(Topic ID: 288684)

EM Bingo shutter motor cycles twice from ball gate

By undrdog

9 months ago


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  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 months ago by undrdog
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You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider baldtwit.
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#4 9 months ago

take a look at the cam profile.

the A switch is the "carry-over" switch. It's job is to keep the motor running until the shuffle board is all the way open or all the way closed, so there should be two notches in the cam. Make sure the A switch opens reliably when it's in either notch.

also verify the gate relay is losing power somewhere along the way of the shuffle panel sliding closed. It needs to be unpowered before the panel is closed or the motor will keep going.

another possibility is the motor isn't stopping fast enough and coasts enough to close the A switch again. Some motors have the rotor/armature pop out of the gearbox when the power is removed so momentum doesn't turn the cams more.

the least likely possibility is someone took a bunch of stuff apart and the open vs. closed position of the shuffle panel is 180 degrees off what it should be wrt to the cams. I don't know what your pieces look like, but on a bally bingo if you remove a pinned arm off the shutter motor shaft, it's possible to install the arm wrong and the panel is open when it should be closed.

#6 9 months ago

can't really see the cam profiles in the pics, and don't know if the panel is open or closed. I'm guessing the panel is closed.

fwiw:

the cam closest to the motor is the A cam. If the switch on that cam is closed, the shuffle motor runs. If the gate relay or start relay is powered, the shuffle motor also runs. The A cam should have 2 notches ... one at panel fully open, one at fully closed.

here's probably the sequence when the shuffle panel is closed to reset the game:

1] close the coin switch, the start relay powers. With the panel closed, the cam B switch with the blue/red wire is closed, so the start relay stays powered.

that turns on the shuffle motor via the start relay switch (and more importantly, keeps the motor power on until after the A switch has closed), and another start relay switch causes the lock relay to power. The lock relay should stay powered forever unless the game is tilted or the power is turned off. If your lock relay is not working, then you should disable the switch on it that powers the gate relay, otherwise when the panel reaches full open the gate relay will power and keep the motor going. The side effect is if you turn the game on or tilt it with the panel open, it won't slide closed. That may effect something else, so you might need to fix the lock relay if it's not right.

2] shortly after the shuffle cams start turning, the A cam switch closes and now the motor is powered via two parallel/redundant circuits.

3] as the shuffle cams spin, the cam B switch opens and the start relay loses power. The motor keeps going because the A switch is closed.

4] when the panel reaches full open position, the A switch opens and the shuffle motor turns off.

the C switch should now be closed, so when the gate switch is triggered by the ball, the gate relay will power and turn on the shuffle motor to close the panel.

you should be able to manually turn the shuffle cams and see the switches doing their thing. If they are opening/closing as makes sense for the profile, then I'd guess the issue is gate relay powering when it shouldn't ... lock relay switch stuck closed, lock relay not working or the gate switch is stuck closed.

1 week later
#8 8 months ago

only the C cam profile can be seen from your pics. I assume it's something like the diagram below, but the B can notches may be shifted. Scribble any corrections and post a pic.

however, for your issue, the only thing that makes sense is the lock relay switch with wires 35 and 45 on the blades is not open when the lock relay is powered, or the lock relay is not staying powered.

once the game is cycled the first time after power on, the lock relay should power and stay powered until the game is tilted or turned off. That's why the lock relay coil usually looks a bit cooked and the paper wrapper - if it has one - usually looks charred.

timing-shutter (resized).png
#10 8 months ago

seems like your problem is the motor running when it shouldn't, rather than a poor switch contact making it not run when it should.

your shuffle panel OPENED when the gate switch was closed (closed = balls don't fall thru)? That's wrong. The gate switch should only do something when the panel is open ... it's the trigger to close it. If the gate relay powers when you close the gate switch when the panel is closed, then the cam c switch is stuck closed or the blades/wiring are shorted.

if the gate switch behavior above is just an oops and the gate switch doesn't do anything when the panel is closed, that leaves you with seeing what is powering the motor when it shouldn't be powered.

here's what I'd do:
1] double check the start relay and gate relay switches with the yellow and orange/green wires on the blades to make sure they open with a good gap and the blades/wiring aren't shorted together somehow

2] with the shuffle panel all the way closed or all the way open, the cam A switch should be open - stack is in a notch.

