(Topic ID: 58362)

My WoZ experience, first impressions, and lighting


By markmon

6 years ago



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  • 299 posts
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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by GaryMartin
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There are 299 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 6.
#251 6 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Na, you're jumping to conclusions.... i don't think I ever used those words....
I thought you might need a bit of a cleanse....
this was a pretty pleasant conversation about GI lighting till you jumped in with your whiny diatribe about what YOU think usually derails threads (eventhough no such drama had occurred)....

Might want to check what's in the photo, what the filename of that photo is called, and how you applied it to a specific individual. It may be passive-aggressive, however that doesn't make it any less offensive or insulting. But... so as to not be "over-sensitive", I do agree that the matter should be dropped out of respect for the original topic in this thread.

And along those lines... I'm thinking that if this is as good as it's going to get, then a few spotlights may indeed be needed. Probably not as many as Markmon used... and I think I'd consider different positions than what I've seen on the two example machines so far, simply because I wouldn't want to block any inserts, hang over the playfield, or obscure artwork unless absolutely necessary.

I wonder where you can buy the larger black spotlight reflectors JJP is using?

#252 6 years ago

And yet another good thread derailed . it looks like not enough people were put on vacation..

#253 6 years ago
Quoted from Sunfox:

Might want to check what's in the photo, what the filename of that photo is called, and how you applied it to a specific individual. It may be passive-aggressive, however that doesn't make it any less offensive or insulting. But... so as to not be "over-sensitive", I do agree that the matter should be dropped out of respect for the original topic in this thread.
And along those lines... I'm thinking that if this is as good as it's going to get, then a few spotlights may indeed be needed. Probably not as many as Markmon used... and I think I'd consider different positions than what I've seen on the two example machines so far, simply because I wouldn't want to block any inserts, hang over the playfield, or obscure artwork unless absolutely necessary.
I wonder where you can buy the larger black spotlight reflectors JJP is using?

Since most LEDs are very directional, I never use those "cone of shame" reflectors on spots. Use some black shrink tubing to make sure the socket stays tight and plug something like a CT Superbright or Ultrabright into it. It's much less obtrusive and in black they mostly dissappear.

#254 6 years ago

It's not derailed Sunfix and Gary have it back on track. Installing lights is not my forte so I hope they add spots by the time Hobbit is out.

#255 6 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Installing lights is not my forte so I hope they as spots by the time Hobbit is out.

Don't worry David. The lights are bright enough for the kind of ambient ceiling lighting you and I have in our gamerooms. The people that are saying it is too dark to see the ball in dark rooms are playing with no lights whatsoever (or hardly any light) in their gamerooms.
Though, this should not be confused with me saying that the GI is bright enough to be optimal because I am definitely not saying that.

#256 6 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

By the way, the GI *does not* shut off during lights out multiball. Only the inserts go out. So the spotlights, if tied to GI, would stay on the entire game anyway.

So what does your game look like during "Lights Out" multiball? Is the effect lessened by having all those spotlights on? It would seem to me that the mode would be optimally effective in a room with very little ambient light. By just having those two spotlights on and very dim GI, it makes for a very fun and challenging mode.

#257 6 years ago

Is there no goal for lights out/on mode? It would be awesome if every switch you hit would turn 1 led on/off depending on the mode and to complete it you have to light/unlight all LEDs. I just don't get the draw to lights out, and why people made a big deal out of it. Am I missing something?

#258 6 years ago
Quoted from BriGuy5:

Is there no goal for lights out/on mode? It would be awesome if every switch you hit would turn 1 led on/off depending on the mode and to complete it you have to light/unlight all LEDs. I just don't get the draw to lights out, and why people made a big deal out of it. Am I missing something?

If there isn't I hope we see some type of goal / progression in the future. Keith did just revamp the rules for Rescuse MB so I'm hopeful he will do the same for Lights out, Lights off and the two Munchkin modes. Keith is probably the king of rule sets with lots of depth and games with unique modes so I'm as WOZ code continues to develop we will see more and more of that.

#259 6 years ago

Praps(sic) JJP will just give each customer one of their logo neon signs to hang near the machine to take car of the GI Issue.

