(Topic ID: 255121)

Need a little help getting a Bally Cue Tease to start


By drsfmd

14 days ago



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  • 18 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 hours ago by HowardR
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0Cue-Tease-pinside-pic-Work-03 (resized).jpg
Cue Tease Game Over relay (resized).jpg
0Cue-Tease-Work-02 (resized).jpg
0Cue-Tease-Work-01 (resized).jpg
Cue Tease Replay reset (resized).jpg
IMG_0885 (resized).jpg

#1 14 days ago

I recently picked up a Bally Cue Tease. I did some quick work of getting it running at that time before I pulled the playfield to send it out for restoration (aside: pics below... it came out really gorgeous). I got it back last weekend, and began the process of reassembly. Fired it up, and the score motor just kept running and one of the coils under the reset stack started to get hot and the coil wrapper smoked a bit.

After that, I went through everything I can think of, and I actually got it to start a game, all switches scored, etc... It counted the balls, and the switch in the trough correctly registered-- and after the last ball, the score motor kept running and would not go to game over. I have not been able to get it to start again.

I found this old thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-1964-startup-sequence -- which gives the sequence below for startup. Given that Cue Tease is of similar vintage and uses the same "Gottlieb style" score motor, I'd imagine that my start up sequence is similar. I'm much more familiar with troubleshooting the later games that used the vertical score motor ("Williams style").
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Start up sequence:

-Coin is inserted into the game. The coin relay will energize. It will stay energized through its own hold-in switch and a score motor switch. If the credit button is pressed (instead of a coin being inserted) and there are credits, the credit relay will be energized which energizes the coin relay.

-The coin relay will energize the lock relay (this turns the general illumination on). The lock relay will stay energized through its own hold-in switch and a delay relay switch.

-The coin relay will energize the reset relay, through a game over relay switch (if your game won't start, try cleaning the contacts on the game over relay; a very common Bally problem).

-The score motor will operate. This will energize the score reset relay(s). The score reset relay(s) will attempt to clear the score reels to zero. This is done by operating the score motor. Each turn of the score motor will operate the reset relay once, which in turns moves a score reel one position, until the score reel(s) are at zero. If the score motor continues to run when a game is started, there's a good chance the zero position switch on the score reel(s) is dirty or mis-adjusted.

- The coin relay, through the score motor, will advance the total play meter.

- The reset relay, through the score motor, will reset the stepper units (zero the ball count and player units).

- The coin relay, through the score motor, will decrement the credit unit.

- The coin relay, through the score motor, will energize the game over latch relay coil.

- The coin relay, through the score motor, will energize the 100,000 relay latch coil(s) (if the game supports scores greater than 99,999).

- If the outhole switch is closed (single ball games) or the ball trough switches are closed (multi-ball games), a ball is released to the shooter lane through the outhole relay (single ball game) or ball release relay (multi-ball game) and the score motor.

- On multi-player games, the credit button may be pushed again to add a player. This time the coin relay will not energize the reset relay. Instead it will (through the score motor) advance the total play meter, decrement the credit unit, and advance the coin unit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On my game there are a couple of things happening that may give us clues...

If there are credits on the credit unit when the game is turned on (note: not pushing the start button-- as soon as the game is connected to power), the game lights up and immediately begins to decrement the credit unit. It continues to try to do this even after the credit unit has reached zero.

The reset bank coil does not ever activate.

The ball release keeps cycling in time with the credit unit - so it appears to be trying to start.

The score reels don't zero out most of the time (though they do occasionally). Yes, I did check to make sure that the switches weren't grounded against the housing.

The playfield switches and flippers are all active in this state, and do score points, lighted pops switch from one set to the other when hit, spinners are response, etc -- so I think I'm making it through at least most of the startup sequence, and the score motor isn't finding it's "home" point...

In the area of 8E on the schematic, it references a "merc tilt". I assume this is a mercury switch, but I cannot find one anywhere in the game. I assume that this, and the games played counter have both been removed.

Is the "Game Over" relay referenced in the sequence above the latching relay in the reset bank?

