(Topic ID: 58362)

My WoZ experience, first impressions, and lighting


By markmon

6 years ago



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  • 299 posts
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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by GaryMartin
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There are 299 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 6.
#151 6 years ago

Yeah, he said "It will be 1.16 and should be tomorrow." Not definite, but likely.

#152 6 years ago

Tomorrow... ish.

#153 6 years ago
Quoted from Sunfox:

Tomorrow... ish.

Actually it was posted tonight. Downloading 1.16 now!

#154 6 years ago

Looks like everyone is downloading......slowly.

#155 6 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

Looks like everyone is downloading......slowly.

51% now. Who's hoggin the bandwidth?!?!

#156 6 years ago
Quoted from GaryMartin:

51% now. Who's hoggin the bandwidth?!?!

I started off pretty fast but it slowed considerably as more people have joined in. Just about done.

#157 6 years ago
Quoted from BriGuy5:

There weren't so many to look at, only around 20. Quick adjustments took me all of 15 mins to line everything up. Obviously it would take longer to be drilling new pilot holes and changing the location completely, but I didn't feel the need to do so. All of them could be rotated enough to shine thru the light tube, if not directly centered. Didn't affect the light output as long as the led was on the edge of the post, just underneath instead of on the side of it.

This is not solely directed at you, but

The rationalization here for shitty QC is astounding....

Guaranteed if Stern released a pin where nearly every GI light had to be adjusted because the assemblers was drunk/blind/stupid there would be a roar of folks pillorying Stern for their labor practices, poor workmanship, shoddy QC, etc, etc, etc.

So much for,

"Well, they are making them very slow, but the EXTREME QUALITY is worth it"

#158 6 years ago
Quoted from GaryMartin:

Actually it was posted tonight. Downloading 1.16 now!

"Ish" doesn't always have to mean LATER!

#159 6 years ago
Quoted from stangbat:

Below is the quote regarding the GI redesign. GI was initially different, it was redesigned to use the same LEDs as the inserts.

Begin quote:
So about six weeks ago we find out that the LED's we want to use for
our GI Lights are like $6 each after sourcing them and promises of a
lower cost.....don't worry, they will be lower in quantity we are
told..... John makes a controller board (that's like a month or so out
of his life) and they work great - oops...the supplier can save us a
few pennies under $6 each and we need 30+ of them.....and it's ten
weeks + to get them all of a sudden. Bad communications on the
supplier side but who's in any type of time sensitive project anyway?
We quickly switch to the LED we are using in the feature lights...Joe
redesigns the redesign the bracket, John creates a new board for them
and Jim the method to show the light on the playfield and John has to
design another completely different driver board to control
everything...oh...Keith has to program to the different firmware and
driver board too....tidbit huh - so - we have those LED's in stock,
boards are being made, Keith has to take five steps forward and a few
backwards and we get what we want in spite of suppliers who are not
time and price sensitive....there's a tidbit for you.

Ok, so from the above quote and the earlier video showing the old GI system which is nice and bright (http://www.youtube.com/embed/iFHX0P_KFvg?autoplay=1&rel=0) it would seem that JJP had something that worked really well but was swapped out because of price and time constraints. One would hope that, if the software fix doesn't provide adequate GI, they would consider going back to the earlier system for the Hobbit. Perhaps they could negotiate a better deal with the supplier now that they have more time. $6 each for 30 or so GI lights makes it $180 for the GI LEDs alone, I guess that's a lot but that early video did look good.

#160 6 years ago

I would caution using a video to judge how bright the GI is/was. Exposure is controlled entirely by the camera, and something dim can be easily made to look bright - or vice versa. For example, throughout most of that video you'll note that the inserts are completely blown out to white, while much of the GI in the same shot continues to show color - indicating that it's dimmer than the inserts.

#161 6 years ago
Quoted from Sunfox:

I would caution using a video to judge how bright the GI is/was. Exposure is controlled entirely by the camera, and something dim can be easily made to look bright - or vice versa. For example, throughout most of that video you'll note that the inserts are completely blown out to white, while much of the GI in the same shot continues to show color - indicating that it's dimmer than the inserts.

