no

then again it would make them easier to find years latter

in before the lock...

mario-outtaHere.gif

Great idea.......mods???

T_G,

Perhaps the way to handle this is for you to start your own thread to list whichever closed threads you want to remember for later reading and/or future re-reads.
You could also let other Pinsiders post links to closed threads, so that you don't have to do all the work.

Mud-flaps did something similar with his Epic/Favorite Best-of-Pinside topics thread.

T_G,

One way to make it easier for you to find closed threads is to use the sub-forum filter checkboxes along the left side of the main Forum page to only look at the sub-forums that tend to have more of the drama.

You can temporarily uncheck the E-m, Resto, Tech, Events, and Playing sub-forums.
Then search down through the list of thread topics appearing on screen.
Not much fighting goes on in threads in those sub-forums, nor discussions involving politics, war, religion, etc.

The whole idea behind locking threads is to kind of forget about them.

You will also be seeing more deleted instead of locked threads in the future as I'm trying to keep them from festering. These threads often contain images and content that I have no desire whatsoever to be hosting on my site (for various reasons).

I know TG is only joking here, but wanted to inject a bit of serious into this thread. Now carry on!

Get rid of off topic, seems rather silly to have it then lock the thread when someone starts one.

Off topic has a lot of good content which does not necessarily have to do with pinball. There is a huge gap between talking pinball and talking about potentially contentious political or social subjects. I think getting rid of OT would be a loss for the community, while avoiding problem subjects most certainly is not.

It also has a lot of crap I don't care to read.
Instead of whining about though it I just don't read or comment on them.
We need to get rid of the cigar thread and any pics or references to guns, any game with guns on them or in the title need to be banned.
Since pinball is basically a game where you shoot at targets and causes juvenile delinquency we need to get rid of them also.
The last thing we want to promote is a bunch of drunken cigar smokers racing from arcade to arcade in their fancy race cars where they shoot at a bunch of random targets.

No more tits either, those things produce mother's milk the gateway drug to everything.

IBTL

wordlock-best-travel-luggage-lock.jpg

We have a winner Folks!

I do appreciate your explanation though Robin.

Chris

I've learned over the years that running a forum you can't please everyone. I guess that's just the way it is.

Trust me when I say these are not easy decisions to make. I know there are a lot of gun enthusiasts members here on Pinside. But we have seen these gun threads get negative too often for various reasons and I just will not have that. It divides the community and that clashes with my goal to actually bring together people from around the world who love pinball.

I'm trying hard to run a forum that is both enjoyable to as many pinball fans as possible and also accessible to as many different people as possible. Pinside is not just for middle aged American men who enjoy both pinball and firearms. It just doesn't work that way.

What about a "drama" sub-forum instead?

I am with you on the gun thing. Personally I am an enthusiast, but the history of the threads here does not lie. You may as well add it to the rules IMHO.

But I AM worried about the threads about company finances getting locked. That is genuine pinball discussion and concern. You find the same things on other hobby websites - discussion about manufacturers comings and goings. And there are definitely "Goings" in other hobbies. Sometimes business models don't work. We as hobbyists should be allowed to discuss these matters freely. I don't claim to know if the threads are getting locked for bickering and personal attacks or because company representatives and lawyers are sending nasty emails to mods here. If it is the latter though that would suck bad.

You could see a point where that would need to be added to the rules as well. "Due to threatened lawsuits and continued non-compliance, pinball company finances may no longer be discussed on this website. Please use RGP for all such discussion." or something like that. Let's hope we don't go in that direction. But if it was that or no pinside I would opt for Pinside.

I sometimes do not understand why a thread gets locked, or a person gets banned or suspended.
It's all a subjective call and clearly we will never all agree.
I'm more often confused as to why it seems to bother people so much. Pinside is generally very well run and the small number of blow-ups is a credit to Robin and the moderators. Thanks!

