(Topic ID: 246595)

Need help with a United deluxe Mercury shuffle alley


By PinDeLaPin

14 days ago



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  • 105 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 hours ago by Mopar
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    There are 105 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 14 days ago

    I am in the process of diagnosing and troubleshooting a 1954 United's Deluxe Mercury shuffle alley bowling machine. All the info below was in another thread but I have transferred it to its own thread so it may be of help tsomeone at a later date.
    Just picked the machine up a few weeks ago and its currently not functioning. Looking for a schematic so I can start delving into it and bring it back to life. Currently it powers on and if I drop a dime in it starts the process and is in game mode however, none of the rollover switches register. Wmsfan suggested to double check the jones plugs between the alley and head. Make sure its a good connection and maybe clean the plugs a bit as well. I did clean the contacts of all connectors and reseated them as well with no change. Next per his advice I tried pushing a few of them from the underside of the alley to see if the gap was too large in the switches to make contact with no change. Mopar added this to try, if the Game Over Relay is resetting (which I now believe it is), and the Pin Relays 
    aren't energizing through the rollovers, I believe on your machine there's a set of switches in both the 
    Game Over Relay, and in the 1st Shot Relay that should be closed when those two relays are in the 
    reset position. Not any of the rollovers will activate any of the Pin Relays (in the Relay Bank) if either 
    of those switches aren't making true contact.
    Mopar was spot on right. When you power the game on the arm comes down resets all the switches. When you drop a dime in the slot only the game over coil trips and opens. If you try to close it manually the coil just starts buzzing trying to close.
    Also not sure this wiring is right it looks a bit sketchy to me. Also check out the right lug of the 2nd shot coil and both lugs of the game over coil they look pretty dark. Do these look like anything I should be concerned with?
    Mopar added this advice..Yes, that jumper does look sketchy, but I wouldn't be concerned with it at this point. 
    We at least know the Game Over Relay energizes.. 
    After start up, I'm thinking the Lock Relay isn't remaining energized. If not, that would point to a Slam 
    Switch or burned out Lock Relay coil.. 
    This is now the point at which I am at so any more points or tips would be greatly appreciated.

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    #2 14 days ago

    Bill, actually, because the Game Over Relay remains in the energized position and doesn't reset, it's really
    never is in the game mode..
    On the bottom board (probably on the far left) is the Lock Relay. You'll want to make sure the switches
    in that relay look okay and are gaped properly. Then with the machine on, check if it remains energized
    after you manually press it in the energized position. If it does, but doesn't energize at start up, then good
    chance that it's a set of contacts that closes when the Start Relay is in the energize (trip) position, and once
    again opens when the Start Relay is reset..

    #3 14 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Bill, actually, because the Game Over Relay remains in the energized position and doesn't reset, it's really
    never is in the game mode..
    On the bottom board (probably on the far left) is the Lock Relay. You'll want to make sure the switches
    in that relay look okay and are gaped properly. Then with the machine on, check if it remains energized
    after you manually press it in the energized position. If it does, but doesn't energize at start up, then good
    chance that it's a set of contacts that closes when the Start Relay is in the energize (trip) position, and once
    again opens when the Start Relay is reset..

    Ok its very confusing and I think the game is confusing me and itself. So when you drop a dime in to start a game the machine starts resetting the score reels and player 1 lights up. That is as far as it will progress because that game over relay pops up so no rollover switches work. I will check that other lock relay when I get home today and will post some more pics so you can see exactly what i'm seeing.

    #4 14 days ago

    Here are some reference pics of underneath the playfield. You can see in the one pic the loose wire that apparently at one time was attached to a tilt switch that is no longer there. I can tell it was there at one time cause there are 2 screw holes in the wood. Not sure if this missing would cause me any problems or not.

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    #5 14 days ago
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    #6 14 days ago

    Okay, that Vibration Switch is what I called the Slam Switch.
    Someone cut out the switches. The two yellow wires are already
    together and all you have to do is wire that 3rd wire with the two
    yellows. That'll be the same as the Vibration Switch making contact,
    then at start up, that should keep the Lock Relay energized, which then
    will keep the Game Over Relay from energizing and should remain in the
    reset position. You then should have active rollovers..

