Hi,
Just to let gottlieb fans know that i recently finished my gottlieb 80B cpu board project and am now taking pre-orders for them. It's been a long old road to get to this point, but it feels good. The cost is £180 plus shipping to your country. Assembled and tested.
More info here on my blog - http://mypinballs.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/gottlieb-system-80b-cpu.html Please contact me directly if you are interested.
Thanks
IMG_2884.JPGIMG_2804.JPGIMG_2803.jpg
IMG_2388.jpgDefinitely go to a ribbon cable connector for driver connection. Those double sided edge connectors are getting pretty scarce as are replacement contacts. With proper pin out, can work with driver board from Ni-wumph.
Wouldn't take much in added parts to make this work with 80 and 80A's. Main difference is to replace the the 80/80A 7448 with a CPLD that can toggle between 7-segment decoder and 80B display driver. Then go through buffer (as it appears to on your board).
And, you really do need some sort of 40 pin interconnect for diagnostics. We all know how reliable them 6532's are - especially as the stock of residual ones dries up. If you can, break the three IRQ's apart and tie them into 3-input AND gate to facilitate narrowing down which 6532 in the weeds. That shared IRQ is one of the hardest things about testing these boards.
With right choice of parts, can use the still manufactured Western Design Center 65SC02 and with a bit of talking, maybe talk them into making 65SC32's (I tried...and failed).
And... is this going through the Gottlieb lawyer if being sold in US?
Cool, The 40 pin driver connector option does seem like a nice future proofing option and makes sense to make it compatible with other boards around. That's probably the last addition i'll add to the rev3 boards, but i will keep evolving it and improving it over time.
Regarding the IRQ line and diagnosis. I built in the extra diagnosis LED for leon's test rom and so plugging that in work a treat. It helped greatly whilst developing the board to, so big thanks to him for creating that. Also having a proper IRQ test pad also helped. If you look closely you will see an IRQ led to, but i decided that wasn't really needed with the above stuff. However having said all that i do like your idea of the AND gate and 3 separate leds 
Going on the 'to look at' list for future.
Interesting about the 65SC02 chip. I had been using various sources for originals so far and experimenting with clone chips. They have odd part numbers but work ok.
Jim,
This is outstanding! Thanks for the heads up. I hope this brings a bunch of dead machines back to life!
--Scott
Good to see 40 pin header to replace that tough to find double sided interconnect.
Seriously consider separating the three IRQ lines. You are using -OLD- 6532's and the shared IRQ makes it much more difficult to locate the offending part.
Also consider a few more debug issues --
1 - a jumper or switch setting to completely disable on board ROMs
2 - a 40 pin connector to match original TC1 would be nice (either DIP or header) to allow test connection (and related to Ken's question).
May also sell these to 80 and 80A people if you were to add selectable display drivers. Very easy to do with a simple PLD.
Thanks again for the message and ideas. I'll look into the extra options as you say. TC1 debug header would be nice on this run definitely.
The lockup 'reset' board is included as an option on the cpu board design- parts on top right of board. We haven't populated it here in uk on games so far as once all upgrades (5v regulator, 12v cap, ground upgrades, connectors) are done and the new board is in everything is super reliable. Obviously that doesn't stop riots going dead, but using leon's test rom and the on board led makes identification of the bad one much easier.
The best thing to do with the old lockup check board is throw it away! It causes more issues than it solves
Quoted from Whysnow:very cool!
when is the plan for the final revision to be ready?
Pre-Ordering for the rev 3's is open now. The run is 25. I am providing them as assembled and tested, but will also supply them as kits if there are people wanting a little project
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=301263324208
Here's the full list of improvements for my board so far:
- Decent ground anchors
- Test point pads for common signals and voltages
- Leds for common signals and voltages
- Reduced component count
- Built in 'lockup' reset board option
- Improved and simplified cpu reset section
- On board reset button
- Plate through design,
- Socketed ICs
- Timekeeper 'No external Battery' Ram option or standard 6264
- Standard 0.15" Power connector option
- On board Jumper Config for NC or NO Slam Switch
- HASL Lead Free Edge Connectors
- Ni-Wumpf Driver Board Connector option for REV3
Post edited by applejuice: added jumper config optin that was missed off by mistake, remvoed gold plated connectors option after dicsussion on subject
sorry to ask, but is the plan to incorporate the tips from G P E on rev 4 of the board?
