(Topic ID: 170759)

Need Help... Williams System 11 Display Garbled!


By wildinindiana

2 years ago



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  • 32 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by mcklit
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 2 years ago

So, I have gone through the forums and can not find the issue I have. It seems that everyone fixed theirs by turning the ribbon cable over because it was installed incorrectly, or the ever infamous 7180 chips going bad. Here is what happened. I picked up a Williams Grand Lizard, I played it at the fellas house and the displays worked fine, clean and bright original. I looked at the CPU and it did have a light amount of corrosion from the battery that I figured I would fix when I got it home, not a big deal... I got it home and set it up, played it for a few that evening, then the next morning and the Player 1, Player 2, and Match displays were garbled. No big deal, as there was a sound issue as well ( the multiball sound played during attraction mode and the end of every ball).

Sound Issue: Battery corrosion into SRC 2 and SRC 3... SRC 2 is to the sound so I figured, I would replace these 2 and play some pinball. Once I repined a few connectors and replaced the SRCs, the sound was all good. So that is fixed. On to the next....

Display Issue: As I said above, I replaced SRC 2 and SRC 3... 2 fixed the sound issue, 3 did not fix the display issue that was fine the day before! BTW, the schematic has the SRCs backwards from the board identification... On the Schematic and Parts List, they are listed in the opposite position than the actual board, which can really throw you off if you don't see the parts list before the schematic. SRC 2 is above the SRC 3 on the board itself, not the other way around like the Parts List shows and translates over to the Schematic. Anyway, I went to the ribbon cable next, it seems okay, but I will be replacing it anyway. I do not believe this is the issue though, as I put it in diagnostic mode and almost all the segments lit full. A couple did not, but that will be taken care of later. I logic probed the 7180s under diagnostic test and the signal was miserable on the input side on U13 and U14, maybe a couple actually strobed. This leads me to believe the problem is before said chips. It is frustrating me to no end. It is very possible that I am missing something silly, because I am overthinking it, and I hope I am. But maybe not, I don't know about you, but for me a fresh prospective is usually very helpful. Also, I should say that I replaced the SRCs with Line Resistors, not that it should make much difference because, Ive done this and seen it done multiple times without the caps with no issues. Maybe I'm wrong there, but again Ive done it myself and have a few friends that their boards have had the same treatment, with no issues. I do not believe the caps make that much difference. Correct me if Im wrong.

Here is a video I made to help everyone see the issue. I can take a video of the diagnostic mode if anyone is interested or can help. Thank you in advance for all the help and insight that is so great on here.

#2 2 years ago

Power off.
Disconnect P2 and Ball In Play displays.
Power up with P1, P3 and P4 connected. Note condition.
Power off.
Disconnect P1 and connect P2.
Power up with P2, P3 and P4 connected. Note condition.
Disconnect P2 and connect Ball In Play.
Power up. Note condition

This process may reveal a bad display, and also gets the cables reseated.

If you are still having the problem, swap cables between displays, then swap them end-to-end making sure the red stripe is to PIN 1 on both ends.

#3 2 years ago

So, I went through and checked them singly like that and no difference. So I swapped around the cables between displays and flipped them all around, again no change.... I am going to probe the chips again at some point here and recheck my results. Thank you though. All ideas very welcome.

#4 2 years ago

Make a video of the display test and stop at each number for a few seconds so I can see the difference between top and bottom displays. Have you cut off the battery holder yet? How about a close up pic of the damage.

#5 2 years ago

I will get pictures of the damage and a video of the displays stopped on each digit tomorrow if I can. Yes I have cut and replaced the battery holder. It was not holding the settings as well when I got it, of course after the replacement, it is now.

#6 2 years ago

Here is a video of the diagnostic test of the displays.

#7 2 years ago

Here are pictures of the battery area.

14762029318521606207039 (resized).jpg

#8 2 years ago

J22 is Display Data. With the battery corrosion you almost certainly have poor continuity to J22 and probably the J22 header pins themselves.