    #7 14 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Okay, that Vibration Switch is what I called the Slam Switch.
    Someone cut out the switches. The two yellow wires are already
    together and all you have to do is wire that 3rd wire with the two
    yellows. That'll be the same as the Vibration Switch making contact,
    then at start up, that should keep the Lock Relay energized, which then
    will keep the Game Over Relay from energizing and should remain in the
    reset position. You then should have active rollovers..

    After closer examination at that vibration tilt wire all 3 wires are already tied together.

    20190705_162735 (resized).jpg
    #8 14 days ago

    I noticed last night while staring at the relay bank under the playfield something i'm thinking maybe isn't correct. When a dime is dropped in to start a game the lock relay starts going ape shit and clattering back and forth about 5 or 6 times. Is this normal or possibly something that could be leading to my problems?

    #9 13 days ago

    When a game is first started, a set of contacts in the Start Relay should energize the Lock Relay, then a set
    of switches within' the Lock Relay itself keeps it energized and should remain energized until the machine is
    turned off. It sounds like the Lock Relay isn't holding itself. You had cleaned and adjust the Lock Relay's contacts?
    You could physically force the Lock Relay to stay in the energized position, but it'll be best to get it to hold itself..
    Had you looked for another Vibration Switch? Maybe in the Head or Coin Door..

    #10 13 days ago

    Yes there was a slam tilt in the head on the upper right corner I made sure the contacts were not touching on that one as well. On the lock relay switch I physically held it in the open position to try to energize the pin rollovers and it still did not work there may be another slam tilt or vibration switch in the coin door I will check that as well. When that lock relay engages shouldn't it just engage and not clatter back and forth wildly? I have a thin file i will try to hit the contacts on the switches in that lock relay but I did adjust them once already.

    #11 13 days ago

    Have you taken a dmm to the lock coil? Compare the reading to similar coils.

    #12 13 days ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Have you taken a dmm to the lock coil? Compare the reading to similar coils.

    I haven't done that yet but definitely planning on doing so to make sure the relay sustains power after it finishes clattering back and forth.

    #13 13 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    there was a slam tilt in the head on the upper right corner I made sure the contacts were not touching on that one as well.

    The thing is, the reason why all 3 wires should be together where the one Vibration switch was takin' out
    is because the contacts are actually suppose to be touching. That's what completes the Lock Relay's
    circuitry. You'll want to adjust the Head's Slam Switches so that they're making true contact..

    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    the lock relay switch I physically held it in the open position

    Had you meant to say that you held it in the "closed" (energized position)?
    The reason why it chatters is because the Start Relay is getting it fired off, but
    the Lock Relay itself isn't holding itself. An "open" Vibration (Slam) switch would
    cause this problem to happen. That Slam Switch in the Head needs to be closed
    along with any others..
    It's works different than some other Slam Switches on pinball machines..

    Quoted from Mopar:

    The two yellow wires are already
    together and all you have to do is wire that 3rd wire with the two
    yellows. That'll be the same as the Vibration Switch making contact,

    When I wrote this is when I meant that the sets of Vibration Switches need to be
    making true contact with each other..

    #14 13 days ago

    It definitely initially has power because it engages and clatters back and forth like its trying to lock. I can watch the contacts sparking when the relay is smacking them together as fast as it does.

    #15 13 days ago

    Had you meant to say that you held it in the "closed" (energized position)?

    Yep sorry what i meant to say is that I held it closed with no change.
    Just so I am clear you are saying since the 3 wires are tied together underneath the playfield that the slam tilt in the upper head should actually be making contact now and not open.

    #16 13 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    Had you meant to say that you held it in the "closed" (energized position)?
    Yep sorry what i meant to say is that I held it closed with no change.
    Just so I am clear you are saying since the 3 wires are tied together underneath the playfield that the slam tilt in the upper head should actually be making contact now and not open.

    I think he is saying they should be NC- normally closed.

    #17 13 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    ust so I am clear you are saying since the 3 wires are tied together underneath the playfield that the slam tilt in the upper head should actually be making contact now and not open.

    Actually No, that is not what I'm saying. Not because since they're tied together. They need to be tied together if the machine has
    any chance to function now that the Vibration Switch is missing..
    And as I had stated in my very first post on a different thread a few days ago about this issue, Vibration Switches need to be closed.
    They need to be Touching Each Other on this machine..

    #18 13 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Actually No, that is not what I'm saying. Not because since they're tied together. They need to be tied together if the machine has
    any chance to function now that the Vibration Switch is missing..
    And as I had stated in my very first post on a different thread a few days ago about this issue, Vibration Switches need to be closed.
    They need to be Touching Each Other on this machine..

