(Topic ID: 213107)

Need help pushing a Xenon over the finish line

By tomdrum

6 years ago


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#1 6 years ago

Getting really close to having my keeper Xenon at 100%. Bought a 2nd for a better cabinet. My 1st Xenon had an NOS PF I swapped in and it had issues after the swap before going in the different cabinet. It was my 1st swap and I definitely made some mistakes. I worked thru most, but have hit a brick wall with these 3:
1) All the lights on the PF stay on all the time. In attract mode the do cycle as they should but stay lit. You can see the slight diming as they spin thru each light on the lower Xenon inserts. Same in game play. Saw a previous post on this issue and I tried starting it with the J1 off the MPU and it was the same.
2) Spinner doesn't work. I replaced the switch from another PF and still nothing.
3) Left lane to flipper rollover doesn't register. It wired in series from the outlane switch, continuity is good. Installed another switch, still nothing.

Game is running Alltek MPU, SDB and lamp board. Issues were the same using OE boards. All .156 connector pins replaced as well as the .100 on the MPU J2 & J3.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

#2 6 years ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

1) All the lights on the PF stay on all the time. In attract mode the do cycle as they should but stay lit. You can see the slight diming as they spin thru each light on the lower Xenon inserts. Same in game play. Saw a previous post on this issue and I tried starting it with the J1 off the MPU and it was the same.

Disconnect J1 and J3 from the lamp board. Do all the playfield feature switched lamps still stay on? If yes, you've accidentally connected the common bare braid power wire running to the feature lamp bases across to the bare braid power wire running to the G.I.

Quoted from tomdrum:

2) Spinner doesn't work. I replaced the switch from another PF and still nothing.
3) Left lane to flipper rollover doesn't register. It wired in series from the outlane switch, continuity is good. Installed another switch, still nothing.

What indications are you getting from switch test mode for these switches?

#3 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Disconnect J1 and J3 from the lamp board. Do all the playfield feature switched lamps still stay on? If yes, you've accidentally connected the common bare braid power wire running to the feature lamp bases across to the bare braid power wire running to the G.I.

I did that and most GI lights are working, except a couple near the tube shot out hole which I believe light once a ball enters the tube. Owned one for 17 years but never paid attention to these 2 lights. I'd have to get Xenon #2 working to confirm. All feature lights are out now except those in front of the drop targets showing scoring level.

What indications are you getting from switch test mode for these switches?

On a switch test, no errors. Manually operating the missing switches does not cause a closed switch during test. Thanks for your help!

#4 6 years ago

I pulled the J1 & J3 from the lamp board of Xenon #2 and it also had all feature lights out except the same drop target lights.

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

I pulled the J1 and J3 from the lamp board of Xenon #2 and it also had all feature lights out except the same drop target lights

Is this the same machine you mentioned had all the feature lamps stuck on?

Quoted from tomdrum:

In attract mode the do cycle as they should but stay lit.

What exactly does this mean? They flash normally or they all stay lit?

Quoted from tomdrum:

On a switch test, no errors. Manually operating the missing switches does not cause a closed switch during test.

Can you raise all the drop targets and remove all balls from the machine. Then go into switch test mode and activate all switches one at a time starting from switch 40 down to switch 1 (as listed in the manual)?
Let us know any oddities you find, it will help to diagnose why those switches aren't working. Feel free to post pictures of the spinner and left flipper feed lane assemblies/wiring as pics will help too.

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Is this the same machine you mentioned had all the feature lamps stuck on?

No. The machine with the new PF is the one that all the feature lights stay lit, the other Xenon lights work correctly. I pulled the J1 & J3 from my 2nd Xenon to compare it with the 1st. They both are the same with the connectors off.

What exactly does this mean? They flash normally or they all stay lit?

The feature lights in the center of the PF will light individually in a circular motion normally when in attract mode. Mine stay light all the time. In attract mode you can see them dim slightly in the circular motion.

Can you raise all the drop targets and remove all balls from the machine. Then go into switch test mode and activate all switches one at a time starting from switch 40 down to switch 1 (as listed in the manual)?

All switches register except #30 flipper feed left, #26 30 point rebound (hadn't realized they weren't working) and #5 spinner.

Let us know any oddities you find, it will help to diagnose why those switches aren't working. Feel free to post pictures of the spinner and left flipper feed lane assemblies/wiring as pics will help too.

