(Topic ID: 118789)

!Now with Video! Need help troubleshooting blown fuse...

By fotoboy

9 years ago


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  • 34 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by newmantjn
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 9 years ago

Hi there,
1968 Williams machine blowing fuses 15a on the 24V side.
I just need some tips for systematically finding the culprit.

I have isolated the problem to one set of cables (one plug)
there is no obvious problem, burned coil etc.

I was just hoping that anybody who knows any tips or resources would share them.

I have my DMM ready and waiting.
thanks

#2 9 years ago

Have you checked the connectors to the plugs for a bridged connection? A piece of metal or stray solder could be causing the issue.

It could also be an internal crack in one of the wires.

#3 9 years ago

I have on occasion found a short within the wiring bundle. If you've narrowed it down to one plug that is a good place to start. One game I had there was a sharp angle in the bundle near the edge of the play field. Raising and lowering the play field over the course of 50 years caused some of the cloth covered wires to fray away and make contact with each other.

#4 9 years ago

I just further isolated the problem to one of the wires on the plug (aligator clips and turning machine on and off) interestingly it is not the same color on both sides of the plug, but it is the correct wire... And was working before. Seems to be solid white, now have to sniff it out some more.

#5 9 years ago

Update...
Well, I didn't isolate the problem. The machine is acting sporadically. It restarted several times with one of the (jones?) plugs from the backbox unplugged. Then it started blowing fuses, but never getting to the restart, whenever I press the start button, poof goes the fuse.

It does not blow fuses with two of three plugged in on the backbox, but with that third plugged in it blows.

Any ideas?

#6 9 years ago

Without knowing the exact issue or what's on the plug it's hard to give good direction, but here is the first thing I would try.

If it only blows when the plug is plugged into the backbox then it is probably not the harness, but something from the backbox connection to somewhere in the backbox.

Get you multimeter and set it for continuity (buzz when shorted)

There are 2 commons, One for 6 volts and the other for 24 volts.

Connect one side of the meter to the common that is connecting all of the lights together and then touch the other end to each of the plug connections.

See if you get a short. If you get a tone then it's one of 2 things. It could be the actual wire that is the common or it's your problem.

You can always disconnect the wire and see if the fuse blows which tells you the definitive answer.

Now you have to start digging and trying to trace the color.

You then have to do it for the common on the 24v side. You can usually find it by looking for a common wire running between the coils of multiple switches. The same test and results apply here.

Couple other things about the 24v side. When checking continuity you will get a tone when going thru a coil.

You can narrow down if it's a coil or a true short by checking the resistance.

Coils will have varied resistance while a short will show zero.

Hope this helps.

Bert

#7 9 years ago

Thanks Bert...
in locating the Common.. my schematics are showing 2 colors on the 24v side, black/red and yellow. It seems like black is the one on all of the score reel coils, so I will start with that. It feels better to have a focus point in the troubleshooting. I have done a manual check on the score reel coils and they all do move at least. (I actually had them all apart and thoroughly cleaned.)

Moving ahead.
thanks again.

#8 9 years ago
Quoted from jjpm:

Have you checked the connectors to the plugs for a bridged connection? A piece of metal or stray solder could be causing the issue.
It could also be an internal crack in one of the wires.

Will check that tomorrow, going to get a DMM workout afterall!

#9 9 years ago

ok wow. I ran a quick-ish check and there is a LOT of beeping going on. I assume that any black or red wires are commons (since it shows black and red as common on the schematics) and I further assume that any combination of black and / or red are also common. That leaves me with a few non black or red wires to track down. I also am running on the assumption that any wires coming off the score coils qualify as ok also when they beep.

so... any more recommendations here.

#10 9 years ago

Have you actually checked all the coils? I seem to remember in another thread that you said you had a score reel solenoid that locked on.

You can't just look at it to tell if it's bad. You have to put the DMM on them.

If it's blowing on start up that is suspicious for a bad coil/solenoid.

#11 9 years ago

All of the score reel coils are functioning to my knowledge. They all move. (none were locked on, maybe dirty to the point of not moving smoothly--but that is fixed) I have only checked them for continuity... will be doing resistance checks soon.

#12 9 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

All of the score reel coils are functioning to my knowledge. They all move. (none were locked on, maybe dirty to the point of not moving smoothly--but that is fixed) I have only checked them for continuity... will be doing resistance checks soon.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/68-williams-cabaret-blowing-24v-fuse

This is where you said one score reel coil was buzzing and not moving.

A fried score reel coil would blow a fuse on start up because it's effectively a dead short. Resistance check is much more important than a continuity check.

#13 9 years ago

Duh, I do remember writing that. I didn't think it was the coil because it is moving freely (and easily by hand), am I mistaken?

Also, do you know what the resistance should be or where to find that info.

Thanks a bunch.

#14 9 years ago

OK,
checked ALL of the coils and relays, none of them are shorted out completely, but a couple are reading low, like 2 ohms... score reels are all 6+ ohms.

#15 9 years ago

one more note...
In a random continuity check, I discovered that at the fuse junction, the 6v "inserts" and the 24v "line" 15a leads are somehow connected... is this odd?
fuses2.jpgfuses2.jpg

#16 9 years ago

I think checking continuity throughout the game can be misleading as you have many make and break switches that change current path.

#17 9 years ago

Shorts are tough to find. Divide and conquer is usually my approach. That and a very through visual inspection usually finds the culprit.

