(Topic ID: 101615)

Need a little DE (Rocky and Bullwinkle) tech help!

By drsfmd

9 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

j8pinout-981.jpg
solenoids-244.jpg
j8-848.jpg
CN19-270.jpg

#1 9 years ago

*sigh*

I picked up the Rocky and Bullwinkle that Aveamike had for sale. It worked fine at his place.

To get it down my super narrow stairway, the head had to come off. I hate doing it, but I have no alternative, and I've done it with a bunch of other machines without issue. This time it didn't go so well. Upon reassembly, it *seemed* that all was right. I credited up, and started a game... as soon as the ball launched, the kickers locked on, the flippers didn't work, and the ball return kickout (or whatever that left side ball save is called) locked on and quickly started smoking.

We double checked everything to make sure that nothing was installed incorrectly, and couldn't find anything. Ok... off to the manual. If I unplug J8 the locked coils unlock, but of course none of the affected items worked.

Thoughts? No quite sure where to turn...

#2 9 years ago

I don't know much at all about DE sega ver 3 games but this may help some

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Data_East/Sega

#3 9 years ago
Quoted from northvibe:

I don't know much at all about DE sega ver 3 games but this may help some
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Data_East/Sega

I'm actually already reading my way through that-- so far no help.

#4 9 years ago

Ah snaps. I searched it quick for coil lock and didn't see anything come up. Hmm, look in the manual at the coil matrix. See if those coils have the same power wire. You can work coil back, but it could be a cut/ground somewhere on a bundle of cable that is pinched in the head?

When a coil is locked on it is usually grounding out (I think, or is that backwards?), via a bad wire, short or some bad logic in the board. Also consider using a DMM to test the power voltage test points to see if the proper voltage is at them.

#5 9 years ago

Nothing at all in that guide regarding J8.

Shit. This sucks.

#6 9 years ago

A bump for the early morning crowd. Totally lost here.

#7 9 years ago

Cold solder joints, bad connection or transistor. From moving it and taking the head off you goofed something up. I would back track and triple check all your connections.

#8 9 years ago

All of the connections have been checked... twice last night, and again this morning. I checked the transistors by putting my black alligator clip on the ground strap and touching the red probe to the center leg on each transistor-- they all had resistance when the machine was off (which based on what I read would indicate that the transistors aren't blown).

If anybody wants to take a look, the full manual can be found here:
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/23/Data_East_1993_Adventures_of_Rocky_and_Bullwinkle_and_Friends_Full_Manual.pdf

In looking at this with a fresh mind (though I'm not at the machine at the moment) it would seem to me that the problem may not be with J8, but instead may be with CN19 on the CPU board. It looks like J8 simply supplies the power to the coils that are locking on (and the flipper grounds) and by unplugging J8 I have only prevented the power from getting to the area CN19 supports. I submit the three following images... what are your thoughts?

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm158/drsfmd/CN19_zps74afd69c.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm158/drsfmd/j8_zpsa921753e.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm158/drsfmd/solenoids_zps2e5fa910.jpg

Post edited by drsfmd: Drag and drop didn't work... nor did manual upload to pinside. Had to host the images externally-- sorry!

#9 9 years ago

Imaging problem seems to be with IE. Let's hope I do better with Firefox CN19-270.jpgCN19-270.jpgj8-848.jpgj8-848.jpgsolenoids-244.jpgsolenoids-244.jpg

#10 9 years ago

My curiosity got the best of me, so I ran home to check something. If I leave CN19 unplugged, but plug in J8, the coils lock-- so maybe CN19 isn't the issue.

With J8 unplugged (and CN19 plugged in), I can start the game, it boots, attracts, and then I can coin up and start a game. The ball feed puts a ball into the shooter lane. I have to manually put the ball into play. I can play and scoring seems to work correctly-- the flippers are working as well now (they were not working last night). What doesn't work:
-The ball launch
- The left lane kickout
- The pop bumpers
- The playfield kickout holes
- I didn't think to try the slingshots, but let's assume that they aren't working as well

Edit: Hmmm... if I'm reading the schematic correctly, the ball launch isn't on the same circuit as all of the others. Thoughts?

#11 9 years ago

Can you check the board at the test points for correct voltage? Any caps look to be bulging? Stupid things to check are, reseating the plugs and chips.

Do you have a logic probe?

#12 9 years ago
Quoted from northvibe:

Can you check the board at the test points for correct voltage?