#260 6 years ago

It would be pretty sweet if they could make a kit of spotlights that could be added to the game with pass-through connectors of some sort to allow the spotlights to tie in with the existing lights for effects purposes. I have no idea any of the electronics (ie - current handling capability) behind the GI circuits but I thought something like that could be feasible in theory. I'm sure someone else has probably already mentioned this and I haven't seen it.

#261 6 years ago
Quoted from SteveP3:

It would be pretty sweet if they could make a kit of spotlights that could be added to the game with pass-through connectors of some sort to allow the spotlights to tie in with the existing lights for effects purposes. I have no idea any of the electronics (ie - current handling capability) behind the GI circuits but I thought something like that could be feasible in theory. I'm sure someone else has probably already mentioned this and I haven't seen it.

The posts by Dkpinball discuss exactly this.

#262 6 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

So what does your game look like during "Lights Out" multiball? Is the effect lessened by having all those spotlights on? It would seem to me that the mode would be optimally effective in a room with very little ambient light. By just having those two spotlights on and very dim GI, it makes for a very fun and challenging mode.

Lights out multiball turns off the insert lights so you have to guess what to shoot at. It is not intended to be a dark multiball like afm strobe mb. Evidence is that the spotlights and GI remain on. Since the game was designed to be played in a well lit room, my spotlight kit lights the game in the dark in a similar manner. So lights out mb with my kit in the dark works as intended.

#263 6 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Since the game was designed to be played in a well lit room

Where exactly was this design parameter actually stated by JJP?

#264 6 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

Where exactly was this design parameter actually stated by JJP?

I think it's implied given the fact that the GI makes it impossible to play in a darkened room.

#265 6 years ago

Played WoZ at PAPA today and although I really liked the game I think it is an issue that Markmon brings up with the lighting. It's a shame to see people putting out around 8k for a machine and having to mod it for lighting. The two games at PAPA were $2 per play, went to charity so didn't mind paying $2, but what got me, other than the lighting, was the fact that the "red slipper" on the flippers was already off and laying on the playfield. A tech had to remove the piece. Again, for 8k should pieces already be falling off the game?

#266 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I think it's implied given the fact that the GI makes it impossible to play in a darkened room.

But to say it was "designed" to be played in a well lit room was implying intent. That would be the same as if you guys were all buying cars and when they were showing up they all had flat tires. I would say that was a defect, a fan might say "well, maybe our cars were designed to just drive them slowly along the side of the road, but I will design a kit of 4 new tires to sell to everyone that wants to drive faster than 5MPH...".

I'm 100% not trying to stir anything up, but as soon as the buyer(s) agree to accept $200 add-on mods to fix this problem that will be the only solution you will get.

#267 6 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

I'm 100% not trying to stir anything up, but as soon as the buyer(s) agree to accept $200 add-on mods to fix this problem that will be the only solution you will get.

Really? that's not the way it sounds to me.. you already have a price tag on mod that doesn’t exist
and may not be needed as the problem is still being addressed. your analogy is a little off as well.
you can still play the game just fine in any other condition then pitch blackness. news flash not everyone like to play in a pitch black room.

#268 6 years ago

Not true. It is hard to play the game in anything but a well lit room let alone pitch black. JMO though as an owner.

#269 6 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Lights out multiball turns off the insert lights so you have to guess what to shoot at. It is not intended to be a dark multiball like afm strobe mb

Interesting. I like this idea but I think it would be better if the whole game went dark. But that's just me. But then again it wouldn't go well with the "lights on" multiball.

#270 6 years ago
Quoted from tonycip:

you can still play the game just fine in any other condition then pitch blackness. news flash not everyone like to play in a pitch black room.

Granted it's a bit subjective, but I disagree.

I played one in an arcade where they only had about 1/3 of the overhead lights on and it was noticeable harder to see the PF clearly.

Now, I noticed this with a few other games as well, but with other (older) games, the insert lighting (incans) was a lot more subdued and it wasn't nearly as big of an issue.

#271 6 years ago

Played it this weekend at PAPA....I'm completely unbiased, I enjoy LEDs on many of my machines, but damn dude that was dark and bright at the same time; not a good combo.

