(Topic ID: 142949)

Nagging Problem With My Bally Kiss


By Gatecrasher

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 37 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by homebrood
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

Man I'm about at my wit's end with my Kiss machine. Last year it started freaking out off after being on a half hour or so. The GI would dim and a loud buzzing noise would come from the speaker. The I could shut it off and restart it a few minutes later and it would work for a while and then do it again. I couldn't figure it out. I re-pinned all the connectors, checked the grounds, swapped-out boards, nothing worked. Then I tried turning the lights off and saw what was apparently happening. When it would go out there was a spark coming from the transformer windings. It was just by chance that I saw it at all.

So I looked around for another transformer. Kiss is an oddball and uses a 122-125 transformer and they can be hard to find. The only other Bally pins that used it were Future Spa and Space Invaders. Kiss also uses the AS2518-49 rectifier board. I've already replaced the rectifier board with an aftermarket one and nothing changed.

Then all of a sudden the lights started flickering and a real loud hum comes from the speaker. Even if I unplug the speaker wire from the sound board it still hums. The sound board is not bolted to the chassis ground either.

I started disconnecting connectors one at a time to see if I could narrow it down to something. The only thing that did anything was to disconnect the auxiliary lamp driver. I could at least play the game but the hum is still there. It gets worse the longer it is on until eventually the lamps start to flicker. The hum pulses with the playfield lamps.

I rebuilt the sound board and even swapped it out with another one but they both behave exactly the same. As I turn the "sustain" POT even slightly to the right I get a continuous tone. It didn't used to be that way.

Any ideas as to what to look at? I can't find anything wrong and it's driving me nuts.

#2 3 years ago
Quoted from Gatecrasher:

Even if I unplug the speaker wire from the sound board it still hums.

OK, with no speaker connected that tells you right there your hum has absolutely nothing to do with the soundboard or audio system. So what is actually humming? Usually it's the transformer if it is not the audio system. Open the game and put your ear nearby and give a listen.

#3 3 years ago

Have to agree, you have a transformer issue.

#4 3 years ago

Do you have a Motor Rewinding shop nearby?

They can hi-pot test the transformer and repair the flaky winding.

#5 3 years ago

I can open the coin door and stick my head inside and hear it down in the cabinet from what sounds like the speaker but not in the backbox coming from the transformer. This is the 2nd transformer too.

#6 3 years ago

Well after turning off all the noises in the room and lifting the playfield the buzzing was coming from the lane gate solenoid magnet and the coin door solenoid magnet. I disabled them and now the only sound seems to be a slight hum coming from the transformer in the backbox.

When I plug the speaker back into the sound card I get a louder hum from the speaker. I pulled the rectifier board off the plastic posts and moved it around and it affected the speaker hum some but doesn't get rid of it.

Maybe it is a bad transformer? It has a new aftermarket rectifier board.

Here are the test voltages at the rectifier board:

•TP1 = 8.43 VDC
•TP2 = 235 VDC
•TP3 = 16.75 VDC
•TP4 = 6.8 VAC
•TP5 = 48.8 VDC

No fuses are ever blown. It starts-up great and everything works but after a while the lamps begin to dim and pulse with the attraction lamps feature. The sounds get whacky too.

The machine has an new Ultimate MPU and rectifier board. I have swapped-out the solenoid and lamp driver boards with working boards from other machines. Same with the sound card. All the pins in the connectors have been replaced.

Next thing I'll look at are the test voltages on the rectifier board and solenoid driver before and after things start to go downhill.

I am definitely open to any suggestions of things to try or look at from others on here too.

#7 3 years ago

Wow, now when I hit the pop bumpers the slingshots and ball ejector actuate. When I actuate the flippers the pop caps fire.

#8 3 years ago

I'm standing here next to the machine when all of a sudden the transformer starts humming a lot louder.

Here are the test voltages at the rectifier board:

•TP1 = 3.9 VDC
•TP2 = 225 VDC
•TP3 = 14.45 VDC
•TP4 = 6.4 VAC
•TP5 = 45.1 VDC

#9 3 years ago

Following with great interest.
Wow.

#10 3 years ago

Definitely sounds like the transformer but I'm a novice.

#12 3 years ago

Well I think I'll take Vid's advice and give this place a call tomorrow and see if they can take a look at both transformers.

http://www.magneticcomponents.net/index.html

I have my old Kiss transformer sitting in a box. Both have Pin Logic Direct Connect rectifier boards wired to them.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from Gatecrasher:

•TP1 = 3.9 VDC

Value here should be 5VDC +/-10% (4.5VDC-5.5VDC) That's really low

#14 3 years ago

It seems unlikely that 2 transformers would be bad.

Have you repinned every connector in the backbox and on the rectifier board?

Is every board tied to the same ground in the backbox?

#15 3 years ago

I found it hard to believe two transformers would be bad too. That's why I'm at a loss. I've re-pinned some of the connectors twice now. I've checked the grounds. Even put a new plug on the power cord.

