(Topic ID: 256971)

Need Help Atlantis Not Scoring Correctly


By MikeO

4 months ago



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  • 26 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 31 days ago by HowardR
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Atlantis E relay 2 (resized).jpg
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#1 4 months ago

This one has me stumped to no end. I've been chasing this all week.

This is a decent condition Atlantis I just acquired and have gone through from top to bottom. There were many common issues I encountered going though it. All the score reels needed some attention. The credit unit was maladjusted to institute free play, the ball in play unit would not advance reliably, etc. I even found a few more defects that needed fixing after I went through everything, each time thinking I may have found the issue.

Symptoms during 5 ball play.
1. Top center rollover will score 3000 and an advance when not lit. It isn't constant. Sometimes it will score only 500 like it is supposed to.
2, Left and right top rollover lanes score correctly when lit and when not lit.
3. Center stand up will score 3000 and an advance when not lit some times. This only happens when one is turned on and the lit target is rotating between the three targets.
4. Center stand up scores fine when none of the stand ups are lit for 3000 and advance.

Symptoms during 3 ball play.
1. Center lane scores only 500 whether lit or unlit.
2. Top and center stand up score 3000 and advance when not lit when standups are lit.
3. Stand up targets all score 500 correctly when none are lit for 3000 and advance.

Diagnostics I've been through.
1. Swapped working head from my keeper Atlantis and the problem stays with the new game.
2. Swapped working playfield from my keeper Atlantis and the problem stays with the new game.

I'm leaning towards testing the main relayboard of my keeper Atlantis in this new atlantis to see if any of the defects stay with the new head and playfield.

Next, assuming I can isolate the defects to the main relay board, is to put the two main relay boards together on a table and compare, wire by wire, any differences between them. It really feels like I may have stumbled on a game that came from the factory with defects, maybe a wire or two on the wrong tabs.

Here are a couple of shots of relevant parts of the schematics. The E relay is the 3000 and Advance score relay. The P relay is what lights and unlights the stand up targets.

Thanks for any advice.

IMG_9566 (resized).JPGIMG_9567 (resized).jpg
#2 4 months ago
Quoted from MikeO:

1. Top center rollover will score 3000 and an advance when not lit. It isn't constant. Sometimes it will score only 500 like it is supposed to.

The schematic shows that the top center rollover has two switches below it. One always fires the C/500 point (white drop targets) relay and the other sometimes fires the E/3000 point relay. The path to the E relay has two other switches in series after the top center rollover switch as shown in your schematic above. One Normally Closed (NC) switch at Score Motor 4E and another NC switch at Score Motor 3E (assuming 5 ball play).

I think the top score motor cam has just one long pin rising from it that reaches the E level switch stacks. Since there is just one long pin it can come to rest at any one of the three score motor index or home positions. So roughly 1/3 of the time the score motor opens the 4E switch when it stops, and another 1/3 of the time it opens the 3E switch when it stops. That means that the remaining 1/3 of the time the center top rollover switch should fire the E relay (because both score motor switches are closed) and score 3000 points instead of 500.

The way that's done is shown here from a bad copy of the schematic:
Atlantis C E relays (resized).jpg
When the top center rollover switches close the C relay fires which starts the score motor turning. The C relay also flips the Make/Break switch in the left red box. About 2/3 of the time the E relay does not fire so the five pulses generated by the score motor 1A switch follow the top path in this schematic to the M/100 point relay which awards 500 points. About 1/3 of the time the E relay also fires which flips the Make/Break switch in the right red box which in turn sends the five pulses from the score motor 1A switch towards the L/1000 point relay instead. Two of the five pulses from the 1A switch are blocked by the score motor 4C (?) and 1B (?) switches so only 3000 points are scored instead of 5000.

If your top center rollover is getting 3000 points most of the time I'd start by checking that the E relay fires reliably when score motor switches 4C and 1B are both closed and the Make/Break switch in the red box on the E relay.

/Mark

#3 4 months ago

Mark,

Thank you for this guidance.

Yes, the E level cam has one tall post and two short posts. I've been able to validate those switches are clean and set up properly.

I've also scrutinized, cleaned, and adjusted the E relay properly.

I will scrutinize the C relay, motor switches 1A, 1B, and 4C, and look for the proper firing of the E relay tonight and report back here.

Thanks again.

Mike

#4 4 months ago

Here is my progress.

I revisited the C relay, motor switches 1A, 1B, and 4C, and looked for the proper firing of the E relay. All are clean and set up properly.