It's just pinball after all

I'm not ready to start compiling and adding a list of disallowed topic subjects to the site rules. I'm just trying to keep it generic and explain here that gun topics are amongst the topics that tend to fly off the rails, people start fighting, bickering, ugliness etc. I think these types of topics are better suited somewhere else, like say, a gun forum where everyone agrees about guns being cool, useful or fun or whatever

One of the challenges for a site like this is to try and stay on the good side of pinball companies while also remaining independent as a discussion platform. I love what all these new companies are doing. 15 years ago pinball was almost dead and look at it now - more alive and kicking than it ever was in those 15 years. We've got what, 10 new startups? Maybe even more?

The concerns in the threads you are referring to are definitely genuine, and often the topics start of in a good way. But when the rumors start piling up and start taking the form of truth without proper evidence (a.k.a. speculation), I sometimes feel I need to step in. After all, these companies are already vulnerable being startups and all. I would hate to see Pinside being a contributing factor for a new pinball company failing. That's why these topics get closed occasionally. Note: closed, not deleted.

To date, no pinball manufacturer or parts manufacturer has ever sent legal threats to Pinside.com

You're most welcome!

Robin, let me first wish you continued success with the site. It is obviously a runaway success and is now a go-to destination in the pinball world. But related to your above comment, you really can't have it both ways. I can see the point of maintaining civility on a private forum (and the related banning and thread locking that may entail), but when you clearly have picked a "side", even a noble side of (everyone that is or is trying to build pinball machines) you run the risk of killing truly open discussions on relevant topics related to pinball. These new companies will either sink or swim and if they can't stand up to some internet trolling or questions then they probably aren't strong enough to survive anyway.

I bring all this up because I recently had a run-in with one of your mods on another thread. We have since discussed things offline (kissed and made up) so we are good, but I can tell you from experience with other forums, once you get a reputation for taking sides it will kill your traffic here. Ask the guy that runs the Aussie forums if you don't believe me, they started taking sides and eventually ran off anyone actually interested in having a discussion.

If manufacturers want (or need) a place to post their updates without any confrontation they should put up a web site, or maybe hire the company that manages Stern's Facebook account. Pinside is a forum, and a good one. Please don't over-moderate it to death.

Respectfully submitted.

In regards to encouraging companies to post about new products, upgrades, announcements, etc. without those posts leading to threads that encourage negative so called 'discussions', how about a section where a company can post 'news' but said nes but it is not a thread that encourages comment? I have seen this in other forums, although the reasoning there is not to avoid negative backlash, but so that people do not have to wade through 'ads'.
Sure it benefits companies to get feedback about products via posts, but for those companies who have already done their research and choose not to encourage or engage the nay-sayers, it provides the company an oportunity to make announcements and simply get back to business. Sure people can start new threads to discuss the pros or cons of a product or announcement. But I imagine that it would aid in cutting down the posts from people who immediately react negatively to certain manufacturers.

Of course I have never hosted a forum, and defer to the experience of other's who do, but I imagine every once in awhile you have to step back re-evaluate what is not working, and try alternatives. Sometimes the alternatives work sometimes they don't, that is just part of the fun.

Go to RPG where it's not moderated.

Why?

What we really need is more T_G !

IMHO a "Off Topic" forum is exactly as it reads and its luck of the draw. I know a couple forums that require a specific access request to their off topic forum and the only rules are no porn, explicit profanity or attacking each other. If any of those rules are broken the person looses access to that forum, permanently. If there is any sub forum that should be lightly moderated it would be the off topic area hence the name and a person should not venture inside if they cant handle the varied content. Currently its pretty clear someone has a deep dislike for anything firearm related even though the thread was pretty civil yet it was nuked not for anything that happened but what COULD have happened.

Of course the rules of this board is entirely up to the site owner and they can do as they please, its just unfortunate that the moderation in this instance was not a result of an actual problem but a perceived one or personal dislike.