I certain can. I didn't find a notation in the manual for test points (do DE boards have them?) or would I test at the fuses? The pins on the board at J8? I need a little guidance here.

Quoted from northvibe:

Any caps look to be bulging?

The caps all look good.

Quoted from northvibe:

Stupid things to check are, reseating the plugs and chips.

I gave each of them a little push to make sure they were snug (they all were). I didn't pull and reseat, but I can...

Quoted from northvibe:

Do you have a logic probe?

I don't. I just checked and my local Radio Shack doesn't carry them. Going into a holiday weekend, it looks like the only one I can pick up locally is: http://www.harborfreight.com/computer-safe-automotive-logic-probe-98709.html - it's designed for automotive use, but I could change the alligator clips to little ones if you think this would work (a logic probe is a logic probe, right?)

#13 9 years ago

I found this on an old KLOV thread regarding a Maverick machine (which uses the same boards)... does this sound like it could fit my issue?

Ok, I seriously doubt anybodys still interested in this thread, but for my own pride, I wanted to end it, with the problem fixed. My multiple transistor replacement, diode replacement, and coil replacement were all not necessary. as in problems with other games, I went to square one, which is the schematics. It ended up being that the up kicker wires, where they attach to the PPB board, were in the wrong pin locations, however it actually was understandable. This is why. The schematic shows PPB plug J8 to have 12 pins, with 2 cut out, for keys I imagine. On the PPB board itself, the j8 plug is labeled right below it with numbers 1-10. The label obviously doesn't count the two blank keyed pins. however, the schematic shows wires, incidentally the laser kickback wires, to be at locations 11 and 12, which is correct, however on the PPB board, those locations are labeled 9 and 10.

Basically, because of the keyed blanks, and the schematic not matching the labels on the PPB board, the up kicker wires were on pins 7 and 8, instead of the pins 5 and 6, which they were supposed to be on.
so I would like to say it was not my fault, or misdiagnosis, it was an error, or inconsistency in the schematic compared to the PPB board.

j8pinout-981.jpgj8pinout-981.jpg

#14 9 years ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

All of the connections have been checked... twice last night, and again this morning. I checked the transistors by putting my black alligator clip on the ground strap and touching the red probe to the center leg on each transistor-- they all had resistance when the machine was off (which based on what I read would indicate that the transistors aren't blown).

That quick check will tell you if you have a shorted transistor, but they can still be bad and pass that test. You need to test the transistors for each of locked on coils further. You also need to test the tip36 transistors on the PPB board. The tip36's can be tested with the board still installed, but you'll need to remove the CPU board to test those. The transistor testing overview at the link below will get you started.

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/index.htm#trans

You also need to test the pre-driver transistors on the CPU board. If any of the tip122's or 2n4401's test slightly out of spec (different than their neighbors), replace them. The tip36s on the PPB board usually completely short. Easy to test. Once you get all the transistors sorted out, you need to check all the coils and their diodes. Because you have to remove one leg to test a diode and they are cheap, best just to replace them on the coils that are locking on. Make sure you test or replace ALL the coils and diodes before you turn the game back on as you may kill any new transistors installed if there is a problem with a coil or diode. When you do power the game on, be prepared to turn it back off quickly if any coils lock on again.

#15 9 years ago

Funny you mention the tip36's... I was just reading about them, and that's the next thing I'm going to look at.

I do have something of an update. I took a long lunch and decided to work on it for a bit. I reseated all of the plugs, checked for burns, etc. When I fired it back up, everything worked *except* the left lane kicker, which still locks on as soon as the power is turned on. I unsoldered one side of that coil, and was able to successfully start a game and play for a little while. Everything else is working, scoring properly, etc.

Now, what do you think the chances are that I simply fried that coil?

#16 9 years ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

Funny you mention the tip36's... I was just reading about them, and that's the next thing I'm going to look at.
I do have something of an update. I took a long lunch and decided to work on it for a bit. I reseated all of the plugs, checked for burns, etc. When I fired it back up, everything worked *except* the left lane kicker, which still locks on as soon as the power is turned on. I unsoldered one side of that coil, and was able to successfully start a game and play for a little while. Everything else is working, scoring properly, etc.
Now, what do you think the chances are that I simply fried that coil?

I think you'd have a bad diode or transistor at that point. Sounds like the coil still fires, from what I'm told if the coil fires still you're good, they rarely go bad. It is the diode that usually goes.