#272 6 years ago
Quoted from meSz:

the "red slipper" on the flippers was already off and laying on the playfield.

The red flippers really are an eye sore. I am seriously considering buying a WOZ and the first thing I would do is remove those flipper for regular ones.

Parts break and I'm sure JJP would send out a replacement asap.

#273 6 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Played it this weekend at PAPA....I'm completely unbiased, I enjoy LEDs on many of my machines, but damn dude that was dark and bright at the same time; not a good combo.

I played it earlier today and this sums it perfectly.

#274 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I played it earlier today and this sums it perfectly.

Rob,
What was your overall take on the game GI aside?

#275 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I played it earlier today and this sums it perfectly.

No opinion otherwise? Give us your honest take, how many games did you get on it.....

#276 6 years ago
Quoted from tonycip:

Really? that's not the way it sounds to me.. you already have a price tag on mod that doesn’t existand may not be needed as the problem is still being addressed. your analogy is a little off as well.you can still play the game just fine in any other condition then pitch blackness. news flash not everyone like to play in a pitch black room.

Years of debate on RGP and I thought I worded my responses carefully but I missed on my last one. You are correct, no price has been placed on what this mod will cost to correct this situation.

My point is this is the first game (to my meager pinball knowledge) that will apparantly require a mod to be playable in pretty much any lighting condition accept for "well lit from overhead". So in fact it does seem to be either an unadvertised design intention, or a pretty big design oversight (or miss).

I sincerely hope that software adjustments can drive up the power to the existing G.I., and all the owners that have already received their games will be ok with aligning all the G.I. tubes that were assembled backwards or twisted or whatever that issue was. But to be clear, mods should be something the people do to their games to enhance it's functionality or appearance, NOT to make it playable. IMHO.

#277 6 years ago

You do not have to stick WOZ outside in the daylight to play it. I have ours in a fairly dark room, indirect overhead lighting and it plays fine. I would like it a bit brighter, sure, but I haven't installed 1.18 yet even. (downloading now)

You can't play it in the dark. Just a little bit of ambient light and at least everyone here is able to play it fine.

#278 6 years ago
Quoted from tonycip:

Really? that's not the way it sounds to me.. you already have a price tag on mod that doesn’t exist
and may not be needed as the problem is still being addressed. your analogy is a little off as well.
you can still play the game just fine in any other condition then pitch blackness. news flash not everyone like to play in a pitch black room.

It's not a matter of pitch black. If lighting is just low, it's hard to play.

#279 6 years ago

I'll post pics tomorrow. Took some tonight of the WOZ next to the AFM. Light in the room is a pair of 15 watt white flourescents, two 40 watt blacklight flourescents and an indirect LED strip around three walls in the room that slowly rotates through different colors (not white).

It's plenty bright to play great by. After installing 1.18 tonight I hit a new high score for myself breaking the 500k barrier.

#280 6 years ago

No opinion otherwise? Give us your honest take, how many games did you get on it.

Ice, the line was long for WOZ at the PHOF today. We got tired of waiting in line to play. I put 10 bucks in it today .

IMG_4207.JPG

#281 6 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

No opinion otherwise? Give us your honest take, how many games did you get on it.....

I got probably 8 games on it today. Not nearly enough to give much of a meaningful opinion. I am here for two more days so I'll get more plays on it before commenting on game play.

GI is very dim. Inserts are very bright and colorful. Clear coated cab was very nice and ridiculously smooth to the touch.

Monkey mech was broken.

The phof ambient lighting, which is neither bright nor very dark, was sufficient to play and see the ball. It just seemed to have way too much contrast this way. the GI doesn't mesh well with the super bright inserts. I thought coin taker superbrights were bright but these are even brighter. I did not notice any flicker effect at all. Nice.

LCD looks pretty good. Maybe even better than I thought it would. It really doesn't play a big role when you are playing the game though.

A lot of my other impressions are really subjective so take with a grain of salt, but I don't really care for the sounds or call outs. The music isn't bad but seemed a bit repetitive, but that might be due to the fact that so many of my balls seemed to last a few seconds. Lol. No ball saver on this one and that sucks. My wife had a game that lasted maybe 25 seconds total for all three balls. Yet she was able to score 26 million on IM

There was a gap up at the top of the pf glass where a channel normally would meet the glass. Strange.