Ah...yes, that's very true, I hadn't thought of that, we will have to wait to hear from someone who has seen the earlier and later GI systems in person.

#162 6 years ago

The GI is supposed to be brighter in 1.16 but the change is totally unnoticable to me.

#163 6 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

This is not solely directed at you, but
The rationalization here for shitty QC is astounding....
Guaranteed if Stern released a pin where nearly every GI light had to be adjusted because the assemblers was drunk/blind/stupid there would be a roar of folks pillorying Stern for their labor practices, poor workmanship, shoddy QC, etc, etc, etc.
So much for,
"Well, they are making them very slow, but the EXTREME QUALITY is worth it"

A couple adjustments to the LED's is not deal breaker but it should be corrected on the line. I'm sure that JJP has saw this thread as well as others and will be ensuring that workers check the alignment of the LED tubes. However, this game is still made better then any other pinball machine in my opinion. These minor issues will be corrected as production continues to ramp up. The game has only been being made for a few months yet there have only been a few issues which are listed below.

1. Sound going out on game: Corrected in 1.16 update
2. LED boards going out: Corrected with higher power LED PSU's
3. Alignment of GI LED's: Will likely be corrected through QC on the line

If this is the worst that has happened at this point that's not bad for a game as complicated and feature loaded as WOZ. Plus, JJP has been on top of every issue and has been providing excellent customer service. Even NIB machines will need minor adjustments from time to time, especially with many of them being shipped across the country which can lead to parts becoming lose. Heck, my NIB ACDC Premium (March 2013 run) had an LED bulb come out from the playfield on the first play, a piece of mechanical band fell off within the first 5 games, and I even had to bend a bracket for the playfield to properly rest in the game...after I corrected those issues the game has been rock solid.

#164 6 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

A couple adjustments to the LED's is not deal breaker but it should be corrected on the line. I'm sure that JJP has saw this thread as well as others and will be ensuring that workers check the alignment of the LED tubes. However, this game is still made better then any other pinball machine in my opinion. These minor issues will be corrected as production continues to ramp up. The game has only been being made for a few months yet there have only been a few issues which are listed below.
1. Sound going out on game: Corrected in 1.16 update
2. LED boards going out: Corrected with higher power LED PSU's
3. Alignment of GI LED's: Will likely be corrected through QC on the line
If this is the worst that has happened at this point that's not bad for a game as complicated and feature loaded as WOZ. Plus, JJP has been on top of every issue and has been providing excellent customer service. Even NIB machines will need minor adjustments from time to time, especially with many of them being shipped across the country which can lead to parts becoming lose. Heck, my NIB ACDC Premium (March 2013 run) had an LED bulb come out from the playfield on the first play, a piece of mechanical band fell off within the first 5 games, and I even had to bend a bracket for the playfield to properly rest in the game...after I corrected those issues the game has been rock solid.

You left off one item on the list:
4. Inadequate GI period.

I agree with the gentleman you were quoting in your reply. I'm as happy as the next guy that there is a new company making games but the amount of slack they are being cut is pretty amazing. If the GI is found to not be fixable a lot of folks have bought pretty expensive table that will need add-on lights just to be able to see the ball.

#165 6 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

You left off one item on the list:
4. Inadequate GI period.
I agree with the gentleman you were quoting in your reply. I'm as happy as the next guy that there is a new company making games but the amount of slack they are being cut is pretty amazing. If the GI is found to not be fixable a lot of folks have bought pretty expensive table that will need add-on lights just to be able to see the ball.

The game looks fairly bright in the videos I posted. The game is not as bright as my ACDC Premium but I would say no dimmer then my TZ, STTNG and even the LOTR that I used to own.

#166 6 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

2. LED boards going out: Corrected with higher power LED PSU's

Mine has the higher power PSU and I have had 4 LED PCBs die on me so far.

#167 6 years ago

We hear a lot about the LEDs that fail, how many have had their machine for a month or so without any LED issues?

#168 6 years ago
Quoted from bobbyconover:

Mine has the higher power PSU and I have had 4 LED PCBs die on me so far.

