(Topic ID: 256472)

Need help troubleshooting a dead flipper problem in Police Force

By hiramcash

4 years ago


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  • 45 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by GRUMPY
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

Hello! Hoping for some help.

Just bought my first pinball machine and it is a lifelong dream come true!

I have a Williams Police force, and it looks like everything is working great except for the right side flipper, which looks like someone bought a kit but installed the wrong switch from what I can see. (see pic one and two) But flipper (and side button as well) does not engage at all, and am wondering if the wrong switch at the flipper can be the issue? I am getting nothing from the side button, no movement or anything and it all looks like it is wired correct (see third pic). Basically it is just a dead flipper. I did switch out the fuses behind the back glass and the left side still worked fine.

I have been playing for years and am super excited to get into the game and clean it up and refurbish, so any help would be appreciated. I have already watched all the you tube stuff on how to rebuild the flipper, but this all looks new except for the switch being wrong so I don't want to go tearing into it until i get another couple opinions.

Thanks for any ideas and help! Police Force #williams #flipperissues

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#2 4 years ago

Do you have a voltmeter?

#3 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Do you have a voltmeter?

I almost bought one today, not sure how to use it, but could get one tomorrow if you have some instructions, would be mucho appreciated!

#4 4 years ago

If your going to own a pinball machine your going to have to get a DMM. Easy to use. Let me know when you get yours. May I also suggest getting or making a jumper wire too.

https://www.amazon.com/Alligator-Clips-Heavy-Silicone-Jumper/dp/B07L29V4Z2/ref=sr_1_13

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

If your going to own a pinball machine your going to have to get a DMM. Easy to use. Let me know when you get yours. May I also suggest getting or making a jumper wire too.
amazon.com link »

So I picked up a DMM today. I also got some test leads and I believe that a wire in the machine is the previous test lead. Not sure where to start but i will be poking around today so any direction would be appreciated.
Thanks so much!

#6 4 years ago

Start by selecting DC volts on the meter. Take the black lead and stick it under the ground braid that runs all around the cabinet. Turn on the game. Take the red lead and check all 3 lugs of the flipper coil that isn't working. You should see @ 65-69 volts DC. You can compare it to the working flipper coil.

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Start by selecting DC volts on the meter. Take the black lead and stick it under the ground braid that runs all around the cabinet. Turn on the game. Take the red lead and check all 3 lugs of the flipper coil that isn't working. You should see @ 65-69 volts DC. You can compare it to the working flipper coil.

Both Coils all three posts measured at 76. Left one is working fine. Also, I soldered in the correct switch yesterday as the other switch didn't have the third piece like the other one that works. Pic one-New switch. Pic two-left side switch that works. Third Pic- both together.

policeforce4 (resized).jpgpoliceforce4 (resized).jpgpoliceforce6 (resized).jpgpoliceforce6 (resized).jpgpoliceforce5 (resized).jpgpoliceforce5 (resized).jpg
#8 4 years ago

Get the new switch and cap installed. Adjust the new switch and clean the contacts with some acetone. Retest flipper to see if you have fixed your issue.

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Get the new switch and cap installed. Adjust the new switch and clean the contacts with some acetone. Retest flipper to see if you have fixed your issue.

SO I lost the backing plate for the switch and since I was going to go to the one stronger flipper anyways, I ordered the whole right flipper assembly, soldered and installed. Nothing happening with the flipper. I did use my jump wire at my left flipper button switch and it activated the flipper, but not the right flipper button, so not sure where to go from here. Still got a dead flipper.

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

SO I lost the backing plate for the switch and since I was going to go to the one stronger flipper anyways, I ordered the whole right flipper assembly, soldered and installed. Nothing happening with the flipper. I did use my jump wire at my left flipper button switch and it activated the flipper, but not the right flipper button, so not sure where to go from here. Still got a dead flipper.

This morning I was putting in some new updated clear buttons, (I have been doing some work on the play-field and machine that is not mechanical while trying to figure out this electrical issue), and I had just done a bunch of OHM tests and was adjusting the new switch and when I touched the last leaf of the switch to the plunger while pressing the button and the flipper activated. SO I put a test lead on the last leaf and grounded it to the wire you told me to in the first post and the flipper would work when activated. (see picture) Weirdly, it would work even if the game wasnt in test mode or in a game mode when I pressed the flipper button but would work in test mode and game mode as well? So Not sure where to go from here. I played one game with both flippers with the jump lead grounded and everything else seemed to work fine. Help!!!! I'm almost there!!! Lol

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#11 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

Help!!!! I'm almost there!!! Lol

Yes you are close. I think you need to remove the inner connect board. I think there is a cracked solder joint on a header pin or the trace has been burnt off. You can confirm this with an ohm check of 2J-5 pin 5 to 2J-10 pin 7.