#17 9 years ago

I'm also having problems with my Rocky Bullwinkle, pretty much the same problem as drsfmd has,
when I start the machine, a pop bumper locks and blows the fuse, I was also told to check out CN19
and the transistors....so I pulled the board out and had them tested, all works fine....
So I hope you find your problem, cuz I dont

#18 9 years ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

Now, what do you think the chances are that I simply fried that coil?

If it locks on when you turn on the game, that means the coil is fine. When a coil 'fries', the plunger gets physically locked inside the coil due to expansion caused by overheating.

If you look at the pic you posted above, the laser kick is turned on by Q2 on the PPB board, which is a tip36. You need to test Q2 and you need to remove the apron to inspect and test the laser kick coil, diode and wiring.

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

If it locks on when you turn on the game, that means the coil is fine. When a coil 'fries', the plunger gets physically locked inside the coil due to expansion caused by overheating.
If you look at the pic you posted above, the laser kick is turned on by Q2 on the PPB board, which is a tip36. You need to test Q2 and you need to remove the apron to inspect and test the laser kick coil, diode and wiring.

I figured as much with the coil. I might replace the coil anyway, because it was literally smoking hot. I'm going to head to radio shack tomorrow and get diodes-- hopefully it's that simple. I'm still a little lost as to what happened, but I'm pleased that it seems to be moving in the right direction.

1 year later
#20 7 years ago

587 days since the last post to this thread. I even started another thread at one point (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/revisiting-my-nagging-rocky-and-bullwinkle-issues).

I have tested and retested the transistors and diodes, and they all test out ok (except for the one attached to the laser kick, I changed that, and the new one blew immediately too)... but I'm no closer to resolving my issues with the laser kick than I was at the beginning. Given the information in these two threads, what is the likelihood that we can narrow the problem down to something on the PPB? If so, I'm willing to order a new Rottendog board to get me back up and running properly.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have to help me rectify this situation.

#21 7 years ago

Bump.

#22 7 years ago

Well, if you have worked backwards from the coil to the logic board and replaced the transistors and resistors in the circuit, next in line would be an IC chip. I had a similar issue with a slingshot coil, replaced the IC chip and problem was solved.

-Mike

#23 7 years ago

Here's a link to the manual (warning 20mb file). How would one determine which IC is responsible for that particular coil? http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/23/Data_East_1993_Adventures_of_Rocky_and_Bullwinkle_and_Friends_Full_Manual.pdf

#24 7 years ago

That is a good question. I was not actually able to figure that out myself, the two 7402's share traces which lead to my confusion, so I bought two just in case. I can't remember exactly where I found the instructions on testing an IC chip with a multimeter (maybe someone has a link?) but I started with that process and found the the upper one not testing 100% accurate. So I replaced that one first. It solved my issue with the slingshot coil.

I would just verify you have tested the transistors, diode and resistors on the Q13 circuit at the CN19 connector on the CPU board. If they are good/have been replaced. Then I'd move on to the two 7402's.

-Mike

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
Armor and blades
$ 14.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
Toys/Add-ons
$ 39.00
Cabinet - Other
Arcade Upkeep
Other
$ 35.00
Hardware
Filament Printing
Hardware
$ 29.50
Playfield - Plastics
Pinball Haus
Plastics
From: $ 10.00
Playfield - Protection
UpKick Pinball
Protection
$ 49.95
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
Led
From: $ 159.95
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
PinSound
Sound/Speakers
From: $ 399.95
Boards
PinSound
Boards
From: $ 64.95
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
PinSound
Sound/Speakers
From: $ 40.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
Interactive
From: $ 110.00
Playfield - Other
Arcade Upkeep
Other
$ 18.00
Playfield - Plastics
Pinball Haus
Plastics
$ 5.95
Playfield - Protection
The Pinball Scientist
Protection
$ 30.00
Playfield - Other
Filament Printing
Other
$ 15.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Gweem's Mods
Sound/Speakers
$ 285.99
Cabinet - Other
PinSound
Other
$ 12.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
Toys/Add-ons
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Daddio's 3D Printed Mods
Toys/Add-ons
$ 18.95
$ 27.95
$ 18.00
Playfield - Plastics
Pinball Haus
Plastics
3,900 (OBO)
$ 12.00
Tools
Nezzy's Pinball Prints
Tools
From: $ 209.00
From: $ 0.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Daddio's 3D Printed Mods
Toys/Add-ons
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/need-a-little-de-rocky-and-bullwinkle-tech-help and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.