    Thks for your patience Tim sorry I feel like such a newb dealing with this older machinery this a total learni g curve for me. I will be home in a couple hours and do what you suggested and post back with results.

    #19 13 days ago

    Ok here is the latest status update. I bent the vibration switch tabs in the head together to make contact. I started a game and lo and behold the game over relay did not go crazy and also didn't close. 1st player is lit up on the backglass but the rollover switches still don't work. Baby steps here and we are making good progress. What would be my next par6hway to follow here?

    #20 13 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    Ok here is the latest status update. I bent the vibration switch tabs in the head together to make contact. I started a game and lo and behold the game over relay did not go crazy and also didn't close. 1st player is lit up on the backglass but the rollover switches still don't work. Baby steps here and we are making good progress. What would be my next par6hway to follow here?

    Forgot to post a pick of the vibration switch in the head.

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    #21 13 days ago

    Ok so another update here to report. All of the back row switches are registering. 1st switch will trip 1st shot relay and 2nd switch will trip 2nd shot and then it will reset for the next turn. However none of the other switches still register at all.

    #22 13 days ago

    You'll want to check the switches in the Game Over Relay.
    After the game is started up, I think there may be a set in that
    relay that needs to be made (touching together).
    It may need cleaning and/or adjusting..
    Once again, that's when the Game Over Relay is in the reset position..
    Also it's possible it could be a closed set of switches on the Score Motor's
    cam when the Score Motor is at it's run-out (still) position..
    Have to go for awhile. I'll be checking back..

    #23 12 days ago

    Something else I forgot to post was the pin rest motor sqeals and squawls really loudly. Is this something that can just be oiled or more of an indicator that the motor needs to be replaced?

    #24 12 days ago

    On the backside of the Pin Reset Motor there's the small armature tail that goes in and out as it's
    energized, then not energized. Applying a couple of drops of light weight oil on that small tail is usually
    a plus for the motor's performance..

    #25 12 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    On the backside of the Pin Reset Motor there's the small armature tail that goes in and out as it's
    energized, then not energized. Applying a couple of drops of light weight oil on that small tail is usually
    a plus for the motor's performance..

    Took your advice on the motor and its it smooth and quiet now. However for whatever reason I have lost the back row of roll overs. No idea why they stopped working but they are now dead like the other rollovers. Something else to note as well is the 1-2 and the 5-6 player relays in the head flutter around like the lock relay was doing upon starting a game. I adjusted the switches and can't see anything wrong with them.

    #26 12 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    Took your advice on the motor and its it smooth and quiet now. However for whatever reason I have lost the back row of roll overs. No idea why they stopped working but they are now dead like the other rollovers. Something else to note as well is the 1-2 and the 5-6 player relays in the head flutter around like the lock relay was doing upon starting a game. I adjusted the switches and can't see anything wrong with them.

    Don't feel badly, I'm about to start up on mine again. I swear, it feels like 2 steps forward, 1 step back every time. You'll get there.

    #27 11 days ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Don't feel badly, I'm about to start up on mine again. I swear, it feels like 2 steps forward, 1 step back every time. You'll get there.

    Sure as hell does. This is a total learn as I go project here without a doubt. Planning on messing with it some more when I get home today. Really just unsure as to why the back row of switches decided to quit working. Only thing I did was pull the pin reset motor to clean it and oul it up to eliminate a horrible sqawl it was making. As long as people keep giving me ideas to try I am convinced I will get it working again. Been giving myself a crash course on EM machines over at pinwiki also to get a better understanding of what the hell i'm doing. I can say definitely that there is no way I would have stayed in the pinball hobby if there were only EM machines. It is so much easier at least to me to work on SS technology. Of course if all you grew up on was these older machines then it's probably 2nd nature to you.

    #28 11 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    Something else to note as well is the 1-2 and the 5-6 player relays in the head flutter around like the lock relay was doing upon starting a game.

    The Player Score Reset Relays are suppose to act that way at start up. That's how the score reels
    all reset to zeros.

    Quoted from Mopar:

    You'll want to check the switches in the Game Over Relay.
    After the game is started up, I think there may be a set in that
    relay that needs to be made (touching together).
    It may need cleaning and/or adjusting..
    Once again, that's when the Game Over Relay is in the reset position..
    Also it's possible it could be a closed set of switches on the Score Motor's
    cam when the Score Motor is at it's run-out (still) position..