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Yes you are close. I think you need to remove the inner connect board. I think there is a cracked solder joint on a header pin or the trace has been burnt off. You can confirm this with an ohm check of 2J-5 pin 5 to 2J-10 pin 7.

SO in order to do that do I disconnect the wires going in to the J5 and J10 and then connect my negative to the ground and connect my red with a test lead to both the pin 5 and 7? And do I do this with the power on?

#13 4 years ago

When you check for continuity, resistance or ohms. No power. You will set DMM to the omega symbol. Then connects the leads to what you want to test, for example both leads of a resistor will read the ohms of the resistor.
The inner connect board is used to pass signals thru to multiply places at the same time. The orange/purple wire from the cabinet switch goes to the inner connect board at 2J-10 and thru the board and out 2J-5. If you measure from J-10 to J-5 there should be 1 ohm or less.

#14 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

When you check for continuity, resistance or ohms. No power. You will set DMM to the omega symbol. Then connects the leads to what you want to test, for example both leads of a resistor will read the ohms of the resistor.
The inner connect board is used to pass signals thru to multiply places at the same time. The orange/purple wire from the cabinet switch goes to the inner connect board at 2J-10 and thru the board and out 2J-5. If you measure from J-10 to J-5 there should be 1 ohm or less.

Thanks. So you mean the board it self right? So I am testing at the pins? Not the wires going to the pins correct? Thanks again fro all your help, i have already learned a ton.

#15 4 years ago

Yes test the pins on the board itself.

#16 4 years ago

here is some quick flipper theory.....the flipper coil is actually two coils.....the EOS switch is normally closed which bypasses the one coil and all the current flows through and has enough power to kick the flipper....when the flipper pawl comes to the end of its stroke, the EOS switch is opened creating basically a bigger coil that has more resistance and less current and holds the flipper up....this is done to prevent the coil from melting from too much current. common problems: the EOS is pitted or has weakened to the point that current can't pass though any more. if this happens the flipper won't energize. Another common problem is a broken wire on one pf the lugs of the flipper coil. Also compare the wiring to a good flipper to make sure something is not wired wrong. it is nice to have those big yellow cap thingees on the EOS switch as it suppresses the sparks and makes the switch last longer even though for a home game it may not be as important.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from Startek2:

here is some quick flipper theory.....the flipper coil is actually two coils.....the EOS switch is normally closed which bypasses the one coil and all the current flows through and has enough power to kick the flipper....when the flipper pawl comes to the end of its stroke, the EOS switch is opened creating basically a bigger coil that has more resistance and less current and holds the flipper up....this is done to prevent the coil from melting from too much current. common problems: the EOS is pitted or has weakened to the point that current can't pass though any more. if this happens the flipper won't energize. Another common problem is a broken wire on one pf the lugs of the flipper coil. Also compare the wiring to a good flipper to make sure something is not wired wrong. it is nice to have those big yellow cap thingees on the EOS switch as it suppresses the sparks and makes the switch last longer even though for a home game it may not be as important.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Yes test the pins on the board itself.

Ok so I have confirmed wiring correctly. I understand the EOS, I guess my only question is how do I know which pin number is which to test? Do I count left to right on the board? If that is the case the 2J-10 7 pin has no wire going to it. SO I guess I am confued about that. I can include a picture.

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

how do I know which pin number is which to test? Do I count left to right on the board? If that is the case the 2J-10 7 pin has no wire going to it. SO I guess I am confued about that.

I know it's hard to see with all of the wires going to this board, but they are marked on the board and in the manual.

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#20 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I know it's hard to see with all of the wires going to this board, but they are marked on the board and in the manual.[quoted image][quoted image]

Ok attatched is what came up, i adjusted between 2000k and 200 on the OHMs and no change stayed at the 1 the whole time, as you can see board looks pretty good. Anything else I should test here before putting back in?==EDIT--SEE POST AT BOTTOM, FOUND AN ISSUE
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#21 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

Ok attatched is what came up, i adjusted between 2000k and 200 on the OHMs and no change stayed at the 1 the whole time, as you can see board looks pretty good. Anything else I should test here before putting back in?[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

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#22 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

[quoted image]

ok, sorry looking closer on the front it does look like the one coming off the j55 is fried. So i guess this is the issue? If that is the case, can I do what they did on the back with the red wire fro the one on the back that was fried too? Basically solder a wire form the back of each?

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#23 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

So i guess this is the issue?

Bingo you found the issue.

Quoted from hiramcash:

Basically solder a wire form the back of each?

Yes. Double check that you have got the correct pins hooked together with the test meter before reinstalling it in the game.

The red wire was installed to fix the right flipper.