I'm going to take issue with that statement. To the letter of the law, this is Robin's site and he can do what he wants with it. But, when you solicit and accept donations, you do give up some of it being "yours". Again, not to the letter of the law, but certainly in spirit and morally. If the owner doesn't like it, then he shouldn't accept donations.

In addition, a site like this is NOTHING without the members who actually create the content that makes the site - the site. You do things that violate the collective "will" and everything collapses.

I've donated to the site, and had intended to make that a regular occurrence. But, events that have occurred recently have made that extremely unlikely. Comments like these just reinforce how the owner seems to put his personal agenda ahead of the users of this site.

Robin - you don't create the content here and are not responsible for it. It's a forum. The users are responsible for their own comments. If a pinball company can't handle comments in a public forum, then they should probably find a different business. In fact, by trying to "protect" them, you hurt OUR/Pinside's credibility and the company you're trying to protect.

I like pinball and a lot of other fun and legal things to do, its too bad some of them are verboten topics here.

Limiting topics in the Off Topic area is kind of funny in itself.

I agree, I went ahead and blocked all the OT posts so I won't be tempted to respond to any of them.

Thanks for your input.

I know a couple forums that require a specific access request to their off topic forum and the only rules are no porn, explicit profanity or attacking each other.

This sounds like the best solution. Post a link to that forum and start an off topic thread about people who like pinball and guns. Problem solved.

Well being the mod referred to I think I can explain. It's not taking a side what it is doing is preventing members from trying to take over a threads entire discussion. An opinion can be made and explained adequately all while letting others chime in and allowing the thread to move on. Sure negative speculation can be made regarding a new project without having staff chime in. However, when someone goes on and on about it that is when staff may jump in and intervene. I've chimed in plenty of times to ask for members to let the discussion move on even when I agreed with their position.

We are for all pinheads and pinball in general. We want all these manufactures to make games that pinball addicts love. While not perfect, I can tell you the entire staff loves pinball and do the very best we can. Robin was correct IMO that you just can't please everyone. IMO the way the site is run is why many of us love the site it's not something to fear. Sure some will choose to go to a different forum because this is not their style and that is totally understandable. A primary goal is to keep the site available to pinheads of all walks of life, men, woman, and even youngsters.

Thanks for your insights, I appreciate your posts and some things said make a lot of sense. I'm trying not to choose sides and I agree that the manufacturers oughta be strong enough to survive some discussion on an internet forum.

However, I'm also trying to look at this from the perspective of fellow pinheads and people new to the hobby or new to the site. They will read these speculative threads and what kind of message will they get? The first pages of such topics are often good discussion, but after x amount of posts we often see these threads turning sour. As you may all know by now, I'm trying to run a positive pinball site. Not all rainbows, but generally a positive vibe.

Another point is this. I do like the added value of industry people posting here on Pinside and I know that some of them will stop (or already have stopped) posting here due to a lack of civility and/or moderation. That's really too bad because I really like reading their posts and if we turn these people away because we want to allow a small vocal group to continually spread negativity about them or their companies then it's a miss for Pinside, I think.

Again, I'm not saying Pinside should "go to bed" with these manufacturers, and good critique of their products is awesome and will lead to better games, But I guess what I'm saying is that a bit of responsibility with regards to what you post would go a long way.

I like this idea and will give it some thought. We already run two topics (Skit-B and PPS) with "updates only" and I feel these are great and we should extend this. The big difference between your idea and what we currently have is that our updates are all lifted quotes from actual threads and not simply a soapbox thread for the manufacturer.

As for the firearms topics and the "Off Topic" section. First of all, I think some of the greatest topics on Pinside were actually OT topics and the section brings a lot of depth to Pinside. Removing the OT section is a bad idea IMHO and I am not in favour of it.