#9 2 years ago

REMOVE the battery holder and VISUALLY INSPECT AND TEST ALL TRACES behind it and through to the connector. You could have multiple broken traces.

Also, I recently fixed an issue like this where the IC at U44 was bad on the MPU.

#10 2 years ago

Remove battery holder.

Inspect all traces from U41 and U42 to the ribbon headers, including through the SRCs

Having said that, you have not properly dealt with the battery damage. Until you remove all affected components, sand the traces down to bare copper, neutralize them, seal them, and rebuild the section of the board, the corrosion WILL return. Maybe not overnight, but it's not something to forget, as it will continue to rot while you're unaware, until the damage is severe enough that the board is a total loss.

#11 2 years ago

SCR 2 and SCR 3 are installed incorrectly. The resistor packs are off by one pin. Fix and retest.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

SCR 2 and SCR 3 are installed incorrectly. The resistor packs are off by one pin. Fix and retest.

I'm thinking they are not installed incorrectly - but they are the incorrect resistors. They should be a 10 pin resistor, and I believe both ends are connected to ground, but it does make a difference.

But those traces do look questionable. I also recommend removal of that battery pack, and testing the traces.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from songofsixpence:

I'm thinking they are not installed incorrectly

The dot on the board is where the five volts is. This is why they need to be moved over one pin. These packs don't have the caps in them so they do not connect to the last pin which is ground. Right now the resistors are connected to ground which is pulling down the low pulses to ground level causing a lot of blank segments.

#14 2 years ago

So, I learned a bit of a lesson on that one... I was blind sided by the fact that it was perfect and went to the video above the next morning... So I disassembled it all again. Broke the DMM back out, and started hitting up the traces to the U's and the 26 pin display, I believe J22. I found one trace that was bad to the U, but 7 of the 8 to the Pins had no continuity... Wah Wah... So, considering the condition of the traces, here came the trace wire. Ahead of myself though. Everything got a good sanding and sealer. I rebuilt the traces reinstalled the battery holder and off we went. Here is a picture of what happened. Much better but not quite right. Thank you by the way. Thats what I get for not doing the simple things first... Anyway, now I need to run down the couple segments missing, and the top line always dimly lit... Back to the logic probe... Crazy how so much can go wrong from one evening to the next morning...

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#15 2 years ago

Take the battery holder back off. You are inviting the same thing to happen again....

#16 2 years ago

Okay, I don't have an off board solution at the moment. It is a brand new battery holder with new batteries... Once I get my order in with the off board solution, I will swap them out. Not sure why I'm inviting it to happen again with the corrosion remediation, and a new battery holder...?

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from wildinindiana:

Okay, I don't have an off board solution at the moment. It is a brand new battery holder with new batteries... Once I get my order in with the off board solution, I will swap them out. Not sure why I'm inviting it to happen again with the corrosion remediation, and a new battery holder...?

You need to stop making excuses for using the "on board" battery holder and start coming up with excuses to NOT just buy the NVRAM solution. Minimum, buy a plastic battery holder and remotely mount it. The battery holders on sys 11 pcbs just get in the damn way when trying to resolve MPU issues!

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

SCR 2 and SCR 3 are installed incorrectly. The resistor packs are off by one pin. Fix and retest.

How would the game work properly in the first post "at the fellas house" then? The OP did not change or replace those components. I suspect they are fine and just jumped by one pin on the backside of the MPU.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

How would the game work properly in the first post "at the fellas house" then? The OP did not change or replace those components. I suspect they are fine and just jumped by one pin on the backside of the MPU.

He said he replaced them in the very 1st post.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from wildinindiana:

Okay, I don't have an off board solution at the moment. It is a brand new battery holder with new batteries... Once I get my order in with the off board solution, I will swap them out. Not sure why I'm inviting it to happen again with the corrosion remediation, and a new battery holder...?