For the top center lanes:
- The C relay properly pulls in in sync with the E relay when a lit lane is crossed.
- The top center lane still often scores 3000 when not lit.
- I can adjust the switches so that it only scores 500 all of the time but they seem out of proper alignment then.

For the stand up targets:
- The D relay properly pulls in in sync with the E relay when a lit target is hit.
- The center stand up target often scores 3000 when it is not lit for it. This only happens when a stand up is lit.
- Consistently the center target properly scores 500 when a stand up is not lit.

1A, 1B, and 4C are clean and set up properly regarding gap and wipe.

I have been able to follow proper set up and wipe of a switch as a competent guideline for years but, assuming this game is wired correctly, there is more going on at this time. It almost feels like the gap on an involved switch is off throwing off the timing. With the shared logic of the 3E and 4E switches, combined with the C, D, andE relays, it is a confusing circuit to follow, much less troubleshoot.

I put the playfield from my keeper Atlantis in the game as a reference. I'm not changing anything on it with the expectation that the issue lies in the main relay board. That is where my focus continues. My next step later this weekend is to do a detailed comparison of my working main relay board to the problematic relay board.

Again, any advice is appreciated.

#5 4 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

and the Make/Break switch in the red box on the E relay.

What about that switch? Many of your symptoms could be explained by that Make/Break switch not working properly.

Quoted from MikeO:

- I can adjust the switches so that it only scores 500 all of the time but they seem out of proper alignment then.

Which switches?

#6 4 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

What about that switch? Many of your symptoms could be explained by that Make/Break switch not working properly.

It ohms out properly.

Quoted from MarkG:

Which switches?

The top center rollover switches.

#7 4 months ago

Try blocking the bottom path in the schematic from reply #2 by putting a folded piece of paper between the contacts of either of the normally closed score motor (4C or 1B) switches. That should disable the 3000 point circuit by blocking any pulses from the score motor 1A switch from reaching the L/1000 point relay. Then see if you ever get an unwanted 3000 points instead of the expected 500 points. (Note that you won't get expected 3000 point awards either.)

If blocking that path prevents the error from happening that would indicate that the error is going through that path. I still suspect the Make/Break switch on the E relay but more experimentation should help clarify.

#8 4 months ago

So after comparing to my keeper Atlantis, I found the timing of the 4E switches was slightly different and adjusted the problem game to match the good game. It appears to have corrected the problem.

By timing I mean the alignment of the switch closures and openings as the E level cam pins are actuating them.

Thanks for the guidance. Knowing it was in this area helped a lot.

#9 4 months ago

Mark,

I spoke too soon. I play tested more this morning with no improvement to the condition.

I will block 4C or 1B and report back.

Mike

#10 4 months ago

Blocking 4C provides the following results.

For the top center rollover sometimes it scores 500 points when not lit and sometimes it scores an advance with no point. When lit it always scores an advance but no points.

For the center stand up it experiences the same issues where it will score an advance when another target is lit but no points.

None of the 3000 points score which I assume is expected.

#11 4 months ago

It sounds like the E relay always fires when you get the advance and 3000 points, is that right? That would imply that the E relay switches are doing what they should be doing, and that perhaps the E relay is firing when it shouldn't.

You show the schematic for the E relay in your original note. I noticed that there is an identical circuit that controls the lights:
Atlantis rollover lights (resized).jpg
These two circuits should behave identically, but I wonder if they differ when you see the problem.

The score motor comes to rest in one of three index positions. Because of the long pin on the upper cam described in reply #2 each of those three positions will put the switches in the circuit above in a different state:
- pin not against either 3E or 4E switch stacks - the circuit would be as drawn in the schematic
- pin against the 3E switch stack would flip the score motor 3E Make/Break switch
- pin against the 4E switch stack would flip the score motor 4E Make Break switch

I wonder if you always see the error when the score motor is in the same position. If you do it might point to a 3E or 4E switch as a problem.

Since the circuit you posted and the one I posted are the same but use different switches, it could be that they're getting out of sync. For example if the make/break switch at score motor 3E used by the E relay circuit, and the one used by the lamp circuit are somehow in different positions (like maybe a switch stack spacer is missing) then the lamps circuit might light the left rollover while the E relay circuit would award the center rollover.

So three things to check:
- Does the error always happen with the score motor in the same position?
- Do the make/break switches on the score motor 3E switch stack behave identically as the long pin passes by?
- Do the make/break switches on the score motor 4E switch stack behave identically as the long pin passes by?
(You might want to shut off the power and turn the motor by hand to see.)

#12 3 months ago

I spent more time with Atlantis last night with no improvement.