3] close the shuffle panel manually then turn on the game. The shuffle panel shouldn't do anything.

4] turn off the game and open the shuffle panel manually.

5] turn on the game. The shuffle panel should slide closed and stop

6] with the panel closed, watch the start relay and the gate relay while flicking the coin switch. The gate relay shouldn't do anything. The start relay should power. The lock relay should power and stay powered. The start relay should lose power while the panel is sliding open (cam b sw). The panel should stop when it's open.

7] flip the ball gate. The start relay shouldn't do anything, the gate relay should power, but lose power before the panel is done sliding closed (other cam b sw). The panel should stop when closed.

#12 8 months ago

it's a williams machine, but it does look like the same moto-research motor used on the early bally bingos and williams Long Beach bingo.

iir, the armature didn't pop out of the stator on those ... the mass of the shutter was enough to stop the motor dead when the power was cut off, but it's a great suggestion and worth a look.

one other sanity check is the cam c switch should be closed (stack in the notch) when the playfield is open. The playfield pics from your other post show a pretty similar setup to the bally bingos, so it may be possible to put the crank on the shuffle motor shaft backwards so the playfield state is 180 degrees off where it should be.

however, you game doesn't have "panel switches" operated by the shutter panel, so if your crank was backwards the panel should still slide 180 degrees at the right times ... the holes would just be open when they should be closed and vice/versa.

1 week later
#15 8 months ago

what is the gate relay doing after you close the gate switch?

can you take a video with the shutter, gate relay, and lock relay all in the frame and stick it on a cloud/file sharing site?

#17 8 months ago

you can stick a piece of paper between the cam 1 contacts. The motor should only run when the thing starting it is active. The shutter should stop partway in the rotation and you can manually rotate the cams to see if the motor turns back on before the fully open or closed position.

another thing to check is the switch blade tension to make sure the blades snap into the cam notches, none of the blades are cracked and flopping around, and the contact gaps are easy to see when the switch is open. If the contact gap is too small, arcs can jump the gap and keep the motor going. Too big a gap is easier to debug than too small a gap that intermittently closes.

#19 8 months ago

the cam notches are ramps on the "lift out side", right?

adjust the switches so they change when the switch is at least 3/4 of the way up the ramp. That'll allow the cam to overshoot a little due to momentum and/or the motor armature spinning down to a stop. i.e. the switch state should be the same with the stack in the bottom of the notch as well as most of the way up the ramp.

the cam switches only need to change state when the switch is out of the notch completely and riding the cam edge.

however, for a switch that closes when riding the cam edge, you want the contacts to touch a little before the stack is out of the notch so you get good "overtravel" when the moving blade pushes the stationary blade a bit after the contacts touch.

#21 8 months ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

If the switch is not killing the motor quickly enough, you can adjust the switch to open earlier in the cycle.

it sounds like his cam A carry-over switch is closing when it's in the notch.

I don't know how to say that it needs to stay open until it's almost out of the notch, but still have sufficient overtravel on the blades for good contact action.

I'm not sure I understand that previous sentence

#26 8 months ago

the switch closest to the motor is cam A. Notice that the top blade is never moving ... that means the blade below it that is following the cam is either not touching it or barely touching it.

you should be able to manually rotate the cams and when the A switch is climbing out of a notch, you can see the top blade deflect upward a little. That will solve your problem of getting the cams to rotate so the C stack is in the notch. The motor should never stop until the A switch is down in a notch.

when you closed the ball gate, the ball gate relay powered and stayed powered. That's wrong. It needs to unpower. It looks like the blades on the B stack are not moving with the follower.

what does that mean ...

the cam follower is the blade, U-shaped thing and wire that is riding on the cam edge. The switch blades that are moved by the follower blade need to move the same amount as the follower.

for example, on your B stack, the second blade from the top with the green dot is physically shoved by the cylinder lifter attached to the follower. However, when the follower goes down into the notch, a gap opens between the green dot blade and the cylinder. That's the problem.

