pxgDA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3guD__tzjAhXJB50JHQjNAFIQ9QEwCXoECAUQBg#imgrc=1GMUvCZ1zdgqcM:
Ok Tim just ordered some of this it will be here tomorrow.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:Ok Tim just ordered some of this it will be here tomorrow.
It'll be like night and day Bill. I apply it to all wiper boards including the Score Motor's wiper board
which gets used a lot..
Man this stepper is really aggravating me I just can't seem to find the magic winding point. I dropped it to 35 windings and now it steps up just fine but when i push the top coil in to reset it nothing happens unless I physically push it down by hand. What am I missing? Tim do you really think that super lube will fix this? Really seems there isn't enough tension from 1 of those springs to pull it back to rest position.
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