#7 6 years ago

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#8 6 years ago

Please post a video of the lights. Follow Quench suggestion. It sounds like the GI wiring is crossed to the Switched lamp bus somehow.

#9 6 years ago

The dual white-yellow wires on the outlane switch are on the wrong lug. Those dual wires should be on the side lug where you have the single white-yellow wire running to the inlane switch.

Can you post more angle pictures of the spinner switch? Looks like you might have the wires crossed over but I need to see the diode side of the wiring on that switch.

Post some pics of all the 30 point rebound switches if you can showing which wires are connected to the lugs including pics with the diode in view.

#10 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The dual white-yellow wires on the outlane switch are on the wrong lug. Those dual wires should be on the side lug where you have the single white-yellow wire running to the inlane switch.
Can you post more angle pictures of the spinner switch?

Good eyes! I fixed that and reversed the wiring on the spinner and both are now working. Any ideas on the lighting?

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

Any ideas on the lighting?

Can you tell me again what happens when you do what I mention in post #2? I'm only interested in what the problematic machine does when you remove those connectors. Sorry, mentioning how it should work and how the other machine behaves with the lamps have only confused me

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Can you tell me again what happens when you do what I mention in post #2? I'm only interested in what the problematic machine does when you remove those connectors. Sorry, mentioning how it should work and how the other machine behaves with the lamps have only confused me

With the connectors removed, the GI lights are lit and 4 of the 5 drop target completion lights.

#13 6 years ago

Those lamp driver board connectors are unrelated to the G.I. lights. Those connectors are for feature lamps that switch on and off.
I think you need to post pics showing the lighting you're having problems with.

#14 6 years ago

All the GI and feature light stay lit in attract mode and during game play.

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#15 6 years ago

What happens when you pull the connectors off the lamp driver board?

#16 6 years ago

Initially with the J1 & J3 removed, all GI's were lit and 4 of the drop target completion lights. I've been comparing the new PF I swapped with my 2nd working PF. I noticed a red wire near the top of the PF that wasn't attached in the same spot so I moved it to the original location based on the 2nd PF. Now I lost all GI lights. I've come to realize the "ground braid" is really the power source wire. My belief is that somewhere on the PF I connected the GI and feature light circuit. It's weird because it seems GI power braid also goes to feature lights as the power source and I assume the MPU controls the ground to light it as required. Finding the source of my issue seems overwhelming!

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

Finding the source of my issue seems overwhelming!

Take a deep breath
Coincidentally, I'm working on the lamp wiring on a friends Xenon playfield at the moment - it's at his house though.
The common bare braid wire running to the feature lamps is indeed power, not ground. You'll have to carefully follow it around the playfield to see if it's connected to any G.I lamps braid.
From memory this feature lamp power braid wire is connected to thick light blue wires only. I'll check it tomorrow.

#18 6 years ago

Yes, what you think is a ground braid is the Switched Illumination bus. Every switched lamp has this braid wire going to it. That wire is 6.3v DC. The only wire that should be connected to that bus is a Solid blue wire winch traces back to J1-5 on the power supply. The non switched lamps are the GI lights and they have a constant 6.3v AC on them. They are serviced by their own braid wires but are a separate circuit. If the switched lamps bus is shorted to the GI you will have this problem. You must study the switched lamp bus braid wire carefully and make sure it only has the #20 blue wire going to it and that it never crosses to one of the GI wires.

#19 6 years ago

Getting weirder. I studied my working PF and I found where I had crossed the GI and feature braided wire. Fixed that. Still the feature lights still stay lit and all the GI lights are out. Followed the braided wires 3X to make sure I didn't miss anything. I'm getting power at the blue wires for the feature lights. I assume the red and orange wires coming out the wiring loom are GI power. I'm getting no voltage at any of them. I check their location and all seem right.

#20 6 years ago

I pulled the J1 off the rectifier board in the cabinet to check continuity to the PF. The blue wire showed continuity to all the blue power spots to the playfield as well all featured light groups. I also checked it against all the GI braided wire, every GI light socket, all red and orange leads and nothing was shorted. I then checked the red and orange wires. They showed continuity to both the red and orange leads out of the harness and to GI sockets. The white J1 wire showed continuity to the GI playfield braid. Don't know where to go from here.