#24 4 years ago

Also make sure that F-5 and F-6 on the aux power supply have the correct size fuses installed so that this doesn't happen again.
2 Amp slow blow.

#25 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Also make sure that F-5 and F-6 on the aux power supply have the correct size fuses installed so that this doesn't happen again.
2 Amp slow blow.

Thanks so much for your help!!!! I am going to do this tomorrow and I will let you know what the result. Question. Since this red wire was done before, could it have caused this problem? Also, I am thinking that the fix they did to the other pins with the red is the way to go but have seen some online soldering and doing it direct to the board. Since I am new at this I am assuming I am safest doing the wire deal and not trying to solder direct to the board where it blew? Also, what gauge wire should I use? Thanks again, this really gave me insight on how everything works and after looking at schematics and all your help i am feeling way more confident to trace down some issues!!!!!!

#26 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

Thanks so much for your help!!!!

No problem.

Quoted from hiramcash:

Since this red wire was done before, could it have caused this problem?

No, but the same problem has happened to both sides. This is cause by a dead short. The short draws a lot of current. If the fuse is larger then recommended then the circuit board trace becomes the fuse. Extra care must taken when working on a machine with the power on. I only recommend it when necessary. Most of the time the cause is a oversized fuse with some sort of carelessness.

Quoted from hiramcash:

Since I am new at this I am assuming I am safest doing the wire deal and not trying to solder direct to the board where it blew?

Correct, just add an 18-22 gauge wire from the correct pins on the back. Everything will look good from the front after you reinstall it.

Quoted from hiramcash:

this really gave me insight on how everything works and after looking at schematics and all your help i am feeling way more confident to trace down some issues!!!!!!

Glad I could help.

#27 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

No problem.

No, but the same problem has happened to both sides. This is cause by a dead short. The short draws a lot of current. If the fuse is larger then recommended then the circuit board trace becomes the fuse. Extra care must taken when working on a machine with the power on. I only recommend it when necessary. Most of the time the cause is a oversized fuse with some sort of carelessness.

Correct, just add an 18-22 gauge wire from the correct pins on the back. Everything will look good from the front after you reinstall it.

Glad I could help.

Ok. I did it, installed it and it was working great for about an hour. Played off and on adjusting the flippers and switches. While playing a game the right flipper got weaker and weaker and finally wouldn't do anything. i smelled a plastic warm smell, not burning, but checked the board and solder held up and wire looked good. When I lifted up to try and adjust the flipper at the coil it wouldnt move in and out of the coil and the coil is super hot. Burned my finger. So question is, by me putting that one stronger flipper coil assembly in is that the cause or do i have another issue? UPDATe-Pulled out the Coil, as you can see it burned up inside and stopped the flipper...
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#28 4 years ago

double check proper eos operation.....coil might have been bad and that is why you had your original problem....i bet the coil was already shorted but worked (the trace blew out acting like a fuse)....

#29 4 years ago
Quoted from Startek2:

double check proper eos operation.....coil might have been bad and that is why you had your original problem....i bet the coil was already shorted but worked (the trace blew out acting like a fuse)....

Well, I just bought a WHOLE new flipper coil assembly already!!!!!!! Basically pulled out all the old, put the new in and soldered before i did all the work. So I am doubting it is that., but I put another new coil on and am waiting for any other ideas before i resolder and try again.

#30 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

Well, I just bought a WHOLE new flipper coil assembly already!!!!!!!

You will still have to adjust the EOS switch on a new assembly. Anytime you replace parts, make any repair or adjustment to any part of the flipper you need to double check the EOS.

Quoted from hiramcash:

but I put another new coil on and am waiting for any other ideas before i resolder and try again.

Solder it up as before, adjust the bat position then push on just the plunger (not the bat or link) to check the EOS switch. Let me know if this doesn't make sense.

#31 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

You will still have to adjust the EOS switch on a new assembly. Anytime you replace parts, make any repair or adjustment to any part of the flipper you need to double check the EOS.

Solder it up as before, adjust the bat position then push on just the plunger (not the bat or link) to check the EOS switch. Let me know if this doesn't make sense.

Actually yes I did that. upon further, after soldering I am back at square one. I did the DC test you told me first to do and now there is nothing on the right flipper, left tests same as it did in the beginning. I also did one at the flipper button/switch and got nothing as well on the right but left tested fine. Turns out it was the fuse. Any idea what is causing this? Just wron gadjustment on EOS switch? I did adjust it before

#32 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

Turns out it was the fuse.

Yes the fuse will burn when you over heat the coil.

Quoted from hiramcash:

Any idea what is causing this?

The EOS switch gap was a bit too small when open. Don't adjust with the power on. You may need to readjust this a number of times to get it just right, also only adjust the single blade side.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#33 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Yes the fuse will burn when you over heat the coil.