Did JJP end up replacing them under warranty? Hopefully its just an issue with possibly too much power being directed at the boards? Didn't Stern have a similar problem with early ACDC Premium runs with LED's going out? That was fixed in an update.

#169 6 years ago

So the only brightness feedback is from Markmon - No noticeable difference? Anyone else?

#170 6 years ago

None of mine have ever failed. I do wish the GI were brighter. I don't k ow if that would help though at this point. I think its just missing spot lights really. I'm gonna add them.

#171 6 years ago

I agree no noticeable difference in brightness at this point.

#172 6 years ago

Someone should make a mod spotlight kit with step by step instructions for those that would like their game a bit brighter. I'm sure a good amount of people would buy it.

#173 6 years ago

Tone down the inserts and the GI will look brighter. The inserts are the brightest I have ever seen and are blinding in the dark. In a well lit room the inserts are perfect and you don't need gi. Is there a way to turn down the inserts?

#174 6 years ago

In test mode can you test just the gi bulbs and do they go from dim to bright like on other pin tests of gi's?

#175 6 years ago

im interested to hear from someone if you can just test GI bulbs only....I would like to see WOZ like that GIs only with no inserts to see how bright they are standing on their own...

#176 6 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Someone should make a mod spotlight kit with step by step instructions for those that would like their game a bit brighter. I'm sure a good amount of people would buy it.

Quoted from markmon:

I am giving all this to pinballbulbs to make a WoZ brightening kit. Not sure when it will be available. However, if anyone wants to tackle this on their own, I'd be happy to share the very specific details of it all.

Currently in the works actually! A bit trickier than some of our other plug n play kits for WPC/Stern games, but we'll get it. Working to make it as plug n play as possible here with an easier install

#177 6 years ago
Quoted from scottc:

Tone down the inserts and the GI will look brighter. The inserts are the brightest I have ever seen and are blinding in the dark. In a well lit room the inserts are perfect and you don't need gi. Is there a way to turn down the inserts?

Exactly my thoughts

#178 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballBulbs:

Currently in the works actually! A bit trickier than some of our other plug n play kits for WPC/Stern games, but we'll get it. Working to make it as plug n play as possible here with an easier install

Awesome news! Thank you

#179 6 years ago

Taylor can you test the GI's on their own in test mode and do they test different brightness?

#180 6 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Someone should make a mod spotlight kit with step by step instructions for those that would like their game a bit brighter. I'm sure a good amount of people would buy it.

Working on it. Hope to have something in a package for pinballbulbs to sell.

#181 6 years ago

I'm in for a kit. Hopefully with black shades to match the others in Woz.

#182 6 years ago
Quoted from scottc:

Taylor can you test the GI's on their own in test mode and do they test different brightness?

No and no. I'm sure it'll come at some point.

#183 6 years ago

From http://www.pinplay.com/4/weak_gi_on_woz_there_could_be_a_good_reason_for_that.html

"Update August 8, 2013: According to a quick note received from Jersey Jack, WOZ software version 1.16 released yesterday includes “some extra” GI power, however the issue will be addressed more significantly in version 1.17 or 1.18."

#184 6 years ago
Quoted from BriGuy5:

No and no. I'm sure it'll come at some point.

Thanks for the answer. What are the options under test mode at this time? Are there switch tests etc. yet?

#185 6 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Working on it. Hope to have something in a package for pinballbulbs to sell.

Sweet! Looking forward to it.

#186 6 years ago
Quoted from Sunfox:

From http://www.pinplay.com/4/weak_gi_on_woz_there_could_be_a_good_reason_for_that.html
"Update August 8, 2013: According to a quick note received from Jersey Jack, WOZ software version 1.16 released yesterday includes “some extra” GI power, however the issue will be addressed more significantly in version 1.17 or 1.18."

Speaking of future updates I was trying to remember if it was you who posted about new modes coming at the end of the month?

#187 6 years ago

No, sorry, don't think that ws me.

#188 6 years ago
Quoted from John_in_NC:

We hear a lot about the LEDs that fail, how many have had their machine for a month or so without any LED issues?