#21 6 years ago

Found another issue that just developed. After checking continuity I pin tested the red and orange leads out of the J1 off the rectifier board. Dead! Checked the F4 test point, nothing. This is new, I had tested every fuse and test point. Swapped in my other transformer & rectifier board. Now everything lights again, missing GI lights now work. The feature lights are still solidly lit in attract mode.

#22 6 years ago

Since this thread is getting long, here's a summary of the issue. The feature lights are always on except the ones by the tube shot kicker. Obviously I'm getting power from the GI circuit to the feature lamp circuit. I confirmed this by running continuity from the blue featured lamp wire at the top of the PF to the GI braid. On Xenon the GI circuit is only runs on the right side of the PF (behind drop targets), across the top under the upper plastics and to the 4 pop bumpers plus the sling shot lights (these aren't on the wire braid). I have looked this over carefully and the feature light braid and GI braid are not connected. On a continuity test the feature light blue wire is connected to all of the above. Any ideas are welcome!

#23 6 years ago

Feel like posting some pictures underneath the playfield showing as much of the lamp braids as you can?

BTW, have you done any work on the swing out wooden lamp/display board in the back box behind the backglass (i.e. reconnect any lamp sockets there?) Maybe that's where the short between the feature and G.I lamps is.

#24 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Feel like posting some pictures underneath the playfield showing as much of the lamp braids as you can?
BTW, have you done any work on the swing out wooden lamp/display board in the back box behind the backglass (i.e. reconnect any lamp sockets there?) Maybe that's where the short between the feature and G.I lamps is.

Great point. I did pull the inner infinity lighting frame out of the front frame to repaint it. I also repainted the display board but just unbolted the displays and moved them inboard and used a brush. I'll post more pictures.

#25 6 years ago

I disconnected the J2 off the lamp board which eliminated the backbox from being the problem. Since getting the GI lights working again, the feature lights which should be off are dimmer now then they were. In the pictures the blue tape is where the GI lights are located.

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#26 6 years ago

With the machine OFF, disconnect the playfield connector (J1) off the rectifier board.
Grab your multimeter and set it to Ohms Resistance mode.
Do you measure a short circuit (zero ohms) between the feature lamp power braid (thick blue wire) and any of the G.I. lamp power braids that have the thick Red or thick Orange wires?

You've got the braids touching some playfield nuts - see the 3 green circles below. Are the two nuts at the back of the playfield connected together by any metal on top of the playfield?

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#27 6 years ago

With J1 off the rectifier board none of the blue wires showed resistance with any orange or red GI wires in ohm setting. If the J1 is plugged in and I use continuity check between the blue and orange/red wires they are connected. In ohm mode there is resistance. Ironically I did notice the braid touching the 2 T-nuts on the bottom after posting these pictures. However I rerouted the braids around those nuts already and it didn't fix the problem. The upper one is to a playfield post and I removed the solder blob.

#28 6 years ago

If you power on the machine with the J1 playfield connector disconnected from the rectifier board, are all the switched feature lamps behind the backglass still stuck on?

If not, can you post some clear pictures of the J1 connector? Did you re-terminate that J1 connector by any chance?

Where does the thick blue power wire for the switched feature lamps end on the playfield? I see two down the back of the playfield, two on the yellow arrow lamp near the drop targets and what looks like two near the front of the playfield that goes to the credit indicator lamp. Somewhere the blue wire has to end with a single wire..

#29 6 years ago

With the J1 disconnected from the rectifier board the switched feature lamps are still lit, like "Tilt", "Game Over" etc. Nothing was done to the that connector. The blue power wire looks to end at close to the front to power the two bulbs that light the shooter gauge area.

#30 6 years ago

So the problem is not on the playfield.

This time, reconnect the J1 connector onto the rectifier board. There might be one or two floating rectangular connectors behind the backbox swingout light board that connects the backglass lights to the rectifier board. If yes, disconnect them and power up the machine.
Are all the switched feature playfield lamps still stuck on?

#31 6 years ago

Reconnected the rectifier J1, unplugged 3 hanging connectors to the backbox. When powered up none of the lamps in the display board lit. Featured lamps on PF still lit.

#32 6 years ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

When powered up none of the lamps in the display board lit.

How about the infinity lamps around the backglass? were they still stuck on, or not on at all?

This time, disconnect J1 off the AUX lamp board.
Any change?

Can you post some pictures of the back of lamp/display swinging wood board - including those 3 connectors you disconnected? Also one showing how the infinity lamps are connected.