bend the blade with the green dot down so it always stays in contact with the cylinder top. That will make the gap a lot bigger when the B stack is in the notch, will eliminate excessive arcing, and will let you adjust the top blade down a little so the green dot blade noticeably lifts it when the stack is coming out of the notch. You bend the blade where it enters the stack and you are creating down pressure.

same principle applies all the blades in all the stacks ... if the follower is moving the blade, it needs to stay in contact with the follower at all times - either directly or via the cylinder lifters. In other words, the blades all want to push the follower down, the cam forces them all up. Get to a notch and the blades the follower is lifting all snap down with the follower.

your shutter is not really closing all the way. That could just be a side effect of the playfield being upside down. That's why you get the excessive spring effect.

if that makes no sense, I can make a bad video

#29 8 months ago

if you operate the ball gate with your finger, does it work first time?

the difference with a ball doing it is the ball gate switch closes for a shorter period of time. Look and see if the cams are nudging around a little on the first ball, then the second ball makes them go far enough for the cam A switch to close.

if that seems to be the issue, when the shutter is open you should be able to push the gate relay armature on the coil top, let go quickly and the gate relay stays powered until a cam B switch opens. Does that happen?

another check is when you turn the game on with the shutter open, it should close.

#31 8 months ago

the last video was good, so if ya get stuck make another. Key thing to see is what the switches are doing. You can manually rotate the cams if ya want.

to see/adjust the B switches more easily, you may want to unscrew the C stack and move it out of the way. The stack will usually stay together, but if the bottom retaining wafer falls off, try and keep the rest of the pieces from coming apart ... tho you have enough pics/video to put it back together easily

#36 8 months ago

you may need to raise the playfield up on some wood so it's in it's normal laying down position but you can still see underneath. Something like a couple hunks of 2x12.

cams usually lift the switches a big distance compared to some relays, so it should not be very sensitive to gap adjust.

usually the only mechanical issue that still lets the shutter slide - besides trying it with the playfield tipped up on end - is when a switch blade is cracked and won't stay where you adjust it.

to adjust the blades, it's best to bend them too far then bend them back to where you want them ... that'll help overcome any "memory" the metal had of the original position.

if the motor runs continuously, could also be switches on the start relay or gate relay.

if you're back to square one, then the usual test sequence is:
1] with power on, manually rotate the cams so the A switch closes and opens/closes the shutter and stops. Do that a few times to check the A switch.
2] power off and shutter open, turn game on to see if the shutter closes and stops
3] shutter closed. turn game on and nothing should happen. Coin game and shutter should open and stop
4] shoot ball and shutter should close and stop

which of those fails determines where to look.

#40 8 months ago

note to self ... say this:

"to adjust the blades, it's best to bend them too far then bend them back to where you want them"

and then shut up until a result is posted?

were you originally bending the moving blade to adjust the gap instead of keeping the moving blade connected to the lifter and bending the stationary blade to adjust the switch?

1 week later
#44 7 months ago

the meters were typically in the coin door area or visible from the front of the game for the oddball cases where people scratched an area out of the backglass ink and mounted a meter so the everyone could see it.

a meter in the back would be a pita since you'd need to drag the machine out to get to it. 'course, since hi-hand didn't award replays, meters weren't really needed.

the piece of the schem you posted doesn't show a meter, so whoever added it could be counting whatever they liked. The normal thing would be as your said and connect it in parallel to the start relay so it counts the number of games played.

does the playfield only connect to the head, or is there a plug connection from the playfield directly to the cabinet?

#46 7 months ago

which problem was it?

if the game is temperature sensitive, then usually a switch is barely closing and expansion/contraction helps. Could also be a bad solder joint.