    Above also pertains to the rear rollovers from Uniteds from this era..

    #29 11 days ago

    Ok so i"m kinda at a stand still right now not sure where to go. I looked at the switches in the game over relay and wasn't able to determine which contacts needed to be touching. It currently is back to tripping the game over relay as soon as a dime is dropped. Took some pics of the game over relay switches not sure these will help identify whichbones need to be making contact that currently are not.

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    #30 9 days ago

    Your pics are clear, but what you need to do is manually (and slowly) trip, then latch the
    Relays and carefully look how the blades are moving up and down and that'll help determine
    when the contacts should be open, and when should be closed..
    Also, another good idea is to make sure that the screws for the switch blades stacks are
    snugged and fairly tight..
    On the Game Over Relay tripping as soon as start up. Is the Lock Relay not remaining energized?
    If so, you'll want to recheck the vibration switches..

    #31 9 days ago

    First thi g i did is check both vibration switches and the one is tied together and other is making good contact as well. Lock relay is not energized which is why im assuming the game over relay immediately trips when a dime is dropped.

    #32 9 days ago

    That is why the G.O. Relay is tripping.
    Does the Lock Relay pulsate like it had before at start up..

    #33 9 days ago

    No it isnt pulsating anymore just doesn't engage

    #34 9 days ago

    Not often, but I have seen them kinda burn out and not blow a fuse.
    Do you have an amp meter to check if it's getting juice at start up?

    #35 9 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Not often, but I have seen them kinda burn out and not blow a fuse.
    Do you have an amp meter to check if it's getting juice at start up?

    I will hook my DMM up to it and measure voltage and report back what that reading is.

    #36 8 days ago

    See, now you're really having fun!

    Soon you'll be trying to find obsolete parts! Yay!

    Seriously though, it is fun, and we all love seeing improvement. I'm pulling for you!

    #37 8 days ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    See, now you're really having fun!
    Soon you'll be trying to find obsolete parts! Yay!
    Seriously though, it is fun, and we all love seeing improvement. I'm pulling for you!

    I just wish I knew what the hell I was doing then it might go faster.
    I'm pretty sure if I can just alleviate the lock relay/game over relay issue then the rest will come a little easier.

    #38 8 days ago

    Down here messing with this thing again and getting strange results. Same story drop a dime lock relay doesnt engage and game over relay trips. I took steel wool to all the contacts on the lock relay and game over plus player 1. Now if i then manually engage lock relay i can then get game over relay to push down. Also on the backglass the 9th frame is lit up now. Plus i pushed the 1 and 8 rollover switch and they engaged and raised those pins but then didnt do anything else like tell the score reels to move. I stuck my dmm on the lock relay and it was reading 4.45 volts and the game over relay is reading 6.18v1. Measured the power at the wall receptacle and it was reading 118v

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    #39 8 days ago

    Pretty certain steel wool is a no no.

    Use a flexstone or maybe some 800 grit sandpaper for the contacts.

    #40 8 days ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Pretty certain steel wool is a no no.

    That's right. Steel Wool causes steel fragments.
    I've always used an old style car point file.
    If at start up, the frame is on 9, you need to clean the Frame Step Up Unit..
    Actually, first going through the entire machine before plugging it in I found
    to be a huge plus..

    #41 7 days ago

    Yeah I realized it started to fragment while I was using it but it cleaned up the contacts very nicely. I hen sprayed compressed air on the contacts that I cleaned and then I vacuumed everything up also to avoid any kind of fibers that would cause a short

    #42 7 days ago

    Nic Schell recently did a video over on Facebook about cleaning and adjusting relays. I only saw a tiny bit when it was live but there's some great info there.

    https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.schell/videos/10156172583066806/

    #43 7 days ago

    I'm going through a EM Shooting Gallery right now. I plugged it in and was getting weird results. I took all of the stepper motors out,disassembled, cleaned, greased, adjusted the switches, and reassembled them. Just doing that resolved 90% of the issues I was having. One example is the shot counter wouldn't reset all the way to zero on startup. The issue was the shot unit had solidified grease in it that was making it to where the spring didn't have enough umpf to turn the cog all the way to zero. Maybe before continuing trying to get it working, give it a good cleaning.