Tomorrow I'm removing the Pin Logic rectifier board and replacing it with a different aftermarket brand I have here. That's about the last thing I can think of to do. The thing starts out good but then after it is on a while starts to crap out.

I would think if it was the transformer that it would be bad from the instant I power it up. The only thing I can think of that would cause the transformer to start buzzing after it heats up is the rectifier board. I've swapped out all the other boards with brand-new Altek boards and they didn't behave any differently.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Value here should be 5VDC +/-10% (4.5VDC-5.5VDC) That's really low

I think so too. Before it goes bad the TP1 voltage is 8.4 volts which is high.

Something isn't right and it's starting to point towards possibly being the rectifier board. That's what regulates that voltage.

I'll find out later today when I swap it out with a different one.

#17 3 years ago

Test your voltages at the transformer. Test when first turned on, and test again when the buzzing happens. If you see that the 5 volts has dropped on the rectifier board, but everything is still the same on the transformer, you should have some answers.

#18 3 years ago

Seeing 7 -8 volts on tip 1 is not uncommon, but 3.9v is way too low

#19 3 years ago

Groundloop, and feedback in these Ballys can be a bugger. My Skateball had this problem. I buffed up every single ground point, (board grounds, ground straps, etc) and most of it went away, but not all. There are a bunch of ground straps around the coin door, signaling that the designers thought this was a problem area.
Yours sound like something heating up, but hard to believe that 2 Transformers would do the same thing. Good luck, and I hope you find the problem.

#20 3 years ago

The thing is this are the exact symptoms I had with the other transformer and rectifier board last year. I thought I had it fixed when I installed the new transformer and rectifier board but now it's back. The same crap!

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from Gatecrasher:

tried turning the lights off and saw what was apparently happening. When it would go out there was a spark coming from the transformer windings.

Quoted from Gatecrasher:

The only thing that did anything was to disconnect the auxiliary lamp driver. I could at least play the game but the hum is still there. It gets worse the longer it is on until eventually the lamps start to flicker. The hum pulses with the playfield lamps.

TP1 = +6.5 vdc (AS2518-49 version, feature lamps) Yours is way low

Hmmm. Clues? Could something be wrong with the aux lamp driver that is doing something to rectifier board? Seems the only voltage that is way off.

#22 3 years ago

When it starts buzzing, pull power from the Aux Lamp, then pull from lamp board.

#23 3 years ago

The auxiliary lamp drive board is disconnected and has been the entire time. At first it appeared it might have something to do with the issue but the problem still occurs without the board connected. I can disconnect the sound card and the coin door too and install all-new Altek aftermarket boards and still have the problem after the machine sits a few minutes.

It happens after the machine warms-up.

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from Gatecrasher:

The auxiliary lamp drive board is disconnected and has been the entire time. At first it appeared it might have something to do with the issue but the problem still occurs without the board connected. I can disconnect the sound card and the coin door too and install all-new Altek aftermarket boards and still have the problem after the machine sits a few minutes.

That's really freaking strange. I know you know your way around these machines very well, so I can understand your frustration. Did you get to test the transformers yet?

#25 3 years ago

Well I just removed the Pin-Logic rectifier board and installed a new Rottendog rectifier board. No change. The hum appears to still be present. One thing that is weird is when the sound card is plugged in now the chimes are incomplete during start-up. When I actuate the flippers the lights flicker with them.

Here are the test voltages at the Rottendog rectifier board:
•TP1 = 7.8 VDC
•TP2 = 228 VDC
•TP3 = 14.7 VDC
•TP4 = 6.6 VAC
•TP5 = 48.0 VDC

#26 3 years ago

Well, I'm going to go through every connector pin again.

#27 3 years ago

what happens if you leave the metal guard off the transformer? it not bent in too close is it?

#28 3 years ago

After messing with this machine off and on all day yesterday I replaced a bunch of connector pins and tried to go about things as systematically as possible to try and figure out WTF is going on. I even looked at the metal guard on the transformer like you mentioned wiredoug. I was open for anything at this point.

I always had less than optimal sound from the soundcard, even when the machine was working properly. The lamps would freak-out after the machine was on for a while until I unplugged the auxiliary lamp driver board. Then everything seemed fairly-stable (or at least I thought it did).

So now after replacing the rectifier board and re-pinning the connectors the machine plays great again. As soon as I try it with the auxiliary lamp driver though it starts out good but then the lamps start to freak-out like it did before. The sound board no longer works at all. All I get is one tone at start-up and that’s it. I already replaced the caps and the connector pins so I think there is something wrong with the proms or something.

So I removed the sound card from my Harlem Globetrotters and installed it in the Kiss. It works fairly-well although the tones could probably be a little better but it functions and you can tell the tune is the song “Shout It Out Loud” at the end of a game. One thing that is weird though is when I boot the game up I get a continuous tone from the soundcard until the boot sequence is complete. There is something wrong there. The hum is almost totally-eliminated though.