Not trying to brow beat you into submission. People forget about batteries sometimes. Even new batteries can leak. It is better to have them off the board asap. An original style battery holder can be remotely mounted with little effort.

The risk is just too great to leave batteries board-mounted. Simple quick task verses what you are experiencing now with corrosion.

#21 2 years ago

I wonder why I even try to help any more.

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I wonder why I even try to help any more.

Take a pill man. I didn't notice that he replaced them since the game originally worked properly... anyone can make a mistake. Now I am wondering if the original ones were tested before replacing them.

Quoted from johnwartjr:

He said he replaced them in the very 1st post.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

You need to stop making excuses for using the "on board" battery holder and start coming up with excuses to NOT just buy the NVRAM solution. Minimum, buy a plastic battery holder and remotely mount it. The battery holders on sys 11 pcbs just get in the damn way when trying to resolve MPU issues!

It seems that this forum post has gone crazy, I will hit each reply singly.
I agree with you completely, I have the nvram on order, I thought I had one here but I am out. As soon as it comes in, I will be replacing it. Thanks

Quoted from snyper2099:

How would the game work properly in the first post "at the fellas house" then? The OP did not change or replace those components. I suspect they are fine and just jumped by one pin on the backside of the MPU.

Quoted from johnwartjr:

He said he replaced them in the very 1st post.

It did work fine at the fellas house, but that was with the oem SRCs... He is correct that I replaced them. BTW, the 2 SRCs were so corroded that they had split open and were falling apart... Now it is possible that I placed them one pin in the wrong direction, sucks for sure, but could be. I could have swore that when I looked at the schematic, I installed it at pin 1. Maybe I am wrong on that, as I have found 2 labeling mistakes in the schematics already. Don't tell my wife I admitted I am wrong though please. It will ruin the image I have worked so hard for.

Thank you for that Grumpy, I did screw that up for sure...

Quoted from snyper2099:

Take a pill man. I didn't notice that he replaced them since the game originally worked properly... anyone can make a mistake. Now I am wondering if the original ones were tested before replacing them.

Everybody... Its okay, I'm the idiot here, I screwed up, I got in a rush, I read the schematic incorrectly, lets be honest, dont we all get a little crazy when we are feening for some pinball... lol...

I do want to thank everyone, and let everyone know that I appreciate everything that has been posted. And to grumpy, I missed your post before I took the board to the bench and let loose on it... My fault. I appreciate your help very much, as well as others.

#24 2 years ago

I will post again once I have corrected the SRCs. Thank you again...

#25 2 years ago

So I am physically ill... I corrected the SRCs. Rechecked all the traces, checked for continuity everywhere, including the unaffected SRCs. Then decided to check the ribbon since the board was out again, even though I have a new one on order. Then plugged everything back up... Then booted it. It booted up fine but looked like the last picture that I posted again... I played a couple games and got ready to put it in test mode. Side note, my sound problem is back now that the SRCs are installed at the dot... But, I dont really have to worry about that now... I put it in test mode to look at the display output again and logic probe it. After i went into test mode, I ran through all of them to see, and when I was on my way to open the back and get ready to probe it. It went off and Player 1 Player 2 and Match went to faint 8s, and its done... I have never seen anything like it. If it matters at all diagnostic led is still 0.

It looked like the first picture before "IT" happened, now it looks like the second picture.

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#26 2 years ago

Back to checking voltages...

#27 2 years ago

There are 3 types of resistor packs. Bussed, Isolated and Dual terminator. SCR2 and SCR3 are 4.7k Bussed resistor array. Are you sure you got the correct type? There should be a dot on the resistor array that needs to be aligned with the dot on the board. Whats the part number on the resistor array?

#28 2 years ago

I did order bussed, but they were out of the ones that I always get and told me these were the comps... Here is a picture.