That would be me. No led issues so far. Had it for over a month.

#189 6 years ago
Quoted from coasterguy:

I'm in for a kit. Hopefully with black shades to match the others in Woz.

They could be spray painted. I love spray painting everything so that's why I mentioned it. Never thought of doing that until now actually...

#190 6 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

This is not solely directed at you, but
The rationalization here for shitty QC is astounding....
Guaranteed if Stern released a pin where nearly every GI light had to be adjusted because the assemblers was drunk/blind/stupid there would be a roar of folks pillorying Stern for their labor practices, poor workmanship, shoddy QC, etc, etc, etc.
So much for,
"Well, they are making them very slow, but the EXTREME QUALITY is worth it"

Exactly.

#191 6 years ago
Quoted from scottc:

Thanks for the answer. What are the options under test mode at this time? Are there switch tests etc. yet?

Yes, everything is very visual, switch matrix looks great

#192 6 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

A couple adjustments to the LED's is not deal breaker but it should be corrected on the line. I'm sure that JJP has saw this thread as well as others and will be ensuring that workers check the alignment of the LED tubes.

I wasn't suggesting its a "deal breaker" - certainly folks that have endured a 2+ year wait will squint past this new issue as "normal" or "minor."

More a commentary on the continual bubble-burst of the initial lofty claims that somehow JJP would be immune from the problems that plague Stern (spotty QC, incomplete code, missed deliveries, etc)....

I agree it will get fixed... somewhat disturbing it will take them reading this forum to realize the QC problem .... the greater issue might be the general lack of sufficient GI in the design. This QC problem just exacerbates it....

It was immediately apparent when I played it in a dimly lit arcade the first time... I thought it was because the inserts were (incorrectly) constantly pulsing all-on.... I just attributed it to a prototype fail.

#193 6 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

They could be spray painted. I love spray painting everything so that's why I mentioned it. Never thought of doing that until now actually...

Just buy them:

http://bayareaamusements.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MX-10094-4

#195 6 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I wasn't suggesting its a "deal breaker" - certainly folks that have endured a 2+ year wait will squint past this new issue as "normal" or "minor."
More a commentary on the continual bubble-burst of the initial lofty claims that somehow JJP would be immune from the problems that plague Stern (spotty QC, incomplete code, missed deliveries, etc)....
I agree it will get fixed... somewhat disturbing it will take them reading this forum to realize the QC problem .... the greater issue might be the general lack of sufficient GI in the design. This QC problem just exacerbates it....
It was immediately apparent when I played it in a dimly lit arcade the first time... I thought it was because the inserts were (incorrectly) constantly pulsing all-on.... I just attributed it to a prototype fail.

Unless a service ticket is opened, it never happened. Everyone with the problem should log it in so it can be tracked. The ticket can be closed immediately if the customer repaired it themselves. Perhaps a certain assembly employee is doing it wrong and the game's serial number can be used to trace this. That's whay Bally, Williams and Gottlieb always had a clock number on their assembly tags on the playfield, backbox and, with EM's the bottom board. Certain employees could be traced through this.

#196 6 years ago

2 or 3 well placed spot lights would of totally prevented this issue in the first place. A wide body if not well illuminated by GI can become a bit of a black hole. Hopefully their next release addresses this. The great thing about pinball is the community that comes up with solutions to issues like this so we can take care of it and get back to enjoying pinball. Please keep us posted on any kits you come up with markmon/pinballbulbs.

#197 6 years ago

I’ve looked at the machine and all of the technical drawings. I have an idea on how to fix this and technically it’s not that difficult. However, there are some questions to consider and we’d need JJP to answer the questions.

The RGB driver chip that’s being used can handle 150ma per rgb channel. The current LEDs are current limited at 20ma per channel. I’m assuming that’s because the LEDs are rated at that. The board is fused at 500ma. It looks like there is headroom for a couple of more LEDs to be driven by that chip.

The board could be redesigned a little, to allow for a small 3 channel smt resistor network to be added as well as a small header (like the .2mm headers already on the board).