Everything else on the machine works perfect. I've had it on for 24 hours now without the auxiliary lamp driver and it's still good. When I turn the machine off and try it with the auxiliary lamp driver, it starts out good and the K-I-S-S flashes correctly. But after a minute or two some of the lights go out in the K-I-S-S and then the thing finally craps-out and all the playfield and backbox lamps flicker and go faint.

So I’m pretty-sure I have a bad flip-flop or some other microprocessor (or something I haven’t replaced) going bad on the auxiliary lamp driver board. I’ve already re-capped it and replaced the connector pins. So I'm going to buy a new Alltek auxiliary lamp driver board and am also looking around for another AS-2518-50 sound card or have someone look at the two I have. The sound cards still bother me because something still isn’t kosher with them either. But the machine is up playing great which is some definite progress from where it was.

#29 3 years ago

Hey man, I can rework those -50 sound boards for you.
Have you got the bolt sets and lift channels back in stock?

#30 3 years ago
Quoted from Riptor:

Hey man, I can rework those -50 sound boards for you.
Have you got the bolt sets and lift channels back in stock?

They are in progress as we speak but I probably won't have everything ready to sell for a few weeks yet.

Do you want to do a swap?

These boards need more than just the usual caps and connectors though. They may need amplifiers and proms too. I'm looking for a total rebuild to like-new condition so I won't have to mess with them again in this lifetime.

I wish someone would go ahead and make aftermarket versions of these.

#31 3 years ago

Be sure to check your Aux. lamp driver board. Had a Xenon that drove me and couple of my pals crazy with a this weird feedback hum due to a burned connector.
NOTE: noticed other posts where people have suggested this; please disregard.

#32 3 years ago

Ok...reaching into the past... Several years ago a local operator told me...when we were discussing KISS, that he had encountered a real bizarre problem and honestly I don't recall the specifics....bizarre...kind of sounds like what your are experiencing. All I can really remember is that the problem he had would seem to have nothing to do with the sound board, but in the end that's exactly what it was. Wish I could offer more info, but he had said that had never seen this before. Wish I could contact him but he died a few years ago.

#33 3 years ago
Quoted from Freeplay40:

All I can really remember is that the problem he had would seem to have nothing to do with the sound board, but in the end that's exactly what it was.

Quoted from Gatecrasher:

I rebuilt the sound board and even swapped it out with another one but they both behave exactly the same.

#34 3 years ago
Quoted from Freeplay40:

Ok...reaching into the past... Several years ago a local operator told me...when we were discussing KISS, that he had encountered a real bizarre problem and honestly I don't recall the specifics....bizarre...kind of sounds like what your are experiencing. All I can really remember is that the problem he had would seem to have nothing to do with the sound board, but in the end that's exactly what it was. Wish I could offer more info, but he had said that had never seen this before. Wish I could contact him but he died a few years ago.

After I repinned everything the original sound board wouldn't even work anymore other than one quick tone upon boot-up. Then I replaced it with a known working one from my Harlem Globetrotters and it works although it isn't perfect. I think it's because the jumpers are different for Globetrotters. But it works and the hum is gone so I think the sound card was bad. I even put a -32 sound board in and it works too although it doesn't sound like it should for Kiss of course.

In addition, the machine works perfectly now with the auxiliary lamp driver board unplugged and I had it on for 24 hours straight with no issues. Then I turn the machine off and plug in the auxiliary lamp driver and it will work for about 5 minutes and then everything goes crazy eights. The lamps all flicker and it spazzes out.

So I have ordered a new Alltek auxiliary lamp driver board. I still need to get the sound card working though or buy a different one because the one I'm using goes back into my Globetrotters.

So basically I think I have a problem with both the sound and auxiliary lamp driver boards. It seems hard to believe both would go bad but that's what it's looking like.

#35 3 years ago
Quoted from Gatecrasher:

They are in progress as we speak but I probably won't have everything ready to sell for a few weeks yet.
Do you want to do a swap?
These boards need more than just the usual caps and connectors though. They may need amplifiers and proms too. I'm looking for a total rebuild to like-new condition so I won't have to mess with them again in this lifetime.
I wish someone would go ahead and make aftermarket versions of these.

Sending a PM.

2 weeks later
#36 3 years ago

Well I just wanted to let everyone know that ALL of the problems I was having with this machine have been totally-eliminated!

The game plays fantastic (better than ever) and now after receiving my fully-rebuilt sound board from Riptor, it sounds better than it ever has too. He does quality work and I will be sending him more in the future.

I just wanted to thank everyone who helped out with this very frustrating technical repair. This is one of my "keepers" so I really wanted to get it fixed right and not have to revisit any of these annoying issues. It looks like the mission was accomplished.

Thanks again!

#37 3 years ago

Sweet! Way to hang in there, you truly can't stop the Gatecrasher!!!

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