20161015_090124[1] (resized).jpg

#29 2 years ago

The data sheet confirms that these are the correct resistors, the black line is pin 1 which goes to the white dot on the board.

#30 2 years ago

Sorry, been really busy. That is how they are set up now. Sound issue was back before it went completely out...

#31 2 years ago
Quoted from wildinindiana:

I did order bussed, but they were out of the ones that I always get and told me these were the comps... Here is a picture.

I can't find a datasheet on that item id to confirm it is in fact bussed, you can check it by putting one lead from your dmm at 1, then other lead to 2, then 3, etc, each should be about 4.7kohm. I went the route of getting a 10 pin and cutting the last one off but your route looks fine if it is in fact bussed.

you can read more on the subject at https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/advice-for-resistor-network

I don't think that's your problem though but make sure it's right first.

I had a similar issue but there were a few issues compiled, one of them were ribbon cables at the displays on backwards, two of them in fact. but it didn't end there. Sounds like you triple checked the Red line goes to the "1" pin on each of them.

On the power board itself I found a blown power transistor at Q1 (or Q3 I can't remember I replaced both), I'll show you a picture and list Digikey part numbers to be clear. You can't replace either but there is a work around with crafty bending of legs.

I also found one of the resistors at R1 (or R4) was blown open and replaced them with the recommended fire resistant type.

First someone mentioned checking voltage, but you NEED to have a steady hand or you'll have to replace items on the power board anyways. That wasn't my story but it looks suspicious I know. 3J5 is the power board spot that powers the display, looking at it pin 1 is on the left side and voltages are as follows in DC.
1. GND
2. Blank
3. -100 V
4. +100 V
5. Key
6. +5 V

If your power board still has the round header pins, 28 year old capacitors, it's time for a rebuild and Digikey won't sub your parts.
Q1 - MJE15030 (NPN)
Q3 - MJE15031 (PNP)
ZR2,ZR4 - 1N4763 Zener Diode 91V (Qty 2)(Recommended to downgrade the voltage from 100 to extend display life)
ZR1,ZR3 - BZX79C3V9 Zener 3.9V (Qty 2)
R1,R4 - 39KZCT-ND 39k Ohm 2W (Qty 2) (Flameproof nice touch)
C1, C3 - 493-14434 Capacitors axial (Qty 2)
C10 - 493-7147-ND Capacitor (Qty1) Big one I did some fancy work to get it in, the tie strap holes are already there.

C5 - can replace with a radial 100uf x 100V for the solenoids but you get the idea, if you need more part numbers for a Digikey order or help finding them PM me I've been a Digikey buyer for years. Also for the new headers buy the full strip of 24, part number WM50003-24-ND and a bunch of EB1094-ND copper braid if you don't have a solder sucker gun (I hope Santa is good to me this year...Fingers crossed)

Pic below this is what it should look like when your done.

I hope this helps, if nothing else a rebuilt power board will light that sucker up really nice, no more dimming when you hit flippers and really make it feel like a new game! Please report back if any of this solves your problem.

IMG_20161019_220708 (resized).jpg
IMG_20161019_235815 (resized).jpg

-1
#32 2 years ago

I had a similar problem with Pinbot that was driving me crazy. In the end it turned out to be the ribbon cables causing the problem.
To test if the problem you are dealing with is similar to mine – just do a simple test and let me know the outcome.

Disconnect ALL ribbon cables from the display board to the LED display. Either take a ribbon cable from a working pinball – if you have more pinballs you can pick from or get a new one from a store. You need to make sure the cable is 100% ok.
Use this one cable on each player display at a time. Never mind the ball in play display which is a different pin size. What happens when you do that?

Please note – DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER CABLES INSTALLED. Even if the LED you are disconnecting is working. Only test with this one cable and the go through each player display at a time with the cable you know that is working.

If you problem is the same as mine, you’ll find that each display actually work when only one at a time is connected. So I’m curious to know the result of your test.

Good luck…

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