#49 7 months ago

the motor runs when one or more of three things happens:

1] cam A switch is closed
2] a start relay switch is closed
3] a gate relay switch is closed

the easiest thing is identify the switches for [2] and [3] using the wire colors on the schem, and if they look ok based on manually turning the cams, and those relays aren't powered when the shutter is nearing the cam A notches, then stick paper between the contacts to see which one is completing the circuit to the motor.

then figure out why

#52 7 months ago

if the switch stack is loose you'll have trouble. The screws are soft tho, so if you crank down too hard on them they will break.

if the switch blade is cracked or "overworked", it will slowly bend instead if springing back to where you adjust it to.

if the gap is too small when the switch is open, you can get intermittent arcing when it tries to open and that'll keep the motor going long enough to close the switch again.

if there's not enough blade tension down onto the cam, the stack doesn't fall all the way into the notch and the switch won't open enough. Too much blade tension is also a problem, tho less an issue on a cam driven switch since the motor has lots of torque ... unless the cam is clutch driven.

when the factory made the machine, they didn't have an army of switch adjuster gnomes tweaking everything. The wafers between the blades are sized so new straight blades with new contacts worked. Contact wear, wafers shrinking with age and some metal fatigue - especially on blades that are almost always held in a curved state - is where switch adjusting comes in to compensate for the wear-n-tear.

relays have their own issues. While there's a spring on the armature plate that helps pull the plate away from the coil top when the coil is unpowered, the moving switch blades also provide some lifting force. If you can't get enough blade travel to create a reasonable gap for an open switch, you usually have to bend moving blades to increase the distance the armature moves, then bend the stationary blades to make the switches work right.

you'll get used to it ... especially after messing with a gottlieb game as some of the gottlieb relays have smaller blade travel and the adjustment is more finicky.

generally speaking, if you can see a business card sized gap between the contacts when the switch is open, and the non-moving blade visibly gets shoved by the moving blade when the switch is closed, you're good for 90% of switches. There's some switch configurations where the non-moving blade will barely move ... if at all ... but you can typically see the moving blade stop after the contacts touch before other moving blades in the same stack are done.

#54 7 months ago

at least flipper fair doesn't have the decagon-style score reels and I don't think it has AG relays (you can't get parts for those anymore).

if you don't have a switch adjuster tool/kit, definitely get one when you order a rubber ring kit. Marco Specialties has a kit of 3 different adjuster shapes which is handy. A contact file for the high power tungsten contacts (flipper button switches, flipper coil EOS switches, etc.) is useful. A flexstone/plastone file is optional to clean switch contacts, but a contact file with a light touch works also unless the contacts are gold flashed.

if the two stepper units or the score reels aren't too sticky, it'll probably mostly work even after being turned off for years.

the main thing to watch/listen for when first running the game is solenoids sticking on (solenoids = coils with plungers). When those are held powered, smoke will eventually leak out. If that happens when you wandered off to top off your beverage, you may be needing your fire insurance

EM flippers are the exception since they almost always use high power to flip then switch to low power to hold the flipper up, so the plunger can be sucked into the coil indefinitely assuming the cutover to low power worked.

on most gottlieb's, the game won't completely reset until all score reels are zero, so the most common thing is ya plug it in, cycle it via the coin switch and the score motor stays running and no ball is ejected into the shooter lane.

how'd all this get into a bingo forum? I'm trying to avoid installing some flooring on some stairs ...

#56 7 months ago
Quoted from undrdog:

The arms that actuate the flipper switches were “fixed” with large wrappings of electrical tape. Not sure what is actually supposed to be there, but it works.

nothing was there. The metal arms hit the metal switch blades, but the flipper button was plastic so no shock potential. 'course, if gottlieb was worried about shocks, why did they tend to put a 120V switch on a metal coin door with only piece of paper between it and a metal button?

if the flipper buttons got replaced with metal ones, then someone of a more nervous disposition (or a pacemaker) probably prefers some insulation someplace. Fish paper on the switch stack would eventually wear thru. A layer or two of heat shrink tube on the arm would take care of it if you ran out of black tape.

if I paid someone to do the remodel work, the wife may start wondering if why she puts up with me

#59 7 months ago

maybe the metal button was different length and messed up the position/travel of the arm, so they did that instead of bending or remounting the flipper switches or bending the arm.

#62 7 months ago

turns out you can spend hours planning then it's too late to do the actual work.

hooking the meter to the same two wires as the start relay coil should work fine.

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