Most people agree that politics and religion discussion should stay of Pinside. We (the moderators and I) have at one point agreed that firearms topics can be ranked as such as well (we have had our share of problems with these topics in the past). The problem with the Firearms threads is that they always tend to go south fairly quickly after opening. It's a heated discussion topic and it's fairly black and white too, apparently. What's more, moderating these threads takes up a lot of the (limited time) the Pinside moderation team has.

Some of you say that the firearms threads would not have any problems if only gun fans were allowed to post to them. A bit like the "Club" topics we have here for numerous games. You do realise that that means selectively moderating out the unpopular anti-gun sentiments? Is that what we want?

So the way I see it, we have three options. We either say: "gun talk is allowed on Pinside" and risk the same problems with these topics as we had last year. Or we say "Take the talk about guns somewhere else, like a guns site, and keep it off Pinside", which was our stance up until now. Last option we say "There can be one single firearms enthusiast topic in the OT section, but we a) disallow political discussion about guns in it and b) an enthusiast should moderate it to make sure the topic stays solely about the hardware, so to speak and not about gun law etc.

Choice one has been tried but doesn't work. Choice two is obviously the easiest way. But if enough people here would want a guns topic (and it seems like there a a bunch of you) we might try option 3. Emphasis on the word 'try'. I will take this up with the moderators.

I disagree. Donations have nothing to do with this. It has been clearly stated in the past that donations are optional and I have also said several times that donating members get no special treatment or added "rights". For example, I mentioned that you will get banned just as quickly if you misbehave.

Look, you donate because you appreciate the site for what it is, or you don't donate - it's a free choice.

That said, donations are definitely appreciated because running this site costs a lot of time and money.

But without "management", without moderation, the site will collapse too because it will turn into an ugly mess real quick.

That's too bad and I'm sorry to hear it. But I don't see this "personal agenda" you are referring too. My only "agenda" is keeping this site running and keeping it enjoyable to as many pinheads as possible (globally!).

See look at that! We had a civil discussion about civilly discussing guns. LOL! FWIW I don't think it's worth the trouble. I love me some assault rifles, but I have another spot to talk about that.

TheDude hit that nail on the head. The problem comes up when the same person(s) say the same thing over and over and over and over in the same or multiple threads. We get it! No need to repeat and restate a position.

Donations are not proof against the ban hammer...just ask me

keep it up, Robin.

As long as both sides of a discussion are treated equally I'm happy. But again we are good Dude.

Robin, I liked your comments back to me, keep up the great work!

Robin,
I really like some of the OT topics (guns included) that said I don't want to make life more difficult for you or the Mods (which I think do a very good job here) I appreciate this site very much! it's a home away from home for me, so if I have to limit some OT stuff to keep everything else going smoothly I am fine with that.
Thanks for the site!!

Maybe designate 1 mod to be the OT moderator and that is his/her only duty?

What I don't understand is why the gun folks can't talk about guns on a gun forum. There are plenty of those out there, and I doubt they ever get outbreaks of pinball discussion. If your gun buddy from Pinside isn't on your favorite firearm forum, help them get signed up. I have no problem with guns or the threads, but that recent one filled a fair bit of server disk space with images having nothing to do with pinball.

I want to reiterate the first comment here. Mr. Dude, there were times in that thread when you tried to shut myself or Kyle up after we responded directly to points made by others. I saw no examples of you intervening after they made points, only on our responses. It appears you are aware of this now, which is good going forward

I agree wholeheartedly, I actually care a lot about newbies to the hobby as well. And if not for threads on other sites and Usenet how many more newbies over the past 8 years might have blindly sent the last guy a deposit on the first MMr project? You know I just dropped over and checked and that website still amazingly lists his product as "In Production"?! I think it is as much of a public service to let folks know about all the new and exciting possibilities coming around the bend as it is for them to be warned that not all of these will pan out.

We live a sheltered life in pinballdom because there really hasn't been a big scam where anyone has run off with a bunch of other folk's money. Maybe forums like this are a part of the reason for that?

