(Topic ID: 286766)

Need Help!! System 11 Power Supply blows F1 F5 and F6 on power on

By JT-Pinball

9 months ago


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  • Latest reply 8 months ago by JT-Pinball
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#1 9 months ago

Hello everyone. I am trying to get a Road Kings up and running correctly. I re-capped the power supply and replaced three burnt connectors and now game immediately blows the E1 F5 and 6. This particular game is the bane of my existence! Last night it played fine so I anticipated a simple recap test power hook back up and off she goes... But.... here I am. I am also out of 7 am slow blow now so have some on order. Any thoughts.... ? Thanks everyone.

#2 9 months ago

as silly as the following sounds.....you did cut the legs off the caps....so they aren't touching the ground plane?

can only suggest, which you have probably done anyway, go over the capacitors and ensure they are in the correct way around.

unlikely if it was playing fine, but maybe BR1 has shorted internally?

#3 9 months ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

as silly as the following sounds.....you did cut the legs off the caps....so they aren't touching the ground plane?
can only suggest, which you have probably done anyway, go over the capacitors and ensure they are in the correct way around.
unlikely if it was playing fine, but maybe BR1 has shorted internally?

Thanks Rikoshay I did cut the legs off the caps and have looked to make sure they are in the correct way. I am thinking maybe a solder bridge that was is under a connector.... I going to do some more test this afternoon. I hope to find some fuses local. Ordered fuses wont be here till Monday. I was thinking that I shorted something to ground too but do not see anything obvious.

#4 9 months ago
Quoted from JT-Pinball:

Any thoughts.... ?

Remove the power supply, take good pics of the front and back.

#5 9 months ago
IMG_20210129_152527130 (resized).jpgIMG_20210129_152541232 (resized).jpg
#6 9 months ago

The 2 black connectors at the top of the board are installed backwards. Now I don't know if you installed the wires on backwards or not, but if you did it would account for the fuses burning.

#7 9 months ago

I zoomed in on the picture and can see that the cut header pins are reversed too. So this tells me you did connect the wires backwards. Remove the header pins and replace them with new.

#8 9 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I zoomed in on the picture and can see that the cut header pins are reversed too. So this tells me you did connect the wires backwards. Remove the header pins and replace them with new.

Thanks GRUMPY I see it now. I pulled them off and didn't check the key position the rest of the header were lock up. FML!

#9 9 months ago

I'm not sure if you have damaged other things by doing this, so after you get the headers reversed you need to only connect the large rectangle plug at the bottom of the power supply. Then turn on the power switch and then test the power supply for the correct voltages.

#10 9 months ago

I replaced the headers. I had the correct voltages before. But when I plunged in the connectors for the displays and the logic they were upside down because of the header being keyed backwards. So...the game boots up but immediately blows F1 so I have no displays. I assume this is because the power got reversed. Is there a I plugged the connector in wrong for System 11 games that says what I most likely need to fix to make the displays work? Thanks GRUMPY

#11 9 months ago

Well I also have no background music.

#12 9 months ago

Well, you can probably repair it but it would take some patience. I would honestly suggest buying a new power supply if you just want the game to work and repair this as an extra in your spare time.

#13 9 months ago

No, not for what you did. You need to leave off the smaller top connector and replace f-1. Then power up the game and see if f-1 blows now. If f-1 still blows with the smaller connector disconnected then you have a power supply problem. If it doesn't blow then you need to test the pins for the correct output. Let me know what you find.

#14 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

No, not for what you did. You need to leave off the smaller top connector and replace f-1. Then power up the game and see if f-1 blows now. If f-1 still blows with the smaller connector disconnected then you have a power supply problem. If it doesn't blow then you need to test the pins for the correct output. Let me know what you find.

Ok so I pulled the connector for the displays at 3J5 and fuse stay intact and I have -125 on pin 3 and +125 on pin 4 with 4.9 on pin 6. Those voltages on Pins 3 and 4 seem high, No? Guess this also means my issue is now with the display board? I guess swapping the +100 and - 100 didn't do good somewhere in the display chips.

#15 8 months ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Well, you can probably repair it but it would take some patience. I would honestly suggest buying a new power supply if you just want the game to work and repair this as an extra in your spare time.

LOL I mean I would not be opposed to just having a spare Williams System 11 Powers supply laying in the wait... This still will not fix the issues I created by not just laying the connector on the bench and then assuming the lock ramp faced down. Guess I could buy new displays and a background sound board too.

#16 8 months ago
Quoted from JT-Pinball:

Ok so I pulled the connector for the displays at 3J5 and fuse stay intact and I have -125 on pin 3 and +125 on pin 4 with 4.9 on

OK, so the high voltage is messed up. This is why I wanted you to test the voltage before connecting the displays up. Most likely the displays were damage anyway.

Now do you want to fix this power supply or not?

