Wizard of Oz
Jersey Jack, 2013Quoted from dkpinball:They have guys who can fix it too. I was hoping someone here might tell me if there's an engineer at JJP who is open to trading some e-mails about it. Or I guess I was hoping that someone at JJP reads this thread.
I will go on the JJP board right now and direct their attention to your questions.
Quoted from dkpinball:They have guys who can fix it too. I was hoping someone here might tell me if there's an engineer at JJP who is open to trading some e-mails about it. Or I guess I was hoping that someone at JJP reads this thread.
They do and they do!
Just drop Jack an email directly and forward him to this thread and explain that you'd love to help. He is open minded to a little criticism especially when it comes with possible solutions like you're offering.
Quoted from Snowdale:Shit ain't figured out yet.... Where's Pinchroma???
Taking a little hiatus from pinside....
Last post here:
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-happened-to-gambit3113/page/2#post-1030086
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Did JJP end up replacing them under warranty? Hopefully its just an issue with possibly too much power being directed at the boards?
Yeah, they will send out replacements. In fact I need to call them right now to get another batch, because in the time since I posted that 4 of my PCBs had died, a 5th went out and I'm now out of spares again. It was a GI PCB and died right after the update, which makes me wonder if the increased brightness could lead to an even more premature LED PCB death? Maybe that's why they have been kept slightly dim so far?
As for reasons, I have heard 3 so far from 3 different people at JJP. Jack has pointed at the power supply. Butch said it was related to the wiring harnesses that chain the PCBs together. And Jim told me in some detail about how it had to do with a fault in the the process of baking the LED PCBs in China. There have been multiple versions of the PCBs also -- a WOZ owner/tech who had a prototype let me use some of his PCBs last time I ran out, and their component layouts are different from the ones on my machine.
Quoted from dkpinball:The end result would be Markmon’s spotlight idea, but the spotlights would be RGB and would color change with the rest of the GI - at least on the lower playfield.
I know this sounds good on paper. But it won't be. I have extensive experience with lighting games using spotlights for dark rooms. And adding colored bulbs to spotlights results in horrible visibility. And based in the color, massive strobing. The only colors that I've found usable are: cool white, warm white (ugly result though), pinball bulbs purple (not ablaze hot pink purple), pinball bulbs pink. Further, when lighting for a dark room, you do not want the spotlights to flash or go out during game play. It contributes to the led seizure effect. I'm convinced pinballs are designed to be played with ambient room lighting.
Quoted from markmon:I know this sounds good on paper. But it won't be. I have extensive experience with lighting games using spotlights for dark rooms. And adding colored bulbs to spotlights results in horrible visibility. And based in the color, massive strobing. The only colors that I've found usable are: cool white, warm white (ugly result though), pinball bulbs purple (not ablaze hot pink purple), pinball bulbs pink. Further, when lighting for a dark room, you do not want the spotlights to flash or go out during game play. It contributes to the led seizure effect. I'm convinced pinballs are designed to be played with ambient room lighting.
It would mimic whatever JJP programs for the GI colors. Wouldn't this be better than static spot lights that are always on including times during "lights out"?
But each individual GI bulb is addressed separately like an insert - it's not like how Stern does it. So, even though most GI bulbs will have the same color for normal play, when there's a lighting effect or a flasher effect or certain modes (ie. "lights on" mode) they will be different colors or brightnesses from each other.
I still think tying into the controlled spotlight circuit is the best bet, as those are programmed to turn on and off appropriately, and are just one color - white.
Quoted from Sunfox:I still think tying into the controlled spotlight circuit is the best bet, as those are programmed to turn on and off appropriately, and are just one color - white.
We were playing Gweempose's WoZ a couple nights ago and we never once saw the spotlights turn off in the game. Not even during "lights out" mode. When do they turn off?
The idea is really to keep the lighting theme, but just add more to it. The GI is white quite a bit of the time. When they change colors it's purposeful, part of the game. I figured it would be best to just add more of the kind of light the designers intended rather than overriding it all.
That being said, the choice would be in the hands of whoever is installing the mod. If they want blazing white, they install blazing white. If they want color matching they use the more expensive color option.
There was a funny moment when I first went to scope the LED board. I needed to get the probe onto one of the points on the RGB LED, I was looking at the board when the LED went full white and it blinded me.
I just want to compliment all on the civil tone around here these days - just a calm and informative discussion about creative options for fixing/enhancing a WOZ. I would have thought this impossible a week ago! Of course, the entertainment value isn't quite there... 
Quoted from iceman44:I've got it all figured out.....hang on.....gotta finish my last brew and I'll explain!
Have another beer Ice, Jack said today on the JJP site that 1.17 is going to address G.I. it may not the final tweak but he is aware of G.I. issues and working on it.
1.17 is scheduled for tomorrow.
Now back to cold ones.