Lastly, I assume this is like Bally games of later vintage where the tile switch on the coin door should be CLOSED and all of the other tilt switches should be OPEN. The schematic indicates this, and it's the state the game was in during the one game that it did start.

A good schematic can be found here: https://www.ipdb.org/files/612/Bally_1963_Cue_Tease_Schematic_Diagram_continuous.pdf

I'll take a closer look at the game over relay-- but I'm open to any other suggestions that you might have...

IMG_0885 (resized).jpg
#2 14 days ago

There's a lot to unpack here. One thing at a time...

Quoted from drsfmd:

If there are credits on the credit unit when the game is turned on (note: not pushing the start button-- as soon as the game is connected to power), the game lights up and immediately begins to decrement the credit unit. It continues to try to do this even after the credit unit has reached zero.

This sounds like two problems:
Cue Tease Replay reset (resized).jpg
First the Credit or Replay unit should stop resetting once it reaches zero credits. Check that the zero credits switch opens once the Replay unit reaches zero and that it's not somehow shorted by bent solder tabs or whatever.

Next it sounds like either the Start Trip relay or 2nd Coin relay is stuck on, or one of the switches shown above on those relays is stuck closed. I think these two should stay on for a score motor cycle and then relax once the game starts resetting. If the Start Trip relay is stuck on, check if the 25 Cent relay is stuck on too.

Beware that the Start Trip, 2nd Coin and 25 Cent relays are all in the 120 volt part of the circuit so observe them carefully and don't touch anything unless the game is unplugged.

/Mark

#3 14 days ago

Also check the coin chute switches. Is a switch stuck closed or are there wires shorting at the coin chute switch stack?

#4 14 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

First the Credit or Replay unit should stop resetting once it reaches zero credits. Check that the zero credits switch opens once the Replay unit reaches zero and that it's not somehow shorted by bent solder tabs or whatever.
Next it sounds like either the Start Trip relay or 2nd Coin relay is stuck on, or one of the switches shown above on those relays is stuck closed. I think these two should stay on for a score motor cycle and then relax once the game starts resetting. If the Start Trip relay is stuck on, check if the 25 Cent relay is stuck on too.
Beware that the Start Trip, 2nd Coin and 25 Cent relays are all in the 120 volt part of the circuit so observe them carefully and don't touch anything unless the game is unplugged.
/Mark

Thanks Mark- I will check these and report back.

Quoted from fredsmythson:

Also check the coin chute switches. Is a switch stuck closed or are there wires shorting at the coin chute switch stack?

That was one of the first things I checked. The switches themselves are fine-- checked them with the multimeter. I will check the switches as well as well-- I assume you mean the $.25 and second coin relays. I don't recall seeing anything on the reset bank related to coining up, but I will double check.

#5 10 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

First the Credit or Replay unit should stop resetting once it reaches zero credits. Check that the zero credits switch opens once the Replay unit reaches zero and that it's not somehow shorted by bent solder tabs or whatever.

The zero credits switch does indeed open.

Quoted from MarkG:

Next it sounds like either the Start Trip relay or 2nd Coin relay is stuck on, or one of the switches shown above on those relays is stuck closed. I think these two should stay on for a score motor cycle and then relax once the game starts resetting. If the Start Trip relay is stuck on, check if the 25 Cent relay is stuck on too.

You might be on to something here... so I figured out that the reset bank only fires when the Start relay is the only one engaged. If any of the other relays on that bank are latched, the bank solenoid does not fire.

If I am reading the schematic correctly, once that bank solenoid locks the relays on, the Start relay should unlatch- correct? Mine does not. In fact, the coil underneath got so warm at one point that the wrapper started to smoke... so something here is definitely off, but I'm not sure where to go next with that.

Quoted from MarkG:

Beware that the Start Trip, 2nd Coin and 25 Cent relays are all in the 120 volt part of the circuit so observe them carefully and don't touch anything unless the game is unplugged.

Thanks. I was already aware of that, but one can never be too safe. For anyone reading in the future, there's also 120V in the coin door.

Added 8 days ago:

Edit: Not the start relay... the game over relay. Sorry!

#6 9 days ago

Bump. I'm really stumped with this one.