That's it for now. Hope to get more time on it tomorrow

#282 6 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

Years of debate on RGP and I thought I worded my responses carefully but I missed on my last one. You are correct, no price has been placed on what this mod will cost to correct this situation.
My point is this is the first game (to my meager pinball knowledge) that will apparantly require a mod to be playable in pretty much any lighting condition accept for "well lit from overhead". So in fact it does seem to be either an unadvertised design intention, or a pretty big design oversight (or miss).
I sincerely hope that software adjustments can drive up the power to the existing G.I., and all the owners that have already received their games will be ok with aligning all the G.I. tubes that were assembled backwards or twisted or whatever that issue was. But to be clear, mods should be something the people do to their games to enhance it's functionality or appearance, NOT to make it playable. IMHO.

Meh, there are a good number of williams games with super dark/unplayable playfields as well. Judge dredd is a pretty big culprit of this. Heck, so is STTNG. Gotta mod those games to make them playable in a dark room for the most part.

#283 6 years ago

The thing that I was taken aback on was the fact that the LCD has zero reflection on the playfield glass. I thought the glare would be terrible, like a dmd, just a lot bigger, but there's not. I'm happy playing it with just regular glass and not invisaglass.

#284 6 years ago

I think LCD technology's built-in limited vertical viewing angle helps cut reflections on the glass significantly.

#285 6 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

Meh, there are a good number of williams games with super dark/unplayable playfields as well. Judge Dredd is a pretty big culprit of this. Heck, so is STTNG. Gotta mod those games to make them playable in a dark room for the most part.

Monster Bash was the darkest game we owned. I tried everything to brighten up this game. The only thing that fixed it was selling it

#286 6 years ago

I have STTNG and MB in my gameroom right now. I don't consider either of them hard to see the ball in play as compared with when I played WOZ at the show, and I have done no lighting mods to either of them. I almost wonder if it's more of an issue with the inserts being too bright and overpowering the G.I. on WOZ? Are there any settings in the software to turn down insert lighting intensity?

#287 6 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

I have STTNG and MB in my gameroom right now. I don't consider either of them hard to see the ball in play as compared with when I played WOZ at the show, and I have done no lighting mods to either of them. I almost wonder if it's more of an issue with the inserts being too bright and overpowering the G.I. on WOZ? Are there any settings in the software to turn down insert lighting intensity?

I think the brightness of the inserts is a big issue. That is one of the reasons I like the star post mod as it brings some GI up to the brightness of the inserts.

#288 6 years ago

I like the star post mod, looks good Taylor.

I think if this problem doesnt get solved by JJP, we will see a lot of different approches by home users to solve the low GI issue. The good thing is LEDs are so small you could stick them anywhere..

#289 6 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

Meh, there are a good number of williams games with super dark/unplayable playfields as well. Judge Dredd is a pretty big culprit of this. Heck, so is STTNG. Gotta mod those games to make them playable in a dark room for the most part.

Those games are almost 20 years old. Plus they didn't have LED technology then. Sterns new games are bright and have LEDs. JJP games have to match this or exceed.

#290 6 years ago

Those games are almost 20 years old. Plus they didn't have LED technology then. Sterns new games are bright and have LEDs. JJP games have to match this or exceed.

That is a good point and I do agree on the older williams games. They did have LEDs though, but side point

Monster Bash was the darkest game we owned. I tried everything to brighten up this game. The only thing that fixed it was selling it

lol. Here is a pic of one locally LED'd up and brighten'd. Not the best pic ever, sorry

Monster_Bash_PF.jpg

#291 6 years ago

Star post update looks great.........

So Jimmy and Rob are partying in Vegas together! Can't wait to hear the updates, I'm gonna be in Vegas next month for football draft.......

#292 6 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I'm gonna be in Vegas next month for football draft.......

Let me know I will see if I can make it down . Vegas is only 1.75 hours away for me .