Lighting runs properly for all lanes and all stand ups. So that side of things is good.

This may be a stretch but what appears to be occurring is the game may think it is in 3 ball mode when the problems occur. So when the middle lane or middle target are scoring 3000 and an advance I'm getting the impression that that circuit thinks it is in 3 ball mode and a second path is active/lit for both the top lanes and the standup targets.

I have cleaned the 3 to 5 ball adjustment plug and socket and can't see where it can get into 3 ball mode in error for the scoring circuit.

Looking closer at the schematic it is almost as if the 4E switch is shorted both ways.

One question comes to mind regarding this schematic from the photo above. Why are the stand up targets represented by what almost looks like a make break switch? Is it possible for there to be a defect at the specific stand up target that could contribute to this problem?

#13 3 months ago
Quoted from MikeO:

Is it possible for there to be a defect at the specific stand up target that could contribute to this problem?

I thought you swapped playfields and the problem didn't change. If so, then the target switch isn't likely to be the problem.

Did you ever check the things I suggested in reply #11? It might be important to figure out if the Score Motor position affects the problem. If the problem only happens in one of the three Score Motor positions that might help narrow it down.

There are three Score Motor positions:
1) with the 3E and 4E Score Motor Make/Break switches inactive/as drawn in the schematic
2) with the 4E Score Motor Make/Break switch activated/flipped
3) with the 3E Score Motor Make/Break switch activated/flipped

Check to see if each of the values inside the two black boxes matches what your game is doing.
pasted_image (resized).png

#14 3 months ago

Mark,

Thank you for your patience.

I found tonight that on 5 ball the center lane would mis score when set up for the left lane to be lit for 3000, with 3E flipped.

Putting it in 3 ball mode I found that the left lane would mis score when 3E was flipped.

The mis scoring is not constant. There will be times where the two noted lanes will score properly. The rest of the lanes score properly all of the time.

I completed the chart and a copy is below.
52AE5EDF-ED34-436B-B59F-43373C9F5777 (resized).jpeg

#15 3 months ago

Assuming that the lights all match what's in the chart I think your problem is that part of the 3E Make/Break switch isn't opening reliably when the long Score Motor pin pushes in on the 3E switch stack:
Atlantis E relay 2 (resized).jpg
If the normally closed switch in the red box fails to open you'll see behavior that matches the table the way you filled it out.

Since the behavior is intermittent you'll want to examine that switch carefully, looking at the solder tabs, insulators, maybe even the screws. Somehow there's periodically a path through that open switch that shouldn't be there.

If you unplug your game you might be able to find the problem with your meter. Clip the probes onto the blue-white-red and slate-black wires on the 3E switch and put your meter on the lowest resistance setting. When the 3E stack isn't activated you should see resistance of an ohm or less. Then rotate the score motor by hand. When the pin activates the 3E stack the resistance should change to something much higher, probably even open circuit. Try that a few times.

If you can find a spot where the 3E stack is active but the resistance is still low, leave the motor there and poke around the switch to see if you can make the resistance jump up to the high value. That might give you a hint where the intermittent short is.

#16 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

If you unplug your game you might be able to find the problem with your meter. Clip the probes onto the blue-white-red and slate-black wires on the 3E switch and put your meter on the lowest resistance setting. When the 3E stack isn't activated you should see resistance of an ohm or less. Then rotate the score motor by hand. When the pin activates the 3E stack the resistance should change to something much higher, probably even open circuit. Try that a few times.

If you can find a spot where the 3E stack is active but the resistance is still low, leave the motor there and poke around the switch to see if you can make the resistance jump up to the high value. That might give you a hint where the intermittent short is.

I was thinking the same thing here and have been puzzled that this switch, visually, is setup properly. Adequate wipe when closed and visibly open when actuated. I actually tore the switch stack apart this morning, pulling the switch blades and spacers off the sleeves, to see if there was any kind of internal defect. I could see someone before me had tried adjusting blades here and deformed a few of the blades at their base. I straightened these while I had it apart and had to fine tune the whole stack again but that was straightforward. The same issues remain.

I've been wondering if I have a short somewhere in the harness that could possibly create this condition. I'll check resistance readings and report back here.

#17 3 months ago

Testing this switch I get full continuity or full open.

Any thoughts on the next step?

#18 3 months ago
Quoted from MikeO:

Testing this switch I get full continuity or full open.

Continuity isn't a reliable measurement in many EM circuits. Did you get an ohm of resistance or less?

