(Topic ID: 156549)

Need a little help with Bally startup sequence (1966 Gold Rush)


By drsfmd

4 years ago



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#1 4 years ago

My Gold Rush has suddenly stopped working, and I'm a little stumped as to why.

What's happening: Game is set to free play via a rewiring of the coin return button to be a start button (I've never seen another one does this way, but it's worked for the 45+ years that the machine has been in my family). When I push the start button, it initiates startup sequence, and will reset the score reels, then stop and turn off. A video is below.

If the score reels are zeroed, and I push the start button again, it will sometimes add score to the ones or tens reel, and if I push the start button again, it will zero those reels out. A video is below.

I have a schematic (there's no manual available for this machine), but I can't figure out why it the machine would shut off like this. I found this thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-1964-startup-sequence#post-1350163) that discussed the startup sequence of a 1964 Bally machine-- can I assume that this applies to my machine as well? If so, it makes it up to at least "The reset relay, through the score motor, will reset the stepper units (zero the ball count and player units)." I can't say for sure if the next step ("The coin relay, through the score motor, will decrement the credit unit.") applies or not, as it's a single player, "add-a-ball" version that doesn't record more than 1 credit (but the add-a-ball stepper does decrement).

Stumped... any guesses would be welcome.

#2 4 years ago

is it blowing a fuse or does it have a hold relay that is dropping out. videos of the mech board may help to see whats happening.

#3 4 years ago

It's not blowing any fuses. I can't tell if a hold relay drops out because the entire power dies-- but will fire back up if I push the start button again.

#4 4 years ago

Hi drsfmd
great, You have a schema.Your words "Add-a-Ball-Stepper" - are they from the schema / tag on a unit in the pin / Your invention ? You write "Add-a-Ball-Version" - the manufacturers made "Novelty games - No reward at all (A)" / "TRUE Add-a-Ball pins (B)" / "Add-a-Ball-mode pins = Add-a-Ball-Model (C)" / "Replay pins (D)".
Type-A pins can be either a "B" or a "C" or a "D" pin - with a Jones-Plug to be set at different positions to make the pin an Type-A pin.
Type-D and Type-C are the same pin - with a Jones-Plug. Type-D: You can make "Replays" with the Score-Reels (((maybe, besides of replays: You may get a single Extraball during play))) / Type-C: The Jones-Plug is moved - You do not get a replay - You do only get an Extraball (instead).

So, is Your pin "Type-B" or "Type-C/D" ? We can see it in the Backglass -> Type-B: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1376&picno=25359&zoom=1 -> on the bottom of the picture the text "Balls to Play". Another one: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1119&picno=9129&zoom=1 -> text "Added Balls".
"Type-C/D": http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=201&picno=7445&zoom=1 -> text "Ball in Play". And the flyer: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=201&picno=3860 tells us (convertible to) Add-a-Ball-Model. BUT - the confusing thing -> http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=201 -> "Notes:" -> An "True Add-a-Ball Version (Type-B) was made for export to Italy" ...
Please write what Type of pin You have.

"Rewired Coin-Return-Button": I know of people adding a micro-switch at the coin-door, pushing the Return-Button closes this added switch -> circuitry is closed - the same circuitry that a "coin thrown in" closes. Is Your modification of this type ?

Start-up sequence here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-1964-startup-sequence#post-1350163 - in post-2 "Pin-it" says "Yes, the pinrepair-description of Bally-70ies applies to earlier models" - I do not know - I would like to look-up in the schema (Your schema).

Your description and the video: You start a game -> Reset is done (Score-Reels): GREAT - then turns-off (not so great).
I look at the ipdb-schema "Bazaar": http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=201 - DANGER: Replay-Relay (and many other stuff) is driven by 110 VAC Line-Voltage -> whenever You just look or do some work: UNPLUG THE LINE-CORD ! ONLY plug-in for testing a specific test.

In the schema Bazaar -> near the transformer / near encircled (1): I see a switch named "Left Flipper Button" - means: When main-power-cord-110-VAC is plugged-in --- but no lights -> You push the left flipper-button -> Lights will light-up. Question: In Your pin ?
In the schema just next to "Left Flipper-Button" is "(Switch on) Hold-Relay" and at "E-10" I see the Coil of "Hold-Relay" and the circuitry has two Normally-Closed-Switches: "Bounce" and "Shut-off".

drsfmd, please look for a "Hold-Relay" (maybe named "Lock-Relay") -> when You push the left-Flipper-Button -> does it move ? It should lock-in (pulling forever).
Also: When starting a game -> "Hold-Relay" -> should lock-in.

If "No Luck": We must dig-in deeper. Greetings Rolf

#5 4 years ago

Not having a schematic for your machine makes life harder. Looking at other 1966 machines, some have anti cheat REs SWs on the lighting circuit, some don’t.