#293 6 years ago

I'll post pics tomorrow. Took some tonight of the WOZ next to the AFM. Light in the room is a pair of 15 watt white flourescents, two 40 watt blacklight flourescents and an indirect LED strip around three walls in the room that slowly rotates through different colors (not white).
It's plenty bright to play great by. After installing 1.18 tonight I hit a new high score for myself breaking the 500k barrier.

Pics as promised. The AFM is lit with CT Superbrights and a 5050 blue strip on the backboard. Has mirror blades installed as well.

20130811_221933.jpg 20130811_221944.jpg

#294 6 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

That is a good point and I do agree on the older williams games. They did have LEDs though, but side point

Are you saying they used LEDs for GI and inserts on Williams pins?

#295 6 years ago
Quoted from GaryMartin:

and a 5050 blue strip on the backboard

Whats this and where can I get it? Your AFM is rocking!

#296 6 years ago
Quoted from PappyBoyington:

Are you saying they used LEDs for GI and inserts on Williams pins?

No, obviously not... I'm gonna step out of that debate since it is going nowhere and the point was missed. I'd rather keep this on track.

That AFM looks pretty sweet! Lovin that strip!

Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Whats this and where can I get it? Your AFM is rocking!

You can get a plug n play strip at http://www.pinballbulbs.com/products/blue-no-solder-led-light-strip-williams-wpcwpc95-games

#297 6 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Whats this and where can I get it? Your AFM is rocking!

Thanks, that's a basic 12vdc 5050 LED strip. I get them from Aliexpress in China. They're available in a half dozen colors or you can just get RGB versions, and with a cheap (under $3) controller you can create any shade you want. You can also get it off Ebay. The stuff isn't expensive and looks like this:

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/5m-one-roll-5050-SMD-60LEDs-m-led-strip-non-waterproof-warm-white-color/701799_308760530.html

You can cut that strip where you see the copper solder pads, every third 5050 LED. Size it to fit for what you want. Most of the strips come with a double sided adhesive on the back to mount it.
There's sixteen feet of it on a roll.

Use a cheap controller that will run 12vdc and you get basically any color you want. When the pin powers up, it reverts to last color set so it always powers on right.

Basic controller:

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/IR-24-key-controller-for-RGB-5050-strip-DC5V-12V-24V-input-please-advise/701799_326652778.html

2 weeks later
#298 6 years ago

Played yesterday. $1.00 a play at my local amusement facility. No $2.00 for 3 plays though, bummer.

Pros:
So fun
Beautiful
Love seeing a new wide body

Cons:
Monkey broke (like others)
Dark/Bright at same time (As said already)
Software was weak (could be old version not sure)
- Wizard kick out hole did literally nothing but play a barking sound effect and kick out
- Shots for middle right flipper were limited to skill shot as far as I could tell

All in all I still really want one, I just hate that they had to put out such an un-tested game with so many bugs and breaking parts/toys.

I pumped $15 into it, hopefully they take that as a good sign.

#299 6 years ago
Quoted from Chitownpinball:

Monkey broke (like others)
Dark/Bright at same time (As said already)
Software was weak (could be old version not sure)
- Wizard kick out hole did literally nothing but play a barking sound effect and kick out
- Shots for middle right flipper were limited to skill shot as far as I could tell

Yep, shots to the Wizard's throne room just have Toto bark and kickout. It does add letters to "WIZARD" but nothing happens when you fill it (that I have seen) Seems to just be a place holder at this point.

The upper right flipper has a couple of things going on that many people miss besides the (hard) skill shot between the bumpers. Bank shots off the right hand bumper and off the witch sensor are about the only way to intentionally get at least the "R" in Rainbow and sometimes the "A" as well. Also the "Collect" for Horse of a Different Color is shot by raising the right flipper and shooting a bank shot off the bottom of it from the lower left flipper, going back to the shooter lane. (Though I usually find I can make it easier as backhand shot off the lower right flipper) Lastly, when starting Munchkinland modes, you want to hit Rainbow targets to increase the target value. The ball is held on the magnet above the UR flipper at the start of the mode, so you can quickly bank into Rainbow targets. It's a timed mode so the faster the better.

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