I suppose the problem could be that there is an intermittent short between the blue-white-red wire and the slate-black wire that doesn't involve the 3E switch. The short would only be apparent when the 3E switch is active or flipped.

To test that theory you could desolder the slate-black wire from the Score Motor 3E switch. With the wire removed the two positions you marked as incorrect in the table in reply #14 should always score 500 points. If they ever score 3000 points, the intermittent short is not in the switch but somewhere else.

Note that a couple other positions in the table will fail to score 3000 points with the wire removed, but it's really only the two positions that were getting 3000 points when they shouldn't that are interesting.

#19 3 months ago

I desoldered the slate-black wire and the 3000 scoring went away for center and right lane. I assume this is the same as when I blocked this 3E switch with paper previously.

Here is where it gets weirder. For the standups when lit, the center target will often score 3000 when the upper target is lit. The weird part is that the center target scores one 100 and two 1000 sometimes when the lower target is lit for a total of 2100.

I think I need an exorcist.

#20 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Continuity isn't a reliable measurement in many EM circuits. Did you get an ohm of resistance or less?

I may not be interpreting your request correctly here. My meter has settings where the lowest range is 200 ohms. This also happens to be the setting it uses for continuity checks. So when the switch is open it reads a "1". When it is closed it reads 0.3 or 0.4.

I have another cheapy Radio Shack self ranging digital multimeter that has a setting separate from Ohms for continuity. I will retest the switch with it for resistance and see if I get different readings.

#21 3 months ago
Quoted from MikeO:

I desoldered the slate-black wire and the 3000 scoring went away for center and right lane. I assume this is the same as when I blocked this 3E switch with paper previously.

That's more evidence that the path with the intermittent short goes through the normally closed side of that 3E make/break switch.

Quoted from MikeO:

For the standups when lit, the center target will often score 3000 when the upper target is lit.

That too points to the 3E switch.

Quoted from MikeO:

The weird part is that the center target scores one 100 and two 1000 sometimes when the lower target is hit for a total of 2100.

I don't follow this. The center target sometimes scores 2100 when the lower target is lit (not hit)?

Quoted from MikeO:

So when the switch is open it reads a "1". When it is closed it reads 0.3 or 0.4.

That's fine. Putting the meter on the lowest resistance range makes it more sensitive to small values. The problem is that meters can beep for continuity when the resistance is anything up to 20-30 ohms. So what can happen is that the meter beeps because it sees a path through a coil or the transformer (at maybe 10-15 ohms) and the user assumes that it's beeping because the switch is closed (which should be less than an ohm). Without checking the resistance you can't know which path the meter is beeping about.

#22 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I don't follow this. The center target sometimes scores 2100 when the lower target is lit (not hit)?

Yes, I mistyped that. At least my phone mistyped it. It should read lit, not hit. When the lower stand up target was lit, the center stand up target would sometimes score a single 100 and then two 1000s for a total of 2100 points.

#23 3 months ago
Quoted from MikeO:

When the lower stand up target was lit, the center stand up target would sometimes score a single 100 and then two 1000s for a total of 2100 points.

When the lower/right target is lit, does the center rollover show the same problem as the center target? They're in the same circuit except for an extra switch on the P relay for the target compared to the rollover.

Either way, it sounds like the game starts scoring 500 points (C or D relay fires) and after the first 100 point pulse the E relay fires late to change the 500 point award into a 3000 point award. Can you verify that the E relay fires later than the C or D relay in these cases?

2 months later
#24 31 days ago

I'm writing to follow up with the solution that evolved to correct the condition I had.

Recently I was able to enlist the help of an old timer here and he enlightened me to the need for the timing between the 3E switch staying engaged until the score motor run switch deactivated. We adjusted the actuator leaf at 3E to stay engaged longer and that appears to have addressed the issue. Definitely an odd nuance that surfaced even though the discrete set up nature of the involved switches appeared correct.

Thank you, Mark, for your help on this issue.

#25 31 days ago

I think my Atlantis does this sometimes. I may try this adjustment. Is the score motor run switch a switch on 1C? Or which switch are you referring to?

Quoted from MikeO:

I'm writing to follow up with the solution that evolved to correct the condition I had.
Recently I was able to enlist the help of an old timer here and he enlightened me to the need for the timing between the 3E switch staying engaged until the score motor run switch deactivated. We adjusted the actuator leaf at 3E to stay engaged longer and that appears to have addressed the issue. Definitely an odd nuance that surfaced even though the discrete set up nature of the involved switches appeared correct.
Thank you, Mark, for your help on this issue.

#26 31 days ago
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