I want to support, but I also want the best board possible.
Quoted from Whysnow:sorry to ask, but is the plan to incorporate the tips from G P E on rev 4 of the board?
I want to support, but I also want the best board possible.
I am seeing if i can incorporate the test /debug connector onto the rev3 design for the 25 run and the 40 pin aux driver connector is in place. I think as discussed above I have pretty good diagnosis for riots on board with the leon test led and the test pads but will look at other additions including 80A and 80 support in the future. The plan was always to make a nice and stable 80B board first then evolve it over time.
great.
As an owner and lover of both TX and Robowar I will be buying 1.
Do I have to order through ebay or can we do something direct? I am not good on conversions, what is the price in USD including shipping to US?
Quoted from Whysnow:great.
As an owner and lover of both TX and Robowar I will be buying 1.
Do I have to order through ebay or can we do something direct? I am not good on conversions, what is the price in USD including shipping to US?
You are welcome to deal with me direct. Payment via paypal makes the most sense. I would prefer that, as i don't have to worry about the ebay fees. I have the ebay ad just to get the word out really. The dollar to pound exchange rate isn't helping me much at the moment for international orders. With tracked shipping to USA its currently working out at $300 + $25, though that will alter with daily exchange rates. I would like to be able to offer it for less than that really so need to see what i can do this end.
Robowar and Tx are both my favs. A friend of mine just got a robowar this week and I was helping him get it going last night. Love the sounds
Just made my preorder. Gotta say thanks to Jim. Super helpful in answering my questions about the board and how it will work with my Goonies project. He's even making custom ROMs for it!
Stellar communication and service. Thanks!
Ok, after looking at exchanges rates and parts suppliers i'm going to offer the rev 3 run (23 left) for $240 plus shipping to US customers. The UK/Europe price will be lowered also to £140. This will include all the improvements mentioned above including the gold plated edge connectors.
I am taking pre-orders on a 50/50 split, so 50% upfront and then 50% when the board is ready to ship.
Quoted from G-P-E:Do not gold plate the edge connectors!
Just curious as to why this would be bad. I thought gold was just about identical in conductivity. Does it alter the resistance enough to make a difference? Hoping to learn something new.
Quoted from mikeatsparkys:Just made my preorder. Gotta say thanks to Jim. Super helpful in answering my questions about the board and how it will work with my Goonies project. He's even making custom ROMs for it!
Stellar communication and service. Thanks!
Happy to help out on the goonies pinball project! What a great theme and idea
Quoted from thedefog:Just curious as to why this would be bad. I thought gold was just about identical in conductivity. Does it alter the resistance enough to make a difference? Hoping to learn something new.
Dissimilar metals...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info
Quoted from thedefog:Just curious as to why this would be bad. I thought gold was just about identical in conductivity. Does it alter the resistance enough to make a difference? Hoping to learn something new.
As Chris said -- don't use dissimilar metals on connectors.
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/Information.asp?region=140
From an old Intel study: "Studies show that fretting occurs when tin comes in pressure contact with gold or any other metal. Tin debris will transfer to the gold surface and oxidize. Continued transfer will build up an oxide film layer. Mixing gold and tin leads doesn't always cause an immediate problem, the problem usually occurs over time."
If OP uses gold plated edge connector fingers on the new board then the end user would need to either convert to gold plated contacts or be stuck with cleaning the oxide off the edge connectors.
Can avoid oxidation by using gold plated contacts but switching from tin plated to gold plated contacts is VERY expensive. For the single sided edge connectors, tin plated contacts cost roughly $0.10 each and the gold plated are about $0.80 each...about 70 contacts so it would run about $50 to repin single sided edge connectors. Then you have the double sided Molex edge connectors -- gold plated ones are now unobtainable (tin plated are almost unobtainable).
Ed
Ok,
The current finish for all my boards is HASL (Lead Free) - Hot Air Solder Levelling and that is something i've used for years and years without any issues.
Now, because the 80B boards have the older '80s' computer type edge connectors I was wondering about the pads tarnishing over time with just the HASL finish. I wanted to make this latest version the best possible and so looked at other options.