#7 8 days ago

Bump... so what would make the game over relay latch not unlock? The coil gets hot and the wrapper starts to smoke so I turn it off. Only being able to work in such short bursts is making this difficult to diagnose.

#8 7 days ago

Hi drsfmd
I actually never have seen the inside of such an old Bally pin - so my trying to help is "from studying the schematics (good, ipdb has it)". Such old schematics I fear - the way switches are drawn, hmm - maybe we often must do what I did when begun "fixing pins I bought by studying the schematics". I then often have seen a switch (on some relay) (example) drawn closed and said "when I try to figure out what this switch may do - I'd prefer to see this switch drawn open". I then went to the pin (main power cord unplugged, Safety Reasons) - pressed the armature on that relay and watched the switches - I always could see (example) "switch in question wants to open" - I then looked for "wires soldered-on ?" - "contactpoints clean ?" - "as the switch wants to open - does it truely open (is the gapping correct) when the armature is moved ?" I did inspect many switches (I have seen in the schematics) - switches maybe have influence on stuff faulty - inspected not fully understanding this part of the schematics. You may have to check switches in Your pin as I did when I started in the hobby (as I happen to not fully understand the schematics).

To Your description in post-1 - a coil getting hot - never let "a coil get hot, coil wrapper smoking" --- usually we then do "toggle-on - start a game - do a test or two --- then toggling off and let the machine (specifically this coil) cool down --- then we do toggle-on again etc. If this method is not practicable as the coil gets hot within seconds: Unsolder one wire leading to the coil and tape the unsoldered end of the wire - coil cannot get hot anymore - we must keep in mind that this specific coil is taken out of order. Maybe quite practical can be "we install a Test-Lite instead of the problematic coil" - a Test-Light can be lit for hours - it never will overheat - and so we can chase the problem "why is there always current flowing". Your pin is an Bally pin - relays etc. run on 48 to 50VAC --- where do You live ? - in the USA ? having Line-Current of around 110VAC ? Then You could make You an Test-Light with an old bedroom lamp - cheap Edison style 110VAC bulb (not modern Neon- or modern LCD-type bulbs). See the first JPG --- as an example "coil on the bell gets hot" - unsolder one wire to the coil and hook-in instead the 110VAC Test-Light (cheap bedroom light). It does not matter on what side of the coil You do unsolder.

To Your description in post-1 - Mercury Tilt, see here http://www.stevechannel.com/tiltmechanism.htm on the last picture the Ball-Roll-Tilt - works the same as the Mercury-Tilt - we do try to cheat by lifting the front of the pin to make the playfield less steep --- the pin punishes us with an permanent Tilt ...
We do not need Mercury-Tilt - we do not need Ball-Roll-Tilt as we do not try to cheat our pins.

To Your description in post-1 - Game-Over-Relay --- here http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=BOOK are nice books to Williams and Bally pins - see the second JPG - it is a copy of "Bally 1968 Parts Catalog, page-15 (ori-10)". An 8-bank Trip-Relays (?) : Start, Reset, Game Over, First Player Tilt, Second Player Tilt, Two can Play, First Player 1000, Second Player 1000. Do You have here and there some paper tags telling the name of relays ? What do You mean with "... above the latching relay in the reset bank" ?

Is post-1 the description of "actual problems" ? Greetings Rolf

0Cue-Tease-Work-01 (resized).jpg0Cue-Tease-Work-02 (resized).jpg
#9 6 days ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

so what would make the game over relay latch not unlock? The coil gets hot and the wrapper starts to smoke so I turn it off. Only being able to work in such short bursts is making this difficult to diagnose.

First a little nomenclature to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Without access to the game I'll assume that the Game Over Trip relay is a trip relay, meaning that it should trip when the game ends, and is mechanically reset at the start of the game by the large Trip Bank Reset solenoid that resets all of the trip relays in the bank at the same time. For those unfamiliar, most relays including the Game Over Trip relay should operate on momentary pulses and should not stay active or get warm.