A small 4 wire ribbon cable could be connected to two RGB leds that are mounted into spotlights.
You could replace the slingshot single RGB boards with these new RGB + Satellite boards. It might sound complicated, but it really isn’t.

The current limiting resistor would raise the current to 60ma per channel. The LED’s would be wired in parallel and each LED would have a 3 resistor network to limit the current on that LED to 20ma per channel

The end result would be Markmon’s spotlight idea, but the spotlights would be RGB and would color change with the rest of the GI - at least on the lower playfield.

The questions for JJP are:
Will the additional 240ma load on the power supply be OK?

If it is, then:
Are you interested in implementing this idea on your machines at all?
If you’re not interested in making this change on your machines, will you be OK answering questions for the aftermarket guys like me so we can do it?

Another thought is that the RGB on the machine isn’t proprietary. You can find sample code to drive these LEDs with an arduino board and an external power supply. If I had a machine in my basement, I’d do this, but since I don’t, maybe another guy with the skills and motivation can do it.

Disconnect the Gi chain from the machine. Use the Arduino board as the driver and have it light up the GI at 100%.

It would remove all doubt about whether or not the GI can ever be fixed with software. I don’t think it can. There must be a word for this – Where fixing the GI with software is concerned, I’m torn between wanting my opinion to be correct and wishing it wasn’t.

Edit: Being correct means I know what I'm talking about, but being correct also means that a beautiful new pinball machine needs to hacked on, which isn't a happy thought.

#198 6 years ago
Quoted from dkpinball:

I’ve looked at the machine and all of the technical drawings. I have an idea on how to fix this and technically it’s not that difficult. However, there are some questions to consider and we’d need JJP to answer the questions.
The RGB driver chip that’s being used can handle 150ma per rgb channel. The current LEDs are current limited at 20ma per channel. I’m assuming that’s because the LEDs are rated at that. The board is fused at 500ma. It looks like there is headroom for a couple of more LEDs to be driven by that chip.
The board could be redesigned a little, to allow for a small 3 channel smt resistor network to be added as well as a small header (like the .2mm headers already on the board).
A small 4 wire ribbon cable could be connected to two RGB leds that are mounted into spotlights.
You could replace the slingshot single RGB boards with these new RGB + Satellite boards. It might sound complicated, but it really isn’t.
The current limiting resistor would raise the current to 60ma per channel. The LED’s would be wired in parallel and each LED would have a 3 resistor network to limit the current on that LED to 20ma per channel
The end result would be Markmon’s spotlight idea, but the spotlights would be RGB and would color change with the rest of the GI - at least on the lower playfield.
The questions for JJP are:
Will the additional 240ma load on the power supply be OK?
If it is, then:
Are you interested in implementing this idea on your machines at all?
If you’re not interested in making this change on your machines, will you be OK answering questions for the aftermarket guys like me so we can do it?
Another thought is that the RGB on the machine isn’t proprietary. You can find sample code to drive these LEDs with an arduino board and an external power supply. If I had a machine in my basement, I’d do this, but since I don’t, maybe another guy with the skills and motivation can do it.
Disconnect the Gi chain from the machine. Use the Arduino board as the driver and have it light up the GI at 100%.
It would remove all doubt about whether or not the GI can ever be fixed with software. I don’t think it can. There must be a word for this – Where fixing the GI with software is concerned, I’m torn between wanting my opinion to be correct and wishing it wasn’t.

Did you call JJP or send them a message? They seem fairly accessible and would eliminate speculation.

#199 6 years ago
Quoted from dkpinball:

Disconnect the Gi chain from the machine. Use the Arduino board as the driver and have it light up the GI at 100%. It would remove all doubt about whether or not the GI can ever be fixed with software.

That is what needs to happen.
or
If the software is revised a setting for GI = 100%

Then you will know , by eye, if its enough or needs fixed by other means.

#200 6 years ago

Nah, I haven't gotten that far really. I don't want to be that dick that calls and says, "I hear you have a problem, I can fix it for you."

They have guys who can fix it too. I was hoping someone here might tell me if there's an engineer at JJP who is open to trading some e-mails about it. Or I guess I was hoping that someone at JJP reads this thread.

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