#17 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

OK, so the high voltage is messed up. This is why I wanted you to test the voltage before connecting the displays up. Most likely the displays were damage anyway.
Now do you want to fix this power supply or not?

Yes of course. I need to fix this game!!! I picked this up some Pincoder test roms and was supposed to trade to get a working driver board to fix my Tri-Zone. I wanted to have this done yesterday!!! Guess that wont happen.

I think I have all the parts to convert this to 91V. I guess first thing is to get the power supply to correct voltage then see what is wrong with / test displays??? Any thoughts on what I FXXked on the background sound board? Thanks GRUMPY

#18 8 months ago

I rebuilt the high voltage section on the power supply. Now on 3J5 I have -91 on pin 3 95 on pin 4 and 4.9 on pin 6.

#19 8 months ago
Quoted from JT-Pinball:

I rebuilt the high voltage section on the power supply. Now on 3J5 I have -91 on pin 3 95 on pin 4 and 4.9 on pin 6.

Sounds good.

Now if there is a short on the display driver, it might cause the repaired high voltage section of the power supply to be damaged again. So it can be a gamble to plug in the displays to test. Your call now.

#20 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Sounds good.
Now if there is a short on the display driver, it might cause the repaired high voltage section of the power supply to be damaged again. So it can be a gamble to plug in the displays to test. Your call now.

Well my luck does not work that way. I should have just tested the UND chips on the master display. I blew the -91V but +91 is still good. I have plenty of chips for that at least. I may have an old System 6 display I can pull parts for the master on this hopefully. From what I read that is the next step to test the UND chips? Is any one more likely to be fail from this than another? I can't be the first bone head to plug the connector in upside down in essence. Still have no background music.... Thanks GRUMPY

#21 8 months ago

UND chips aren't available anymore so I wouldn't rebuild the HV section again, I would just get a led display. Once you're up and running, with displays working we can test the sound board.

#22 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

UND chips aren't available anymore so I wouldn't rebuild the HV section again, I would just get a led display. Once you're up and running, with displays working we can test the sound board.

I see that. Looks like I can order some "knock offs" from China. I tested them all. The UDN 7180a all appear to be out side of the test limits. The 6118A all test in limits except one pin on all them. My understanding is that the 7180 are the - side and the 6118 are the +. This makes sense as to why the negative side of the power supply blows out. Wonder if the 6118 are bad too?? I may be able to either get the chips or get a new master display board that is good. Thanks GRUMPY! I hope that the sound board is not too fuxxed up.

#23 8 months ago
Quoted from JT-Pinball:

Looks like I can order some "knock offs" from China.

I have not had good luck when I used these knock offs chips so I stopped repairing display driver boards.

#24 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I have not had good luck when I used these knock offs chips so I stopped repairing display driver boards.

Yeah I have heard that. I have a few good pulls from a system 6 display that had one bad. I guess I could look for some old display and pull a few. Good news is that I got a different driver that all the UDN chips test good. Bad news is that when I plug it in all the displays are still blank. WTF!!! Shorted all the displays too? Guess I cant test that without pulling all the chips.

#25 8 months ago

Good news is the fuse holds now and I maintain my HV power.

#26 8 months ago

Well the displays are glowing. So my guess is the decoder or the PIA on the MPU? I probably have a PIA but not a decoder chip....

#27 8 months ago

SN74154N on order. It's a guess... But if the PIA was blown I bet the game would not boot and play....

#28 8 months ago

I pulled a 75154 from another board and tried it. Guess this could be bad too. Still no displays. I also unplugged the sound card. Now I have no sound. So sound issue seems to be connected to MPU not sound card. Could the issue with the displays be connected to the issue with the sound?

#29 8 months ago

So is the power supply all done and testing good? components changed and headers put in correctly?

maybe try one component at a time to get the displays back and check voltages as you go?

if replacing the 6821 PIA i'd personally socket it, and make sure it's in the correct way, notch wise.

and when testing the displays, just have one plugged in, only a suggestion.

on a side note, if you get fed up with the gas display issues and if your keen and competent with soldering maybe try a Wolffpac display Kit ?

#30 8 months ago
Quoted from JT-Pinball:

I also unplugged the sound card. Now I have no sound.

How did you test the sound board?

Quoted from JT-Pinball:

So sound issue seems to be connected to MPU not sound card. Could the issue with the displays be connected to the issue with the sound?

Yes, but I think the CPU would not be booting up then.

#31 8 months ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

So is the power supply all done and testing good? components changed and headers put in correctly?
maybe try one component at a time to get the displays back and check voltages as you go?
if replacing the 6821 PIA i'd personally socket it, and make sure it's in the correct way, notch wise.
and when testing the displays, just have one plugged in, only a suggestion.
on a side note, if you get fed up with the gas display issues and if your keen and competent with soldering maybe try a Wolffpac display Kit ?