The EOS switch gap was a bit too small when open. Don't adjust with the power on. You may need to readjust this a number of times to get it just right, also only adjust the single blade side.[quoted image]

Thanks! I think I have it adjusted there now. Going to get some SLo Blo fuses tomorrow and will give it a nother run. Also, not sure if this matters, but the fuse was a 7amp on the Right flipper and cab says it is supposed to be a 2 so not sure if that would cause it to blow and burn the flipper too.

#34 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

but the fuse was a 7amp on the Right flipper

This is why the trace burned on the inner connect board and the coil melted. Having the correct size fuse saves you time and money.

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

This is why the trace burned on the inner connect board and the coil melted. Having the correct size fuse saves you time and money.

For sure. I should have confirmed it when i pulled them the first time and switched them to test. Thanks again for all your help!!!!!

#36 4 years ago

Hey Grumpy. Thanks a ton. Put my fuse in and adjusted the EOS switch. Played for about four hours off and on today adjusting and getting the flipper strength and everything adjusted. No issues. In playing I saw a couple other minor issues, The Jackpot display is not working, it has been this way from the beginning. Also the two drop targets Drug Rat and Diamond Weasel are intermittent. Sometimes they will pop back up and most of the time they wont, and when they do it is only after the game is over. Test wise seems to pop them up, so not sure but going to try and find this one on my own using the tests and tool and reading diagrams that you helped me with, but I might be posting again in a separate topic if I can't get them figured out!!!

#37 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

The Jackpot display is not working

Try reseating both ends of the ribbon cable on this display.

Quoted from hiramcash:

Also the two drop targets Drug Rat and Diamond Weasel are intermittent.

If the game doesn't know that all the drops are down, it wont reset them up. There is a circuit board that mounts to the drop target assembly. This board has opto sensors to read when the targets are down. Do a switch test to see which ones are not reading correctly. There is a header pin on the board that may have cracked solder joints. Example below. You can reflow the solder making them good as new.

cracked pins (resized).jpgcracked pins (resized).jpg
#38 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Try reseating both ends of the ribbon cable on this display.

If the game doesn't know that all the drops are down, it wont reset them up. There is a circuit board that mounts to the drop target assembly. This board has opto sensors to read when the targets are down. Do a switch test to see which ones are not reading correctly. There is a header pin on the board that may have cracked solder joints. Example below. You can reflow the solder making them good as new.[quoted image]

Took the board off. Looked good, but noticed a wire came off so spliced it back and put it in an fixed!!!! Must off got pulled off by the prop.

Board ribbon cables for the jackpot, I already reseated once, but did again and still no go.Any tests I can run there?

#39 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

Any tests I can run there?

It takes 5 things to make a display work. First you need digit strobes, second you need the number data. Now since the other 2 displays work correctly the data and strobes are fine. Next you need the correct voltage, both positive and negative. So check pin 2 and 12 on the display for DC volts. You will also need to have a good ribbon cable, connected correctly. If one end is reversed the display will not work. And lastly you need a good display, yours maybe outgassed and needs to be replaced.

dis (resized).PNGdis (resized).PNG
#40 4 years ago

Awesome. I will test it on Thursday when I get home. Thanks!!!

#41 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

It takes 5 things to make a display work. First you need digit strobes, second you need the number data. Now since the other 2 displays work correctly the data and strobes are fine. Next you need the correct voltage, both positive and negative. So check pin 2 and 12 on the display for DC volts. You will also need to have a good ribbon cable, connected correctly. If one end is reversed the display will not work. And lastly you need a good display, yours maybe outgassed and needs to be replaced.[quoted image]

So I am testing it at the pins and it is fluctuating between -0 and -4 in just waiting mode between games, when I start the game it stays at 3.95, so I assume that means the display itself is bad? Or can it be the ribbon cable?

#42 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

So I am testing it at the pins and it is fluctuating between -0 and -4 in just waiting mode between games, when I start the game it stays at 3.95, so I assume that means the display itself is bad? Or can it be the ribbon cable?

Did you get a negative voltage on pin 2? What did you get on pin 12?

#43 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Did you get a negative voltage on pin 2? What did you get on pin 12?

Sorry, I tested pin to pin the first time. I forgot you said the DC test to hook the negative to the ground. So I did that and both pins are a NEGATIVE 1

#44 4 years ago
Quoted from hiramcash:

Sorry, I tested pin to pin the first time. I forgot you said the DC test to hook the negative to the ground. So I did that and both pins are a NEGATIVE 1

Any ideas?

#45 4 years ago

You will need to disconnect the ribbon cable from the non working display, then probe the end of the ribbon cable for voltage. Your probe end maybe too large to fit into the ribbon cable holes, I have taken sewing pin and taped it to the probe end for this. Probe all holes in the cable, report back what you find.

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