    #44 7 days ago
    Quoted from cad-kid:

    Nic Schell recently did a video over on Facebook about cleaning and adjusting relays. I only saw a tiny bit when it was live but there's some great info there.
    https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.schell/videos/10156172583066806/

    That is great just what I needed was a ceash course on proper relat and switch cleaning and adjusting. Thks

    #45 7 days ago
    Quoted from edward472:

    I'm going through a EM Shooting Gallery right now. I plugged it in and was getting weird results. I took all of the stepper motors out,disassembled, cleaned, greased, adjusted the switches, and reassembled them. Just doing that resolved 90% of the issues I was having. One example is the shot counter wouldn't reset all the way to zero on startup. The issue was the shot unit had solidified grease in it that was making it to where the spring didn't have enough umpf to turn the cog all the way to zero. Maybe before continuing trying to get it working, give it a good cleaning.

    Yes i'm learning these things as I go. Had no idea what a stepper even was until picking up this machine. Now I know what it is just not really what its medieval looking ass does. My skills really are geared towards newer SS machines I had no previous experience with EM's before purchasing this machine. However, I do know more today about them than I did yesterday so let's call it slow progress.

    #46 7 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    I cleaned and then I vacuumed everything up also to avoid any kind of fibers that would cause a short

    Good thinking on vacumming the fragments, but you'd be surprised what a nuisance one small single strand can cause..
    On countless of bowlers (?) (triple digits), I've filed the contacts, and cleaned the wiper boards (the riveted boards on
    the Steppers) with a solution and Scotch Brite, then a slight film of light weight grease on the boards..
    On shafts, such as plungers, I finish cleaning with Lemon Pledge. Keeps things slick, and doesn't make plastic pieces
    swell (as a variety of lubricants are known to do).
    A pair of 3 ft. long (or so) wire with elagator clips on the ends is a plus to have on hand. Good for many purposes
    including you'd be able to jump the Lock Relay for testing..

    #47 7 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Good thinking on vacumming the fragments, but you'd be surprised what a nuisance one small single strand can cause..
    On countless of bowlers (?) (triple digits), I've filed the contacts, and cleaned the wiper boards (the riveted boards on
    the Steppers) with a solution and Scotch Brite, then a slight film of light weight grease on the boards..
    On shafts, such as plungers, I finish cleaning with Lemon Pledge. Keeps things slick, and doesn't make plastic pieces
    swell (as a variety of lubricants are known to do).
    A pair of 3 ft. long (or so) wire with elagator clips on the ends is a plus to have on hand. Good for many purposes
    including you'd be able to jump the Lock Relay for testing..

    Yeah definitely won't use the steel wool again I don't need any more problems rearing their ugly heads I have enough already with this machine Those are all very good tips thank you for sharing them, when you put a light coat of Grease on those stepper boards what brand of the grease are you using? When I get home this afternoon I think I'm going to go right to those steppers and give them a real good cleaning. I wiped them down initially but I'm sure they could probably use an alcohol swabbing As well. One other thing I noticed I forgot to mention is the first real in the first player in the back box it does not turn so thousands will not register. Only hundreds doubles and single digits register on the score reel.

    #48 7 days ago
    Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

    Yeah definitely won't use the steel wool again I don't need any more problems rearing their ugly heads I have enough already with this machine Those are all very good tips thank you for sharing them, when you put a light coat of Grease on those stepper boards what brand of the grease are you using? When I get home this afternoon I think I'm going to go right to those steppers and give them a real good cleaning. I wiped them down initially but I'm sure they could probably use an alcohol swabbing As well. One other thing I noticed I forgot to mention is the first real in the first player in the back box it does not turn so thousands will not register. Only hundreds doubles and single digits register on the score reel.

    That's probably solidified grease.
    Again, that TOP #8 DVD would help here.

    I went through all 18 of my score reels, plus every stepper before even plugging the thing in. It was definitely a test of will power!

    Do a quick YouTube search for cleaning steppers and/or score reels. It will probably give you some advance.

    #49 7 days ago

    Try this one. But I still recommend getting TOP #8

    #50 7 days ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    Try this one. But I still recommend getting TOP #8

    Thks Ron i'm probably gonna order that TOP 8 video just to have on hand as it seems like a handy resource to own. I have 24 score reels and the thought of taking each one out and apart is not too apealing but I know it must be done. Hopefully tomorrow or sunday, not sure which i'm gonna take those relays all apart and throw the relay brackets in the ultrasonic cleaner.

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