(Topic ID: 170759)

Need Help... Williams System 11 Display Garbled!

By wildinindiana

7 years ago


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  • 32 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by mcklit
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 7 years ago

So, I have gone through the forums and can not find the issue I have. It seems that everyone fixed theirs by turning the ribbon cable over because it was installed incorrectly, or the ever infamous 7180 chips going bad. Here is what happened. I picked up a Williams Grand Lizard, I played it at the fellas house and the displays worked fine, clean and bright original. I looked at the CPU and it did have a light amount of corrosion from the battery that I figured I would fix when I got it home, not a big deal... I got it home and set it up, played it for a few that evening, then the next morning and the Player 1, Player 2, and Match displays were garbled. No big deal, as there was a sound issue as well ( the multiball sound played during attraction mode and the end of every ball).

Sound Issue: Battery corrosion into SRC 2 and SRC 3... SRC 2 is to the sound so I figured, I would replace these 2 and play some pinball. Once I repined a few connectors and replaced the SRCs, the sound was all good. So that is fixed. On to the next....

Display Issue: As I said above, I replaced SRC 2 and SRC 3... 2 fixed the sound issue, 3 did not fix the display issue that was fine the day before! BTW, the schematic has the SRCs backwards from the board identification... On the Schematic and Parts List, they are listed in the opposite position than the actual board, which can really throw you off if you don't see the parts list before the schematic. SRC 2 is above the SRC 3 on the board itself, not the other way around like the Parts List shows and translates over to the Schematic. Anyway, I went to the ribbon cable next, it seems okay, but I will be replacing it anyway. I do not believe this is the issue though, as I put it in diagnostic mode and almost all the segments lit full. A couple did not, but that will be taken care of later. I logic probed the 7180s under diagnostic test and the signal was miserable on the input side on U13 and U14, maybe a couple actually strobed. This leads me to believe the problem is before said chips. It is frustrating me to no end. It is very possible that I am missing something silly, because I am overthinking it, and I hope I am. But maybe not, I don't know about you, but for me a fresh prospective is usually very helpful. Also, I should say that I replaced the SRCs with Line Resistors, not that it should make much difference because, Ive done this and seen it done multiple times without the caps with no issues. Maybe I'm wrong there, but again Ive done it myself and have a few friends that their boards have had the same treatment, with no issues. I do not believe the caps make that much difference. Correct me if Im wrong.

Here is a video I made to help everyone see the issue. I can take a video of the diagnostic mode if anyone is interested or can help. Thank you in advance for all the help and insight that is so great on here.

#3 7 years ago

So, I went through and checked them singly like that and no difference. So I swapped around the cables between displays and flipped them all around, again no change.... I am going to probe the chips again at some point here and recheck my results. Thank you though. All ideas very welcome.

#5 7 years ago

I will get pictures of the damage and a video of the displays stopped on each digit tomorrow if I can. Yes I have cut and replaced the battery holder. It was not holding the settings as well when I got it, of course after the replacement, it is now.

#6 7 years ago

Here is a video of the diagnostic test of the displays.

#7 7 years ago

Here are pictures of the battery area.

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#14 7 years ago

So, I learned a bit of a lesson on that one... I was blind sided by the fact that it was perfect and went to the video above the next morning... So I disassembled it all again. Broke the DMM back out, and started hitting up the traces to the U's and the 26 pin display, I believe J22. I found one trace that was bad to the U, but 7 of the 8 to the Pins had no continuity... Wah Wah... So, considering the condition of the traces, here came the trace wire. Ahead of myself though. Everything got a good sanding and sealer. I rebuilt the traces reinstalled the battery holder and off we went. Here is a picture of what happened. Much better but not quite right. Thank you by the way. Thats what I get for not doing the simple things first... Anyway, now I need to run down the couple segments missing, and the top line always dimly lit... Back to the logic probe... Crazy how so much can go wrong from one evening to the next morning...

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#16 7 years ago

Okay, I don't have an off board solution at the moment. It is a brand new battery holder with new batteries... Once I get my order in with the off board solution, I will swap them out. Not sure why I'm inviting it to happen again with the corrosion remediation, and a new battery holder...?

#23 7 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

You need to stop making excuses for using the "on board" battery holder and start coming up with excuses to NOT just buy the NVRAM solution. Minimum, buy a plastic battery holder and remotely mount it. The battery holders on sys 11 pcbs just get in the damn way when trying to resolve MPU issues!

It seems that this forum post has gone crazy, I will hit each reply singly.
I agree with you completely, I have the nvram on order, I thought I had one here but I am out. As soon as it comes in, I will be replacing it. Thanks

Quoted from snyper2099:

How would the game work properly in the first post "at the fellas house" then? The OP did not change or replace those components. I suspect they are fine and just jumped by one pin on the backside of the MPU.

Quoted from johnwartjr:

He said he replaced them in the very 1st post.

It did work fine at the fellas house, but that was with the oem SRCs... He is correct that I replaced them. BTW, the 2 SRCs were so corroded that they had split open and were falling apart... Now it is possible that I placed them one pin in the wrong direction, sucks for sure, but could be. I could have swore that when I looked at the schematic, I installed it at pin 1. Maybe I am wrong on that, as I have found 2 labeling mistakes in the schematics already. Don't tell my wife I admitted I am wrong though please. It will ruin the image I have worked so hard for.

Thank you for that Grumpy, I did screw that up for sure...

Quoted from snyper2099:

Take a pill man. I didn't notice that he replaced them since the game originally worked properly... anyone can make a mistake. Now I am wondering if the original ones were tested before replacing them.

Everybody... Its okay, I'm the idiot here, I screwed up, I got in a rush, I read the schematic incorrectly, lets be honest, dont we all get a little crazy when we are feening for some pinball... lol...

I do want to thank everyone, and let everyone know that I appreciate everything that has been posted. And to grumpy, I missed your post before I took the board to the bench and let loose on it... My fault. I appreciate your help very much, as well as others.

#24 7 years ago

I will post again once I have corrected the SRCs. Thank you again...

#25 7 years ago

So I am physically ill... I corrected the SRCs. Rechecked all the traces, checked for continuity everywhere, including the unaffected SRCs. Then decided to check the ribbon since the board was out again, even though I have a new one on order. Then plugged everything back up... Then booted it. It booted up fine but looked like the last picture that I posted again... I played a couple games and got ready to put it in test mode. Side note, my sound problem is back now that the SRCs are installed at the dot... But, I dont really have to worry about that now... I put it in test mode to look at the display output again and logic probe it. After i went into test mode, I ran through all of them to see, and when I was on my way to open the back and get ready to probe it. It went off and Player 1 Player 2 and Match went to faint 8s, and its done... I have never seen anything like it. If it matters at all diagnostic led is still 0.

It looked like the first picture before "IT" happened, now it looks like the second picture.

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#26 7 years ago

Back to checking voltages...

#28 7 years ago

I did order bussed, but they were out of the ones that I always get and told me these were the comps... Here is a picture.

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#30 7 years ago

Sorry, been really busy. That is how they are set up now. Sound issue was back before it went completely out...

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