Quoted from BigOrange:I just want to compliment all on the civil tone around here these days - just a calm and informative discussion about creative options for fixing/enhancing a WOZ. I would have thought this impossible a week ago! Of course, the entertainment value isn't quite there...
Must comment that it's nice to be able to go into a WOZ thread and find actual on-topic discussion, rather than the conversation being steered way off course. It can't be a coincidence that certain posters are on forced vacation.
Quoted from BigOrange:I just want to compliment all on the civil tone around here these days - just a calm and informative discussion about creative options for fixing/enhancing a WOZ.
I was thinking the same thing yesterday.
Quoted from TaylorVA:I need 12v for some mods. Anyone know a good place to grab it on WOZ? Thanks.
I suggest the connector at the coin door that connects the 12v LEDs in the coin inserts. It's a 4 prong connector with a yellow and black set of wires.
Quoted from dkpinball:The idea is really to keep the lighting theme, but just add more to it. The GI is white quite a bit of the time. When they change colors it's purposeful, part of the game. I figured it would be best to just add more of the kind of light the designers intended rather than overriding it all.
No, I disagree. The idea is to light the playfield so you can see the ball and play the game. Bright colored lights won't do it. The current GI, while dim, serves the purpose of awesome lightshow just fine. The addon is to make the game playable. Color changing or heavily colored lights (blue, green, red) will not help with game visibility or ball tracking.
The purples are very nice on this game. They do a nice job of making the playfield glow without making it look like over headlights are turned on. And they do it without looking purple or making it hard to track the ball. If you use whites, you'll see but the playfield won't glow and it will look like the overhead lights are turned on. You lose some of the magic you gain playing in the dark. On paper, purple sounds ridiculous. You have to see the installation to understand.
Quoted from ChadH:We were playing Gweempose's WoZ a couple nights ago and we never once saw the spotlights turn off in the game. Not even during "lights out" mode. When do they turn off?
Can anyone answer this question?
Quoted from markmon:I'm convinced pinballs are designed to be played with ambient room lighting.
You're right.
But *I* like to play in the dark... even my other games (that have better GI) would be candidates for your extra spotlight treatment...
Thanks for posting it!
Quoted from markmon:No, I disagree. The idea is to light the playfield so you can see the ball and play the game. Bright colored lights won't do it. The current GI, while dim, serves the purpose of awesome lightshow just fine. The addon is to make the game playable. Color changing or heavily colored lights (blue, green, red) will not help with game visibility or ball tracking.
The purples are very nice on this game. They do a nice job of making the playfield glow without making it look like over headlights are turned on. And they do it without looking purple or making it hard to track the ball. If you use whites, you'll see but the playfield won't glow and it will look like the overhead lights are turned on. You lose some of the magic you gain playing in the dark. On paper, purple sounds ridiculous. You have to see the installation to understand.
You have the game and I don't, so I have to defer to you on what looks best. My proposed solution was in answer to the question of "The GI is underpowered, how do we get more of the designed GI light onto the playfield?"
It's up to the community really. If there's call for amplifying the current GI then I'll keep working on it otherwise I'll defer to your solution.
Quoted from markmon:I suggest the connector at the coin door that connects the 12v LEDs in the coin inserts. It's a 4 prong connector with a yellow and black set of wires.
No, I disagree. The idea is to light the playfield so you can see the ball and play the game. Bright colored lights won't do it. The current GI, while dim, serves the purpose of awesome lightshow just fine. The addon is to make the game playable. Color changing or heavily colored lights (blue, green, red) will not help with game visibility or ball tracking.
The purples are very nice on this game. They do a nice job of making the playfield glow without making it look like over headlights are turned on. And they do it without looking purple or making it hard to track the ball. If you use whites, you'll see but the playfield won't glow and it will look like the overhead lights are turned on. You lose some of the magic you gain playing in the dark. On paper, purple sounds ridiculous. You have to see the installation to understand.
Listen to this...he knows what he is talking about. I haven't seen his WOZ (yet!), but all his machines have better than standard lighting with LEDs.
<edited>
Quoted from markmon:On paper, purple sounds ridiculous. You have to see the installation to understand.
I agree, purples especially the 2 LEDs that don't ghost look great in some spot lights. That said, everyone has different tastes. I have tried both and in some pins prefer to have the 2 main playfield spot lights be white for better visibility and less color saturation all over the place since I use colors in some of the other GI areas.
Post edited by The_Dude_Abides : Seems I missed understood sorry.
My proposal was to add two more RGB LEDs to each sling GI board and put them up onto the playfield with spots just like Markmon did. You wouldn't be able to change the color. It would always do what the game GI does. My solution requires new PCB's, custom made LED spots, etc.
The only difference between my solution and his is that mine mimics the GI light show. His stays lit the whole time with a single color.