Make a circuit breaker. It pays for itself in one use:
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Electrical_short_troubleshooting_Fuse_helper

In the past, I have even been tempted to de-solder strategic chunks of a circuit to find the short. I've probably had to track down 15-20 over the years. Invariably, I find it through a visual inspection.

#18 9 years ago
Quoted from AlexF:

I think checking continuity throughout the game can be misleading as you have many make and break switches that change current path.

That's what I was thinking... thanks

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from newmantjn:

Shorts are tough to find. Divide and conquer is usually my approach. That and a very through visual inspection usually finds the culprit.
Make a circuit breaker. It pays for itself in one use:
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Electrical_short_troubleshooting_Fuse_helper
In the past, I have even been tempted to de-solder strategic chunks of a circuit to find the short. I've probably had to track down 15-20 over the years. Invariably, I find it through a visual inspection.

Working on the circuit breaker already! Thanks... sounds like 'seek and you shall find' approach might be the winner here. Although I have been seeking more than I want to already. Tenacity sounds like the name of the game.

#20 9 years ago

ok, I have made an award winning video and posted it on YouTube here

This may shed some light on the subject. It may not. but I would love any words you may have..

#21 9 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

one more note...
In a random continuity check, I discovered that at the fuse junction, the 6v "inserts" and the 24v "line" 15a leads are somehow connected... is this odd?
fuses2.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

They all have the yellow wire in common.

#22 9 years ago

Your YouTube has be disabled by the owner for play back on other site. Your link does not work.

#23 9 years ago

I would starting from scratch here.
When you turn on the machine, the fuse stays intact?
So at what point does the fuse blow? Does the game reset, or does it blow before resetting is complete. Try and identify what is happening when the fuse blows.
Do all the score reels reset at the same time, or do 1 and 2 move together, then 3 and four?
Do you have a schematic for this game? I have others schematics for games of the same era, if you have a PDF version of the schematic, I would love a copy

#24 9 years ago

Found the YouTube, anyone wants to watch go to youtube and put this in the search "hO8KzlGZv_k".

Your youtube does answer some of my questions.

#25 9 years ago

wow that video, man it was hard to watch. that said you did some things right like removing the playfield. but this is what i would do.

1. turn the game on with fuse/breaker installed for the coil fuse.
2. go to the backbox.
3. reset the player unit (to player 1 which is the reset position.)
4. manually press the 1 pt relay. the reel should advance.
5. repeat with the 10 pt and 100 pt relays. again reels should advance. Keep pressing the 100 pt relay (when the 100 reel gets to "9", it should advance the thousand reel, which is what you want.)

if the coil fuse/breaker blows, then you have a score reel coil burnt/shorted.
if all the reels move, then advance the player unit one step (player2) and repeat steps 4 & 5. Do this for players 2,3 and 4.

note the 1 or 10 point relay should advance the match unit. this could also be a problem, and you'll know it as soon as that point relay tries to advance that stepper.

i suspect you'll find a problem doing this. report back.

#26 9 years ago

CFH,
will do all that tomorrow, and report back.
sorry about the video... but glad you found it..,
thanks a bunch.

#27 9 years ago
Quoted from Chrisbee:

Your YouTube has be disabled by the owner for play back on other site. Your link does not work.

sorry about that, video link works now...

#28 9 years ago
Quoted from Chrisbee:

I would starting from scratch here.
When you turn on the machine, the fuse stays intact?
So at what point does the fuse blow? Does the game reset, or does it blow before resetting is complete. Try and identify what is happening when the fuse blows.
Do all the score reels reset at the same time, or do 1 and 2 move together, then 3 and four?
Do you have a schematic for this game? I have others schematics for games of the same era, if you have a PDF version of the schematic, I would love a copy

I do have a schematic of the game, not PDFd but I can create one and post, or however is the best way of putting that one on.

#29 9 years ago

OK!!! I got the machine to reset and stand by for a game (pf not on yet).... I moved the credit wheel oh 5 or 6 credits down and she fired up. I switched it off, now nothing. Lights on the BG, but no reset.

(no blowing of the fuses either...)

any ideas?

#30 9 years ago

ok again...
I moved the start motor by hand a touch and it fired up again, resetting and back to what appears to be normal... but will only credit for 2 players... that sounds like another issue for another post. Still dont know what was throwing that fuse though...

#31 9 years ago

If you can scan the part of the schematic that has the start button (replay button), and post here. included the black and yellow wires (Top and middle). If you can scan the whole schematic, I will PM you an email address to send to. I will also upload to IPDB.

With the schematic we can quickly isolate the area. From your Vid above, I don't think you are getting anything to happen. I think the fault is in the bit of circuit I'm requesting above.

#32 9 years ago

Hey there Pinball Wizzards! I believe that I found the culprit, its kinda weird. On the replay unit there was a second limiting post that was killing the machine. (see photo) When I was getting the machine ready to run, I had spun the wheel past that point, I think putting some weird pressure on that switch. Extra post is off, and machine is resetting consistently with no fuse blowing. On with the Playfield!

Thanks to everybody. Will likely see you soon on one of my other 3 Williams EMs, and who knows, maybe one day I will become a real Pinball Wizzard myself!

replayreel.jpegreplayreel.jpeg

#33 9 years ago

Oh, I forgot. I can get you a PDF of those schematics easy peasy.

3 months later
#34 8 years ago

I believe the entire switch stack needs to be between the two posts, not with both posts on one side.

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#free

So I suspect what was happening is that the post was jamming the top switch stack (which is connected to each other) to the bottom switch stack and shorting the thing out. If the posts were in the correct position, they probably would not over travel like that. Note where the posts are in the above picture.

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