Perhaps us gun folk like to share our common passion for shooting sports with our friends here on pinside who are not on some other forum. It is the pro gun/anti gun political arguements that should be taken elsewhere. I love pins and guns which is to me a pretty cool combo worthy of sharing with like minded folk here.

Then the OT subforum should just go away. I just went over there and here's the highlights at the top right now...
Olympic hockey - There's other forums for that. In fact I'm sure NBC would rather have you on their site. No need to talk about that here... go there...
Cigars - Oh yea, no place for that here... there's other forums for that.
Beer/kegerators - Yea, beer and pinball have nothing in common. Go to a beer forum for that
Wrestling - other forums for that
Arcade games - KLOV for that - get outta here
Snow haters - ...
Roller coasters - Hey, I might need to pop into that one!

Anyway, I think you get my point. OT is just that... nothing to do with pinball. It's a place for those of us that love pinball but have other interests as well to discuss the non-pinball stuff. If you don't want to see it, don't read the thread. It's just that simple.

Jaz

How often do they talk about pinball on gun forums? Again, I don't mind the subject matter, but I can see how it can clutter up a completely unrelated forum, especially once the picture uploads start flowing. Each thread view is another download of every uploaded pic. Bandwidth is cheap, but still not free, and if the site owner isn't interested in firearms... and the history of fighting in the past... I think the decision to close was reasonable.

All I want to know is why, no matter what I do, I can't get my location to show up on here.

I don't think they do. That's my point. Here we have our established pin-buddies and if they also have similar other interests (cars, beer, hockey, cigars, guns, rolexes etc) then OT is a great place to share those interests. See a firearm link in OT and not a gun collector, then you probably don't need to open it, especially if the only reason you do is to start trouble.

not sure what you're not getting. the moderators here seem to have a (very wise imo) goal of avoiding topics that historically lead to drama and negativity and fighting. it generally works. it's not like the internet desperately needs another place to discuss guns or politics or whatever.

If people would follow the rules and not derail any firearm thread into political meyhem, there wouldn't be an issue. Someone who is not a shooting sport type just has to stick their nose in and start something everytime and that is why the thread derails into drama. OT is the perfect place for like minded individuals to connect. Example - a semi local pinsider posted in the last one and now I know he has yet another interest in common with me and yet another reason for us to get together outside the interwebz. Maybe go do some plinking, then back to my place to clean the guns, play some pins and have a beer. This is not a bad thing and should be allowed and encouraged.

exactly. is it really so hard to understand the mods not wanting to deal with the same crap over and over?

I've posted about this several times in the past month or so, but let me try and summarize my stance (and I will try and be as generic as possible):

1. No one should have to feel like they must respond with "the truth" to comments that are either trolling for "real/accurate" information or just trolling in general. It sucks that those people are allowed to post the same thing, over and over, without citation or consequence, and all it does it make the other party look bad. Rewarding trolls only breeds more and stronger varieties.

2. It sucks that people can ride the fine line of being antagonistic to other individuals, but when the bullied finally has enough invariably they are the ones suffering the consequences.

3. It sucks that the same people can derail the same subjects over and over and over again without consequence (other than to stifle further discussion in that thread because it got locked).

Now, to some extent, those are all internet Facts of Life. You don't need to tell me that. I've been on rgp since 92, and BBSing since 86. But Pinside is the first moderated forum I've seriously been a part of, and since moderation adds a human element (biases, be it for/against subjects or for/against other members), it encourages gaming the system more than a pure wild west environment would (somewhat ironically).

That all being said, there have actually managed to be a couple of recent WOZ threads that have been pretty drama-free, which has been a breath of fresh air. It's just unfortunate that that is the exception and not the rule, and probably ultimately the biggest turn off of participation.

People just want to have fun with their hobbies, not deal with frankly high-school-era shenanigans. That is what the goal should be: having fun, not allowing people to ride the line and get their jollies by trolling.

All IMNSHO of course.