#33 6 years ago

The infinity lights work fine. No change with the J1 off the aux lamp board (had tried that early on). This PF had the same issue when it was installed in a different cabinet, I believe it's somewhere on the PF. I did re-pin all the .156 connectors and the .100 on the MPU J2 & J3. None were re-pinned on the rectifier board.

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#34 6 years ago

Ah crap. Sorry man, I don't know what I was thinking about the feature lamp power and G.I lamp power lines being shorted. It has nothing to do with your problem.

For all the playfield lamps to be stuck on, something must be enabling all the SCRs on the lamp driver board.

Do you have a logic probe?

BTW, please confirm whether or not you have the same stuck on lamp issue with a normal Bally lamp driver board.
Also, please install the Bally lamp driver board, it will make it easier for me to tell you where to probe.

#35 6 years ago

At this point I recommend you disconnect everything and start at square 1 by getting just 1 lamp working. Pick a test lamp that should be flashing during attract mode.
First, unplug the backbox insert, power connector, lamp connectors, everything removing it completely from from the project.
Do the same for the cabinet. No lights on anywhere except for the playfield!
Next, find the blue wire coming from the power supply to the playfield. Unsolder that wire from the playfield cutting of power to every switched lamp.
Now isolate your test lamp(s) by severing any braid or wire that should be bringing the switched bus to it. It should be completely dead with no power to it at all. Just the switched connection from the lamp board.
Next, jumper the blue power wire to the test lamp and only the test lamp.
You should now have just one lamp powered and connected to the driver board. What happens?
If the test lamp flashes normal it's a wiring problem. Now expand your test adding on a few lamps at a time until you find where the problem is coming from.
If the test lamp is on solid with everything else disconnected you have a board problem.

#36 6 years ago
Quoted from BigAl56:

At this point I recommend you disconnect everything and start at square 1 by getting just 1 lamp working. Pick a test lamp that should be flashing during attract mode.
First, unplug the backbox insert, power connector, lamp connectors, everything removing it completely from from the project.
Do the same for the cabinet. No lights on anywhere except for the playfield!
Next, find the blue wire coming from the power supply to the playfield. Unsolder that wire from the playfield cutting of power to every switched lamp.
Now isolate your test lamp(s) by severing any braid or wire that should be bringing the switched bus to it. It should be completely dead with no power to it at all. Just the switched connection from the lamp board.
Next, jumper the blue power wire to the test lamp and only the test lamp.
You should now have just one lamp powered and connected to the driver board. What happens?
If the test lamp flashes normal it's a wiring problem. Now expand your test adding on a few lamps at a time until you find where the problem is coming from.
If the test lamp is on solid with everything else disconnected you have a board problem.

Should I leave the GI lights on in the PF?

#37 6 years ago

Unplugged back box and coin door. There are two blue power wire locations on this playfield. One at the top of the PF and the other just below the drop target assembly. I removed both from the power braid. Isolated a single feature lamp. It does stay light and then brightens in cycle. I powered it from both power spots, it's the same.

#38 6 years ago

If all feature lamps are always ON, then they are finding a path to ground somewhere. You need to find that path to ground and remove it.

Don't focus on lamp "power", focus on lamp "ground".

All feature and GI lamps should always have (DC on some 80's pinball games and newer) or AC voltage fed to them by design. Feature lamps only "light" when they are switched to make a connection with ground. Same concept with coils.

I feel like when you were in the process of swapping the play fields, you incorrectly connected the GI braid to some other part of the feature lamps "braid" that was not really "GI". Hence, all your feature lamps are on, just like GI is intended.

You see, GI always has a return path... that's why it's always on, unless a relay flashes it off by design briefly (as in some later Stern and Bally games).

GI voltage-return and feature lamp voltage-return are all four completely different paths/connections. See photo below of rectifier board in Xenon...

Just because it's braided under the play field, does not necessarily mean it's part of the "GI" circuit. Likewise, GI can have no braid at all. Sometimes at the factory they just used whatever wire they had lying around.

You could also have a socket wired incorrectly, making a connection that it should not. In other words, two lamps right next to each other, one GI and one feature, and you switched the GI return line with the feature lamp line. You see?

I agree with others suggestions to remove as much wiring/connectors as possible and try to determine why the feature lamp(s) are being grounded through your GI bus... Also, double check you fuses... surprised one has not blown with so many extra lamps being fed where they should not be fed.