Watching your video, it is obvious that all lights are turning off, so I’m expecting that your machine does have switches for the general illumination on the anti-cheat relay. Check that the anti-cheat RE is energising and staying energised. Check your schematic is similar to the one below.

help_(resized).jpg

#6 4 years ago

Rolf-

Thanks for taking the time to compose this response.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi drsfmd
great, You have a schema.Your words "Add-a-Ball-Stepper" - are they from the schema / tag on a unit in the pin / Your invention ? You write "Add-a-Ball-Version" - the manufacturers made "Novelty games - No reward at all (A)" / "TRUE Add-a-Ball pins (B)" / "Add-a-Ball-mode pins = Add-a-Ball-Model (C)" / "Replay pins (D)".
Type-A pins can be either a "B" or a "C" or a "D" pin - with a Jones-Plug to be set at different positions to make the pin an Type-A pin.
Type-D and Type-C are the same pin - with a Jones-Plug. Type-D: You can make "Replays" with the Score-Reels (((maybe, besides of replays: You may get a single Extraball during play))) / Type-C: The Jones-Plug is moved - You do not get a replay - You do only get an Extraball (instead).
So, is Your pin "Type-B" or "Type-C/D" ? We can see it in the Backglass -> Type-B: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1376&picno=25359&zoom=1 -> on the bottom of the picture the text "Balls to Play". Another one: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1119&picno=9129&zoom=1 -> text "Added Balls".
"Type-C/D": http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=201&picno=7445&zoom=1 -> text "Ball in Play". And the flyer: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=201&picno=3860 tells us (convertible to) Add-a-Ball-Model. BUT - the confusing thing -> http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=201 -> "Notes:" -> An "True Add-a-Ball Version (Type-B) was made for export to Italy" ...
Please write what Type of pin You have.

I believe that it's a true add-a-ball. The machine has spent its whole life in New York State. My understanding is that machines sold in NY couldn't have replay features, and the AAB was the way around it. I don't know if there is more than one version of the backglass or not, but along the bottom on mine it will show the number of extra balls the player has earned (one extra ball per 1000 points scored). There's a stepper with 7 positions (meaning you can carry up to 7 extra balls at once) in the backbox. Mine does not have the credit reel as pictured in the IPDB photos (http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1035&picno=21357) - and no spot nor a "window" in the backglass.... so I think I just answered my own question that there's more than one backglass -- in fact, all of the ipdb photos show a credit "window" in the middle of the mountain-- mine doesn't have that-- you can see my video as evidence). In place of that credit reel is the unit that determines the number of extra balls you have. I should probably call Steve Young and see if he has an add-a-ball specific schematic, as mine shows the credit unit.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

"Rewired Coin-Return-Button": I know of people adding a micro-switch at the coin-door, pushing the Return-Button closes this added switch -> circuitry is closed - the same circuitry that a "coin thrown in" closes. Is Your modification of this type ?

That's exactly what it is.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Start-up sequence here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-1964-startup-sequence#post-1350163 - in post-2 "Pin-it" says "Yes, the pinrepair-description of Bally-70ies applies to earlier models" - I do not know - I would like to look-up in the schema (Your schema).

Yes, this is the same post I cited in my OP. As noted above, there's no unit to decrement the credits.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Your description and the video: You start a game -> Reset is done (Score-Reels): GREAT - then turns-off (not so great).
I look at the ipdb-schema "Bazaar": http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=201 - DANGER: Replay-Relay (and many other stuff) is driven by 110 VAC Line-Voltage -> whenever You just look or do some work: UNPLUG THE LINE-CORD ! ONLY plug-in for testing a specific test.
In the schema Bazaar -> near the transformer / near encircled (1): I see a switch named "Left Flipper Button" - means: When main-power-cord-110-VAC is plugged-in --- but no lights -> You push the left flipper-button -> Lights will light-up. Question: In Your pin ?
In the schema just next to "Left Flipper-Button" is "(Switch on) Hold-Relay" and at "E-10" I see the Coil of "Hold-Relay" and the circuitry has two Normally-Closed-Switches: "Bounce" and "Shut-off".
drsfmd, please look for a "Hold-Relay" (maybe named "Lock-Relay") -> when You push the left-Flipper-Button -> does it move ? It should lock-in (pulling forever).
Also: When starting a game -> "Hold-Relay" -> should lock-in.

If "No Luck": We must dig-in deeper. Greetings Rolf

Two points here...

The "left flipper button" notation exists on my schematic, and the left flipper button on the machine has an extra set of switches that the right doesn't have. However, I don't think the GI has EVER lit up from pushing that button. Only starting a game (as in my video) turns on the GI. It will then stay on until the machine is turned off or unplugged.

The "Hold" relay does pull in, and remains in until the power is cut... so it's only on for a few seconds.

Quoted from Chrisbee:

Not having a schematic for your machine makes life harder. Looking at other 1966 machines, some have anti cheat REs SWs on the lighting circuit, some don’t.
Watching your video, it is obvious that all lights are turning off, so I’m expecting that your machine does have switches for the general illumination on the anti-cheat relay. Check that the anti-cheat RE is energising and staying energised. Check your schematic is similar to the one below.
help_(resized).jpg

You might be on to something here... I'll take photos of that section of the schematic, and check that switch when I get home. I do want to point out though-- it's not just that the GI turns off... the whole machine turns off. Would the anti-cheat switch be likely to cause that?