Mine would be more effective mimicking the game. It doesn't meant that it would be the best way to keep the ball visible.
Markmon's solution would be the best way to keep the ball visible and is much less effort / expense.
I'm still going to put mine together because, well, it's what I do, man. Markmon's solution is complete, proven, inexpensive, and worth investment.
My alternative solution is an experiment. I'll try it and we'll see. I'm amplifying what's already there. If what's there is "bad", then I'm just amplifying "bad". We'll see.
Quoted from markmon:I suggest the connector at the coin door that connects the 12v LEDs in the coin inserts. It's a 4 prong connector with a yellow and black set of wires.
No, I disagree. The idea is to light the playfield so you can see the ball and play the game. Bright colored lights won't do it. The current GI, while dim, serves the purpose of awesome lightshow just fine. The addon is to make the game playable. Color changing or heavily colored lights (blue, green, red) will not help with game visibility or ball tracking.
The purples are very nice on this game. They do a nice job of making the playfield glow without making it look like over headlights are turned on. And they do it without looking purple or making it hard to track the ball. If you use whites, you'll see but the playfield won't glow and it will look like the overhead lights are turned on. You lose some of the magic you gain playing in the dark. On paper, purple sounds ridiculous. You have to see the installation to understand.
Thanks.
Quoted from BigOrange:I just want to compliment all on the civil tone around here these days - just a calm and informative discussion about creative options for fixing/enhancing a WOZ. I would have thought this impossible a week ago! Of course, the entertainment value isn't quite there...
As an outsider to past nasty debates (and hopefully therefore an impartial 3rd party observer) as much as the JJP haters get thrashed for causing problems on the forum it does seem like the JJP crusaders deserve a lot of the blame. What is actually refreshing about this thread is that actual, legitimate problems with the game can be discussed without the people reporting them being shouted out of the room as "haters", etc.
If the JJP version of Mr. Scott "I'm giving her all she's got Captain, but it's no use!!!" can't solve this issue it will be pretty interesting to see the reaction from the company. I personally think the solution should come from them instead of 3rd party add-ons, but that is just my opinion.
Quoted from rockrand:Liittle confused about the light strip in the back can you link to that as well and how it is hooked up would be great,
I'm confused about this as well. I looked hard, I didn't see any white lights that ever went off or on. There are 3 white spotlights on the game and they glow full time.
Quoted from viper001:I personally think the solution should come from them instead of 3rd party add-ons, but that is just my opinion.
I agree, that's why I'm a little hesitant to put a lot of time into this.
Quoted from viper001:As an outsider to past nasty debates (and hopefully therefore an impartial 3rd party observer) as much as the JJP haters get thrashed for causing problems on the forum it does seem like the JJP crusaders deserve a lot of the blame. What is actually refreshing about this thread is that actual, legitimate problems with the game can be discussed without the people reporting them being shouted out of the room as "haters", etc.
If the JJP version of Mr. Scott "I'm giving her all she's got Captain, but it's no use!!!" can't solve this issue it will be pretty interesting to see the reaction from the company. I personally think the solution should come from them instead of 3rd party add-ons, but that is just my opinion.
I think you pretty much nailed it.
There was a lot of taunting back and forth from both sides of WOZ buyers and the so called WOZ haters which got nasty and personal in some cases. The lighting issue will be interesting to see how or if it gets resolved. You can have the best built item in the world but an engineering oversight or missed spec part make build quality a moot point if performance suffers.
Some of WOZ H8TRS may have been over the top but some JJP supporters were just as bad.
1.18 is out! Would someone be willing to please take a before (1.14 or 1.16) and another after 1.18 to view the lighting difference?
Thank you 
The light strip I simply daisy chained to the white light strip in the backbox that illuminates the translite above the monitor. Light strips are all meant to be daisy chained with an in and and out. I simply soldered two wires from the existing light strip in the head and ran to my light strip.
My light strip was wired a special purple that is similar to the spotlight color and was done via a resistor. I can get a couple light strips ready for those that can solder up at pinballbulbs.com - probably be around $25. If anyone is interested, I'll get those prepared.
I am still working on a full drop in kit. But the "cheap" method will still be somewhat expensive. Parts alone is around $70 when you figure in the voltage conversion, bulbs, 9 spotlights, light strip, hex posts, wire, connectors. I installed a second kit last night. Took about 2.5 hours. The drop in kit will probably take about 2 hours to install. The drop in kit will probably take about 2 hours to make and package. But it will be a solder free solution for those that don't want to assemble this themselves. Probably have to be around $120 each. So far, all I need is to source the coindoor connectors for the coindoor lights.
One more thing. The one-color spotlights do not impact the general light show. They shine on the playfield not on the plastics where the light show exists. I have spotlights in a similar manner (just not as many) on all my games. The light show on Stern LE models looks the same with or without them. It just lights up the middle playfield where there are no lights.