Here is the schematic for the Game Over Trip relay on Cue Tease:
Cue Tease Game Over relay (resized).jpg
For the Game Over Trip relay to stay active due to its own circuit would require that 3 normally open switches on the left part of the circuit, or 2 or 3 normally open switches on the right side of the schematic all be stuck closed. Not impossible but somewhat unlikely. It seems more likely that there is an unrelated short connecting the 40-0/green wire on one side of the relay coil to the 15-3/red-yellow supply wire at the top of the schematic.

To prove whether or not a short exists you could block a switch from each side of the circuit, for example the switch on the Match relay and the switch on the 1st Player Tilt Trip relay. Also unplug the Match Feature Adjustment jones plug to remove it from the circuit. If the Game Over Trip relay still fires there must be another path to the relay coil that's not on the schematic and is probably a short.

Finding the short will take some investigation. If you're lucky the short is always there. If that's the case you can unplug the game and clip your meter between the green wire and the red-yellow wire and measure an ohm or less of resistance between the two. If you can measure an ohm or less with the game unplugged then start poking around to see if anything you touch or wiggle changes the resistance. I'd start by examining the solder lugs of the trip relay switches and trip relay coils. Notice how two of the switches on the right side of the schematic are also in the trip relay bank. It could be that there are some bent solder lugs that are touching each other.

#10 6 days ago

As the person who sold you this....all I am going to say is "who did the restoration...cause it's amazing!"

Now I'll read the rest

Quoted from drsfmd:

I recently picked up a Bally Cue Tease. I did some quick work of getting it running at that time before I pulled the playfield to send it out for restoration (aside: pics below... it came out really gorgeous). I got it back last weekend, and began the process of reassembly. Fired it up, and the score motor just kept running and one of the coils under the reset stack started to get hot and the coil wrapper smoked a bit.
After that, I went through everything I can think of, and I actually got it to start a game, all switches scored, etc... It counted the balls, and the switch in the trough correctly registered-- and after the last ball, the score motor kept running and would not go to game over. I have not been able to get it to start again.
I found this old thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-1964-startup-sequence -- which gives the sequence below for startup. Given that Cue Tease is of similar vintage and uses the same "Gottlieb style" score motor, I'd imagine that my start up sequence is similar. I'm much more familiar with troubleshooting the later games that used the vertical score motor ("Williams style").
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Start up sequence:
-Coin is inserted into the game. The coin relay will energize. It will stay energized through its own hold-in switch and a score motor switch. If the credit button is pressed (instead of a coin being inserted) and there are credits, the credit relay will be energized which energizes the coin relay.
-The coin relay will energize the lock relay (this turns the general illumination on). The lock relay will stay energized through its own hold-in switch and a delay relay switch.
-The coin relay will energize the reset relay, through a game over relay switch (if your game won't start, try cleaning the contacts on the game over relay; a very common Bally problem).
-The score motor will operate. This will energize the score reset relay(s). The score reset relay(s) will attempt to clear the score reels to zero. This is done by operating the score motor. Each turn of the score motor will operate the reset relay once, which in turns moves a score reel one position, until the score reel(s) are at zero. If the score motor continues to run when a game is started, there's a good chance the zero position switch on the score reel(s) is dirty or mis-adjusted.
- The coin relay, through the score motor, will advance the total play meter.
- The reset relay, through the score motor, will reset the stepper units (zero the ball count and player units).
- The coin relay, through the score motor, will decrement the credit unit.
- The coin relay, through the score motor, will energize the game over latch relay coil.
- The coin relay, through the score motor, will energize the 100,000 relay latch coil(s) (if the game supports scores greater than 99,999).
- If the outhole switch is closed (single ball games) or the ball trough switches are closed (multi-ball games), a ball is released to the shooter lane through the outhole relay (single ball game) or ball release relay (multi-ball game) and the score motor.
- On multi-player games, the credit button may be pushed again to add a player. This time the coin relay will not energize the reset relay. Instead it will (through the score motor) advance the total play meter, decrement the credit unit, and advance the coin unit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On my game there are a couple of things happening that may give us clues...
If there are credits on the credit unit when the game is turned on (note: not pushing the start button-- as soon as the game is connected to power), the game lights up and immediately begins to decrement the credit unit. It continues to try to do this even after the credit unit has reached zero.
The reset bank coil does not ever activate.
The ball release keeps cycling in time with the credit unit - so it appears to be trying to start.
The score reels don't zero out most of the time (though they do occasionally). Yes, I did check to make sure that the switches weren't grounded against the housing.
The playfield switches and flippers are all active in this state, and do score points, lighted pops switch from one set to the other when hit, spinners are response, etc -- so I think I'm making it through at least most of the startup sequence, and the score motor isn't finding it's "home" point...
In the area of 8E on the schematic, it references a "merc tilt". I assume this is a mercury switch, but I cannot find one anywhere in the game. I assume that this, and the games played counter have both been removed.
Is the "Game Over" relay referenced in the sequence above the latching relay in the reset bank?
Lastly, I assume this is like Bally games of later vintage where the tile switch on the coin door should be CLOSED and all of the other tilt switches should be OPEN. The schematic indicates this, and it's the state the game was in during the one game that it did start.
A good schematic can be found here: https://www.ipdb.org/files/612/Bally_1963_Cue_Tease_Schematic_Diagram_continuous.pdf
I'll take a closer look at the game over relay-- but I'm open to any other suggestions that you might have...[quoted image]