An alternative finish Electroless Nickel Immersion Gold (ENIG) was recommended to me by the board manufacture as an possibly alternative and one that should maintain a better connection over time, be less likely to mark etc. See here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroless_nickel_immersion_gold
I thought that this is the process used on high quality audio leads, top end graphics cards with edge connectors etc so all would be good. It is not a free process and adds to the cost of making the boards, but i thought it would be worth it to make a better product.
We use ENIG on all our boards, it's very good to use when you have fine pitch BGA's. Not needed on this board.
You also don't want this gold plating finish on the Gottlieb edge connector - this would be asking for trouble in the future. Might check with your board maker to see which type of tin finish they have available to meet RoHS and still not oxidize with age.
To me, the shared IRQ when a problem is major a time consumer to resolve, I would highly favor Ed's suggestion on adding a triple AND gate to easily identify the problem chip. If the 6532 riots are in sockets that would be helpful.
With the 6532 riots dwindling in supply it would be good if many approached Western Design Center to inquire when the replacements will be available.
Quoted from minnesota13:To me, the shared IRQ when a problem is major a time consumer to resolve, I would highly favor Ed's suggestion on adding a triple AND gate to easily identify the problem chip. If the 6532 riots are in sockets that would be helpful.
With the 6532 riots dwindling in supply it would be good if many approached Western Design Center to inquire when the replacements will be available.
All Riots are socketed using high quality turned pin dil sockets.
Regarding the riot debug testing if/when needed. I mentioned above about the including of the LEON test led on board. Not sure if people have heard about the test rom that he created? Basically he wrote a test rom that you plug into the rom 2 position and it then tests the board like on a early 80's Bally. 1 Flash for each system on the board,
CPU ->RAM ->Switch RIOT ->Solenoid/Sound RIOT->Display RIOT.
Its a brilliant program and really helps quickly identify a bad component. I used it when building up my previous boards to test correct operation and also to check correct function of block bought riots form unknown sources.
Its freely available with all the test info here - http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leon_Borre_Gottlieb_System_80_CPU_Board_Repair
I will certainly contact Western Design Center about remaking the RIOT chip
I am very pleased to see this new design, well done! As an engineer i like the improved lay out, improved reset section and the use of a more modern memory in stead of a 5101 so we can use an NVRAM device like Dallas, Ramtron or Simtek more easily. Also the resetboard components are integrated, very nice. I agree on remarks from others about the plating, it can cause problems over the years but other than that it suits to my taste. If not already mentioned or designed like that: did you think about a jumper or dipswitch to override the slam switch input for older sys80B's if desired?
Related to the subject (i don't want to hijack your topic)....i did write a few test Eprom's inspired by Leon, also for Gottlieb system 80. There is a small movie from it at youtube (from an earlier version, i added some more things later). It does a more thorough job testing the memories, it tests also the switchmatrix inputs and the socket for PROM2. No problem to share it with you.
I do not understand 90% of what you guys are even saying, but i am very thankful for all the work you do and knowledge you are willing to share.
When this board gets perfected, I am in!
Quoted from MarAlb:I am very pleased to see this new design, well done! As an engineer i like the improved lay out, improved reset section and the use of a more modern memory in stead of a 5101 so we can use an NVRAM device like Dallas, Ramtron or Simtek more easily. Also the resetboard components are integrated, very nice. I agree on remarks from others about the plating, it can cause problems over the years but other than that it suits to my taste. If not already mentioned or designed like that: did you think about a jumper or dipswitch to override the slam switch input for older sys80B's if desired?
» YouTube video
Thanks for your comments. Much appreciated, as often with these projects you are on your own for a long time, and there is usually plenty of head scratching along the way. A long part of the development of this board was to get a more modern ram working nicely, not just use the old 5101.
To answer the slam switch question. Yes i have included a jumper to configure for either scenario. I have it IN on my 80b games, but it can be left out for later games etc so i don't have to worry about the cabinet slam switch anymore (I should have included that on my list of improvements!!)
Quoted from MarAlb:Related to the subject (i don't want to hijack your topic)....i did write a few test Eprom's inspired by Leon, also for Gottlieb system 80. There is a small movie from it at youtube (from an earlier version, i added some more things later). It does a more thorough job testing the memories, it tests also the switchmatrix inputs and the socket for PROM2. No problem to share it with you.
» YouTube video
Sounds great. I'd love to try it out and see the additional debug functions. Send me a private message to arrange sending me the rom file. Thanks
Quoted from Whysnow:I do not understand 90% of what you guys are even saying, but i am very thankful for all the work you do and knowledge you are willing to share.