Quoted from viper001:As an outsider to past nasty debates (and hopefully therefore an impartial 3rd party observer) as much as the JJP haters get thrashed for causing problems on the forum it does seem like the JJP crusaders deserve a lot of the blame. What is actually refreshing about this thread is that actual, legitimate problems with the game can be discussed without the people reporting them being shouted out of the room as "haters", etc.
As a not-so-unbiased contributor who wasn't put on vacation, that's not how I see it at all. Typically, what happened first is someone (usually one of only a few someones) posts some jab at WOZ, JJP, or WOZ fans. Typically it's one of the following:
* Controversial statement or opinion with no provided reasoning, and personal opinions rarely qualified as such
* Negative rumor or innuendo with no backing facts
* Information that is provably false
* Provocative statement that has nothing to do with the topic at hand
These are usually worded so as to purposefully get a rise out of WOZ/JJP fans, who admittedly can get a bit over-emotional on responses, but also kept vague enough so that the poster can backtrack and claim ignorance when the topic inevitably gets out of hand.
When you say "actual, legitimate problems with the game can be discussed without the people reporting them being shouted out of the room as "haters", etc.", if you look closer the people typically being shouted out of the room as "haters" did not have "actual legitimate problems". I'm not aware of any WOZ fan that has taken someone with a legitimate game problem, or a legitimate opinion that they were willing to support, or a legitimate piece of information not based entirely on hearsay, and shouted them out of the room.
I have certainly never done that - if anything, my arguments with individuals have been about trying to get them to simply *support* their statements, not prevent them from making them.
Quoted from Sunfox:As a not-so-unbiased contributor who wasn't put on vacation, that's not how I see it at all. Typically, what happened first is someone (usually one of only a few someones) posts some jab at WOZ, JJP, or WOZ fans. Typically it's one of the following:
* Controversial statement or opinion with no provided reasoning, and personal opinions rarely qualified as such
* Negative rumor or innuendo with no backing facts
* Information that is provably false
* Provocative statement that has nothing to do with the topic at hand
These are usually worded so as to purposefully get a rise out of WOZ/JJP fans, who admittedly can get a bit over-emotional on responses, but also kept vague enough so that the poster can backtrack and claim ignorance when the topic inevitably gets out of hand.
When you say "actual, legitimate problems with the game can be discussed without the people reporting them being shouted out of the room as "haters", etc.", if you look closer the people typically being shouted out of the room as "haters" did not have "actual legitimate problems". I'm not aware of any WOZ fan that has taken someone with a legitimate game problem, or a legitimate opinion that they were willing to support, or a legitimate piece of information not based entirely on hearsay, and shouted them out of the room.
I have certainly never done that - if anything, my arguments with individuals have been about trying to get them to simply *support* their statements, not prevent them from making them.
Stay on track here, this thread has a lot of actually great info on the WoZ lighting, fixes, improvements, suggestions etc
Quoted from PanzerFreak:It looks like 1.18 has really helped improve GI lighting as well as correct several other issues
That is great news. Just like the early weak flipper issue, it appears JJP is listening and responding. Very encouraging. I'm late in the run for WOZ ECLE, but a Day 1 for THLE and it is good to know that my Hobbit will receive this same tweaking as the inevitable issues arise.
Quoted from Sunfox:As a not-so-unbiased contributor who wasn't put on vacation, that's not how I see it at all.
That's cuz you still have your WOZ goggles on!
So v1.18 did brighten the GI. Now you can see it as part of the light show. Especially in the back through the ramp. Looks nice. However, it does absolutely nothing to light the playfield in the dark.
By the way, the GI *does not* shut off during lights out multiball. Only the inserts go out. So the spotlights, if tied to GI, would stay on the entire game anyway.
Quoted from lowepg:for YOUR contribution....
And a nice big bump for the rest of the valuable contributions....
So, personally calling me a douchebag is an example of one of your valuable contributions to WOZ threads? Did I call you out specifically? Have I ever called anyone names?
But, whatever. Time to play pinball.
Quoted from markmon:So v1.18 did brighten the GI. Now you can see it as part of the light show. Especially in the back through the ramp. Looks nice. However, it does absolutely nothing to light the playfield in the dark.
Makes you ask woz-up with the GI?
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Dude at what point will you admit you love coming in to start shit with everyone as well.
Lighten up Francis.
Quoted from Sunfox:So, personally calling me a douchebag is an example of one of your valuable contributions to WOZ threads?
Na, you're jumping to conclusions.... i don't think I ever used those words....
I thought you might need a bit of a cleanse.... 
this was a pretty pleasant conversation about GI lighting till you jumped in with your whiny diatribe about what YOU think usually derails threads (eventhough no such drama had occurred)....
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-woz-experience-first-impressions-and-lighting/page/5 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Boston, MA