#11 5 days ago
Quoted from ejacques:

As the person who sold you this....all I am going to say is "who did the restoration...cause it's amazing!"
Now I'll read the rest

jaymach1 gets all of the credit for the touch up and clear coat.

Rolf & Mark- thank you. I’m playing in a tournament tonight- I’ll report back as soon as I get to it (probably tomorrow after work).

#12 3 days ago

Gents-

I've done some testing, and I'm reporting back in with results...

Rolf- I tried the test light with a 110V bulb. It didn't work. That said, I don't have a single incandescent bulb in the house... they are hardly sold here anymore. I tried the test with a few spare pinball bulbs, and the light very brightly for a brief moment then burn out (obviously). I will track down a proper incandescent bulb and try again.

Quoted from MarkG:

First a little nomenclature to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Without access to the game I'll assume that the Game Over Trip relay is a trip relay, meaning that it should trip when the game ends, and is mechanically reset at the start of the game by the large Trip Bank Reset solenoid that resets all of the trip relays in the bank at the same time. For those unfamiliar, most relays including the Game Over Trip relay should operate on momentary pulses and should not stay active or get warm.

Correct. I'm not sure what triggers the unlatching of the various switch stacks, but if I manually trip them all (with the game off of course...), then turn the game on and trigger the coin door switch, it adds 3 credits to the credit wheel (which is correct-- 3 games for .25), and the coil that fires to resets the whole bank is activated. I had previously reported that this only happened when *only* the start relay was latched. I don't know why or how, but this condition has changed. Once latched, these all remain latched as the game tries to start. I'm not sure when or in what order those should start unlatching. To be clear-- I think the issue is that the game over relay is NOT unlatching (ie: The coil is getting hot because it's trying to unlatch the switch stack and is not doing so successfully). Maybe I can figure out a way to trip that latch while the game is trying to start and see if that makes a difference?

Quoted from MarkG:

For the Game Over Trip relay to stay active due to its own circuit would require that 3 normally open switches on the left part of the circuit, or 2 or 3 normally open switches on the right side of the schematic all be stuck closed. Not impossible but somewhat unlikely. It seems more likely that there is an unrelated short connecting the 40-0/green wire on one side of the relay coil to the 15-3/red-yellow supply wire at the top of the schematic.
To prove whether or not a short exists you could block a switch from each side of the circuit, for example the switch on the Match relay and the switch on the 1st Player Tilt Trip relay. Also unplug the Match Feature Adjustment jones plug to remove it from the circuit. If the Game Over Trip relay still fires there must be another path to the relay coil that's not on the schematic and is probably a short.

Ok- I did exactly as you suggested- blocking the switch on the Match relay, and the switch on the 1st player trip relay. I also unplugged the Match feature. How would I test from here? Put jumpers to the coil and see if there's voltage? Rolf's light bulb idea? Since the latch isn't opening the condition of the switch stack doesn't change. Or I'm totally misunderstanding it-- and the coil would normally only unlatch when the game ends?