When this board gets perfected, I am in!
Haha same here. I already preordered one for my Goonies project. He's also burning custom ROMs for display text changes that I need. Very cool.
Quoted from mikeatsparkys:Haha same here. I already preordered one for my Goonies project. He's also burning custom ROMs for display text changes that I need. Very cool.
Text changes nearly done Mike!
Now i've got a few hours this afternoon to mess with my Indy Jones Software Project (Thread on it over here - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/indiana-jones-software-rewrite-the-journey)
Nice work.
FWIW, I don't think Leon's ROM will help when one of the 6532s is holding onto the IRQ line. But since you have the 6532s socketed, that should ease troubleshooting. I shouldn't see a 6532 with the IRQ leg clipped.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info
Quoted from ChrisHibler:Nice work.
FWIW, I don't think Leon's ROM will help when one of the 6532s is holding onto the IRQ line. But since you have the 6532s socketed, that should ease troubleshooting. I shouldn't see a 6532 with the IRQ leg clipped.
There is no ISR in Leon's test Eprom. It only tests the first addresslocation of each RIOT. But it cannot distinguish the 3 RIOT's from eachother, in theory with a stuck chipselect circuitry, you can test 3 times the same RIOT. It also cannot detect a broken addressline trace. If a trace is broken you write and read data to a certain address but not the address you think you are writing to. This are amongst other things the weaknesses in Leon's test Eprom. When using Leon's test Eprom or mine, it is always a good thing to check the IRQ line with a logic probe or oscillscope. If it is stuck to GND, you have to examine the RIOT's. But in many cases, if the IRQ line is stuck, the memory test also fails from the RIOT causing the stuck IRQ line.....
MarAlb, I hope you don't mind but since you posted here about your test ROM (I didn't know you were on Pinside) I mentioned your test ROM in my thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/interest-check-gottlieb-universal-tester-leon-design -- let me know if that's any problem at all.
Nice to see new Gottlieb MPU boards being created & also better ways to diagnose new or old boards via Leon's or Marco's test ROMs.
---
http://www.pinitech.com - "Pinball Inspired Technology"
Kits, upgrades and test equipment for pinball machines
Quoted from MarAlb:When using Leon's test Eprom or mine, it is always a good thing to check the IRQ line with a logic probe or oscillscope. If it is stuck to GND, you have to examine the RIOT's.
Indeed, The IRQ line is included in my set of Test points. The full set of them is:
TP1 : +5V
TP2 : GND
TP3 : Reset
TP4 : Clock
TP5 : IRQ
TP6 : R/W
TP7 : Reset 2 (Not currently used)
Quoted from applejuice:Text changes nearly done Mike!
Hell yeah!
Quoted from G-P-E:2 - a 40 pin connector to match original TC1 would be nice (either DIP or header) to allow test connection (and related .
Now added as a 40 pin ribbon header and labelled as J8 - debug/mod header Should allow anyone to connect up to the board as they see fit. The pins are compatible with the tc1 ordering.
Board files are now with the pcb manufacturer. Edge connectors will be standard HASL (Lead Free) finish.
Quoted from applejuice:Now added as a 40 pin ribbon header and labelled as J8 - debug/mod header Should allow anyone to connect up to the board as they see fit. The pins are compatible with the tc1 ordering.
Board files are now with the pcb manufacturer. Edge connectors will be standard HASL (Lead Free) finish.
Very nice! Looking forward to see your results!
Quoted from crassmage:this may just be what I need for my Bone Busters, what is that in US dollars?
Quoted from applejuice:Ok, after looking at exchanges rates and parts suppliers i'm going to offer the rev 3 run (23 left) for $240 plus shipping to US customers. The UK/Europe price will be lowered also to £140.
I am taking pre-orders on a 50/50 split, so 50% upfront and then 50% when the board is ready to ship.
Update:
My order of 25 rev3 boards arrived today. This is how they turned out.
IMG_2956.jpgIMG_2957.jpgIMG_2958.jpg
Now starts the assembly and testing. I will be sending them out in the order that people payed the deposits on. Once i have a board ready I will contact you for the remaining amount and the shipping. Then once that's received they get sent out
If you haven't ordered one yet and would like to get one now whilst i have them now's the time to contact me.
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Leeds
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