You could also accomplish this by unplugging EVERYTHING on the play field and even removing it from the cabinet, and just use a 9V lantern battery to determine where your GI/feature lamps are crossing/shorted.

Only other place the short could exist is the feature lamps in the head. You unplugged it in the last post so that's not it.

Just curious, did you install LED bulbs in the entire game?

I ask because that could make troubleshooting it more difficult, depending on the voltage range/brand of LED that you used.

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#39 6 years ago

I am certain the GI and feature lamp braids are not connected. Xenon has few GI lights. 4 under the upper arch plastics which are in pairs. There are several behind the drop targets which are on a straight braid. There are 4 pop bumper bubs and 1 light on a braid. The slingshot lights are direct wired. I traced the braid a dozen times none of the GI braid is close to a feature light. I have 2 wired Xenon Pf's to refer to and I've used them to confirm all the braid routing.

With the feature light power removed from the PF and a single lamp removed from the braid with just ground attached, it still lit when given featured light power direct from the playfield loom.

After re-attaching the blue power wires to the featured lamp braid, now some of the featured lamps are off as they should be. The 3 under the woman's head work correctly in attract mode.

#40 6 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Just curious, did you install LED bulbs in the entire game?

Every bub is LED

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Ah crap. Sorry man, I don't know what I was thinking about the feature lamp power and G.I lamp power lines being shorted. It has nothing to do with your problem.
For all the playfield lamps to be stuck on, something must be enabling all the SCRs on the lamp driver board.
Do you have a logic probe?
BTW, please confirm whether or not you have the same stuck on lamp issue with a normal Bally lamp driver board.
Also, please install the Bally lamp driver board, it will make it easier for me to tell you where to probe.

Problem is the same with an OE board. Ordered a logic probe from Amazon.

#43 6 years ago

Can you do me a favor.
Grab a jumper wire. With a Bally lamp driver board installed, connect one end of the wire to TP2 (GND) on the lamp driver board. Connect the other end of the wire to the lower leg of resistor R75 on the lamp driver board. R75 is located near the top left of the board.

This jumper wire will stop the lamp board from switching on any feature lamps.
What result do you get from the switched feature lamps?

#44 6 years ago

If all feature lamps are always ON, then they are finding a path to a "return" rail somewhere. You need to find that path from the PF to the rectifier board in the lower cabinet and then remove it.

Quoted from tomdrum:

With the feature light power removed from the PF and a single lamp removed from the braid with just ground attached, it still lit when given featured light power direct from the playfield loom.

This sentence does not make any sense. Feature lamps do not have a common path to ground. EACH lamp is only lit WHEN the MPU+lamp driver board tells it to be on. Each feature lamp has a single wire for this ability to turn on/off. Each of those wires runs back to the lamp board. The other side of the feature lamp circuit is a daisy chained wire that contains only one piece of the circuit (the supply voltage in this case).

However, GI does share a common return path for BOTH sides of the circuit because the bulbs never need to individually switch off or on.

I would remove most or all of the LEDS from either the GI or feature sockets and see what happens connecting them one at a time. Maybe defective bulb or bulbs?

It's time to get the meter out and trace some wires on the play field. Something is connected where it should not be or you have defective LED bulbs. You are certain the problem is on the PF so find out where/how the feature lamps are lighting. I suppose you could have a pin in a harness wrong... I forgot if you mentioned that you repined any PF connectors at all. I thought no.

#45 6 years ago

Thanks Quench. I installed a Bally lamp board and figured I try it before grounding that lug. FIXED! I had a Bally lamp board in this cabinet at the start and it kept all the feature lights on. Early on I did have a feature power wire to GI power which was repaired. Why the Alltek kept the feature light on is a mystery. I'll install it in my 2nd Xenon to see how it operates. Only issue now is that it occasionally kicks out both ball at start. likely the trough switch. Game in play mode now:

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#46 6 years ago

Is this is a different Bally lamp board to the first Bally lamp board you had?

Anyway. Yeah, check the trough switch and make sure the switch wire lever doesn't occasionally get stuck in the slot of the ball guide.

#47 6 years ago

it's a different lamp board. The 1st one went into my second Xenon and it seems to work OK. It has a bunch of lamps out, but it looks to never had the PF shopped in it's life. Of the couple bulbs I pulled all were brass base #44.

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