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

it's not just that the GI turns off... the whole machine turns off. Would the anti-cheat switch be likely to cause that?

Yep, it would.

#8 4 years ago

Hi drsfmd, Chrisbee +
Through the years Williams always used the name "Lock-Relay". Bally used "Hold-Relay (example Bazaar)", used "Anti-Cheat-Relay (example Capersville)", used "Lock-Relay (example Amigo)". These Relays mainly are used to keep the pin lighted - as "when the pin is turned-on (varios possibilities to do so): The Relay pulls forever and so lets the lights shine". Bally also used these relays for "Massive Tilt Punishment" --- if an unfriendly user heavily beats the machine -> the relay lets go -> effect: As if somebody else unplugged the main-power-cord -> OFF - EVERYTHING.
It depends on the model (Year) and the definition "what is turned-off" - Bazaar: Truely turned-off (110-VAC-Powerline is cut), Capersville: The Transformer slumbers - there is NO consumer on the 50-VAC- and 6VAC-Side - BUT the transformer still has 110-VAC-connection, Amigo: The transformer has VERY little to do -> it produces a little bit of 6-VAC-electricity to feed the Coin-Door-Illumination.
drsfmd: we are eager to see a snippet of schema showing the "110-VAC-Side (wiring) of "Gold-Rush" and a snippet of schema showing the wiring "feeding electricity to 6-VAC- and 50-Vac-consumers (and about Hold- / Anti-Cheat- / Lock-Relay).

Your answers in post-6 are very interesting: Yes, the Right-Flipperbutton has ONE switch - the Left-Flipperbutton has TWO switches - but no effect on "turning-on the pin" maybe some preowner did not want this feature and simply cut the a wire / a wire has broken-off somewhere (?).
THE HOLD-RELAY PULLS IN (starting a game) BUT AFTER A FEW SECONDS LETS GO: This is the error / fault - it should pull - establish "Self-Hold-Circuitry" - pull forever.
We wait for a snippet of schema "Hold-Relay-Coil and surrounding.
I show a snippet of schema Bazaar: encircled light-green: You push the left Flipper-Button -> through "not-open-Tiltswitches" -> Hold-Relay gets active, pulls, closes "encircled dark-green - the +/- Self-Hold-Switch" -> establishes 110 VAC forever and therefore also 50 VAC forever and therefore the Hold-Relay can pull forever.

Or You push the (encircled rosa) Replay-Button -> Replay-Relay gets active -> closes (encircled dark-red) a switch -> transformer is feeded -> 50 VAC is feeded -> Hold-Relay pulls in and establishes "110 VAC forever" ... Greetings Rolf

dBazaar2-Work_(resized).jpg

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

My Gold Rush has suddenly stopped working, and I'm a little stumped as to why.
What's happening: Game is set to free play via a rewiring of the coin return button to be a start button (I've never seen another one does this way, but it's worked for the 45+ years that the machine has been in my family). When I push the start button, it initiates startup sequence, and will reset the score reels, then stop and turn off. A video is below.
» YouTube video
If the score reels are zeroed, and I push the start button again, it will sometimes add score to the ones or tens reel, and if I push the start button again, it will zero those reels out. A video is below.
» YouTube video
I have a schematic (there's no manual available for this machine), but I can't figure out why it the machine would shut off like this. I found this thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-1964-startup-sequence#post-1350163) that discussed the startup sequence of a 1964 Bally machine-- can I assume that this applies to my machine as well? If so, it makes it up to at least "The reset relay, through the score motor, will reset the stepper units (zero the ball count and player units)." I can't say for sure if the next step ("The coin relay, through the score motor, will decrement the credit unit.") applies or not, as it's a single player, "add-a-ball" version that doesn't record more than 1 credit (but the add-a-ball stepper does decrement).
Stumped... any guesses would be welcome.

Is the tilt relay tripping at the end of reset? I have a gottlieb machine that does this. Haven't been able to fully solve it. Been cleaning and adjusting switches to the point it only does it about 30% of the time.

#10 4 years ago

Gents-

I figured it out... at some point before coming to my house (this game was purchased by my uncle around 1970... he left it to me in his will) a switch was added to turn the power on and off- though you still need to push the coin return button to turn on the GI and start the game... I don't think it was added to turn the game *on*, but rather to turn it *off*, as the only other way to turn the game off is via a switch inside the cabinet that is activated when you hit the right spot under the machine.

Anyway, that switch failed... I jumpered past it and the game started right up. I'll need to order up a switch or just bypass it entirely, but either way, it's running right.

In the interest of resolving the add-a-ball question, I've attached a photo of the add a ball stepper (the tag says "added ball unit" and it doesn't appear on my schematic). The other photo shows the front side, where the "window" is on the regular replay units. I guess I need to call Steve Young and see if he has the correct schematic.

Thanks for your help!

IMG_1645_(resized).JPG

IMG_1647_(resized).JPG

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