Quoted from MarkG:

Finding the short will take some investigation. If you're lucky the short is always there. If that's the case you can unplug the game and clip your meter between the green wire and the red-yellow wire and measure an ohm or less of resistance between the two. If you can measure an ohm or less with the game unplugged then start poking around to see if anything you touch or wiggle changes the resistance. I'd start by examining the solder lugs of the trip relay switches and trip relay coils. Notice how two of the switches on the right side of the schematic are also in the trip relay bank. It could be that there are some bent solder lugs that are touching each other.

Ok- I tested resistance from the green wire on the Game Over unlatching coil and the Red-Yellow wire on the switch stack for the 1st Player Tilt (there's no red-yellow wire on the game over switch stack, though there is a red-yellow wire going to most of the other stacks on that bank). I get a reading of 4.3 ohms.

I checked the condition of the switches and solder lugs as best as I could on my own. I'll need to get a buddy to come to the house to help me pull the bottom panel out for a closer look at these... but there's nothing I saw that looks amiss-- these switches are insulated with little pieces of clear plastic tubing.

#13 3 days ago

Hi drsfmd, MarkG +
I added a bit more or the schematics - (encircled blue stuff) - maybe the (encircled red) Switch on Game-Over-Relay is faulty not opening when the Game-Over-Relay actuates ? Greetings Rolf

0Cue-Tease-pinside-pic-Work-03 (resized).jpg
#14 3 days ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

To be clear-- I think the issue is that the game over relay is NOT unlatching (ie: The coil is getting hot because it's trying to unlatch the switch stack and is not doing so successfully).

So the game resets including all the trip relays, and the Game Over Trip relay immediately starts heating up because it's being powered? And it doesn't trip even though it's powered?

Quoted from drsfmd:

Ok- I did exactly as you suggested- blocking the switch on the Match relay, and the switch on the 1st player trip relay. I also unplugged the Match feature. How would I test from here?

If you block those switches, does the Game Over Trip relay coil still get power and get hot? If so power is likely coming from a short not shown on the schematic.

Quoted from drsfmd:

Ok- I tested resistance from the green wire on the Game Over unlatching coil and the Red-Yellow wire on the switch stack for the 1st Player Tilt (there's no red-yellow wire on the game over switch stack, though there is a red-yellow wire going to most of the other stacks on that bank). I get a reading of 4.3 ohms.

This is suspicious but inconclusive. I'd expect to see more resistance. What's the resistance of the coil itself? I'd expect it to be more than that even if measured in circuit. Either way, the resistance from green to red-yellow wires should be at least as much as the resistance of the coil. If it's less that would indicate that there's another path to the coil around the switches you blocked.

The 1B SCM switch in the schematic above is on the score motor. Perhaps there's a short near that switch?

#15 11 hours ago

Ok... I don't know if it's progress or not, but there's something to report...

I pulled the bottom board, and doubled checked all of the switches on the relay bank. When I reinstalled it in the machine, the coil no longer gets hot. Nothing else changes.

I am coming to the realization that the start sequence from 1964 is different than the start sequence for this game (1963). So can we go back to the basics? What order *should* things be happening on this machine?

#16 9 hours ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

What order *should* things be happening on this machine?

There is a description of the reset sequence in the An Introduction to Bally Flipper Games manual that may be of some help:

Link at:
https://www.funwithpinball.com/resources/parts-catalog-list#Bally
or directly at:
http://www.backglass.org/williams/kordek_archives/introduction_to_bally_flipper_games_blue_cover_100.pdf

But without the game or a game manual the specific reset sequence for this game may be hard to find. It would be possible to figure it out from the schematic but that is a big job. Are there one or two things in particular that aren't working?

#17 8 hours ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Are there one or two things in particular that aren't working?

The score reels don't reset, and the score motor won't stop running. The playfield switches, flippers etc. are working.

#18 5 hours ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

The score reels don't reset

1) Does the relay bank reset, and
2) What's the Reset Trip relay doing when this happens?

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