Yes the power supply test good now. Headers are in the correct way! I cant be the only person ever to plug a connector in upside down in essence. All it would take is to repin without a lock ramp and turn over the connector. Yeah I should have just had the schematics there vs trying to work from reference late and night and after way too many doobies.

I ll try that approach with the displays. I don't think its the PIA but could be wrong. I don't think the game would boot if it was.

For as much as I don't want to spent a 160 extra dollars on this game the LED displays for this game.... My solder skills are top notch and I have all the right equipment. I would do it right now BUT only help me if the gas displays are all 100% shot and the display drive on the MPU is good. I don't have a spare game to test the MPU in or the spare Master display driver im using. I do have a spare system 11A MPU from a Pinbot. But is was damaged at one point. Not sure if its better than the one I have.

#32 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

How did you test the sound board?

Yes, but I think the CPU would not be booting up then.

I didn't test it . I just unplugged it. Now there is no sound as expected. After doing some reading it looks like all sound is processed on the MPU and then divided up between the MPU and the sound board. I was just trying to see if problem seemed to be the card or the MPU. I guess the card could still be damaged too. I really figure out if this master display driver is good somehow. All the UND chips test good!! That's a plus I guess! But guess there could be other issues on the card. I didn't think that any one of them could take out all the displays tho??
Thanks GRUMPY

#33 8 months ago
Quoted from JT-Pinball:

After doing some reading it looks like all sound is processed on the MPU and then divided up between the MPU and the sound board.

This is not true. The sound board makes only some sounds. The cpu makes some sounds and speech. Both of the sounds and speech pass thru the cpu and are combined together and then amplified and go to the speakers. If you want to test the cpu board by itself you need to remove the jumper from 1J16 and then remove the volume control connector from the sound board and install it to 1J16 of the cpu board. Then you can run a sound test, you will be missing some sounds but have some sounds and all speech sounds.

#34 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

This is not true. The sound board makes only some sounds. The cpu makes some sounds and speech. Both of the sounds and speech pass thru the cpu and are combined together and then amplified and go to the speakers. If you want to test the cpu board by itself you need to remove the jumper from 1J16 and then remove the volume control connector from the sound board and install it to 1J16 of the cpu board. Then you can run a sound test, you will be missing some sounds but have some sounds and all speech sounds.

Ok. Thanks GRUMPY So what is best way to figure out displays?? If the UND chips on the Master test good what else could take them all out and let the game still boot

#35 8 months ago
Quoted from JT-Pinball:

So what is best way to figure out displays??

You need to test with a logic probe the signals on J-22, J1,J2 and J3.

#36 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

You need to test with a logic probe the signals on J-22, J1,J2 and J3.

Ok! So on 1J1 and 1J2 all pins are High and pulsing. On 1J3 Pin1 Low, Pin 2, 3, 4 Low Pulsing, 5 High Pulsing, 7 Low Pulsing, 8 High Pulsing, 9 Low Pulsing, 10, 11 Low, 12 High. On 1J22 Pins 1 to 5 Low, 6 to 9 High, 10 no reading, 11to 18 Low, 19 to 21 High and 22 to 26 Low. Thanks GRUMPY

#37 8 months ago

I assume that the pin 10 on 1J22 having a no read is an issue??? I followed it in the schematic to U42 Pin7 that pin shows low. Not sure that makes a difference just made scene as a follow up...

#38 8 months ago

You have a issue with the blanking signal. You need to start with that first.

#39 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

You have a issue with the blanking signal. You need to start with that first.

Ok well I tested pin 4 of U51 its high and pulsing. I then followed that to pin3 of U43 its High. To my limited understanding the output from pin 3 on U43 is the blanking?? Correct?

#40 8 months ago
Quoted from JT-Pinball:

Ok well I tested pin 4 of U51 its high and pulsing.

I think you jumped to a different trace. These pulses goes to U-36 pin 13, this plays a part of the blanking signal tho.

Quoted from JT-Pinball:

To my limited understanding the output from pin 3 on U43 is the blanking?? Correct?

Correct, the pulses from U 51 reset U 43 which then the output pin 3 goes low. Q-50 might have been damaged from the voltage spike.

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#41 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I think you jumped to a different trace. These pulses goes to U-36 pin 13, this plays a part of the blanking signal tho.
[quoted image]

Jumped to a different trace? U36 pin 13 is High and pulsing.

Quoted from GRUMPY:

I think you jumped to a different trace. These pulses goes to U-36 pin 13, this plays a part of the blanking signal tho.

Correct, the pulses from U 51 reset U 43 which then the output pin 3 goes low. Q-50 might have been damaged from the voltage spike.
[quoted image]

Pulled the board and changed Q50 sill no displays. I didn't check all the display pins again.

#42 8 months ago

Well U 43 is High on Pin 3. I pulled the board again and looked ant the cap at C58. When I got it really zoomed in under magnification I could see that the cap was visably cracked. I relpaced it.

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