Check this out. Was digging around jacks website and saw this old video. You can see the GI can get a lot brighter, and looks like what we may be able to do in the future. You can to scroll thru later in the video to see the GI lighting up nice and bright. Look around 3:10.

Does the WOZ LED's have any markings on them to ID the LED?

If you know the forward voltage (MAX) of the LED you can measure the actual current at the LED and figure out the headroom for voltage that can be applied to drive them.

I doubt its a liner curve but you would know if you are running near max or the low end of the LED.

It looks to me like they are using pulse width modulation (PWM) to adjust the brightness level. This means the LEDs are turned on at max power, then off very quickly so that your eye doesn't notice any flicker, with the duty cycle being controlled by software. If you use an oscilloscope to determine the duty cycle, you could see how much brighter the software could make the GI.

For example, if one on/off cycle lasted 10ms, half brightness (a brightness level of 5, on a 1 to 10 scale) would be 50% duty cycle which means the LED would be on at max power for 5ms and off for 5ms. A brightness level of 1 would be a 10% duty cycle, meaning the LED would be on at max power for 1ms and off for 9ms. So the software can make the LED very dim but can only make it as bright as the maximum power allowed running at 100% duty cycle, or a brightness of 10, which could be 9.9ms on and 0.1ms off. The maximum power allowed is set in hardware by a resistor on the GI board.

It looks pretty spectacular with the GI lit bright. Hopefully it can be somewhat like that in further versions of the code.

Some one has there information the next code?

I'll be scoping a WoZ tomorrow. I was just going to do some exploration with the scope to get an idea of how things are working. I'll see if I can get a clear picture of the current GI duty cycle to share with you all.

Definitely make sure LEDs are lined up properly. I just checked mine and had to rotate half of them to be lined up with light post. Makes a big difference with the led lined up properly.

Thats pretty unbelievable that a user had to figure this out despite all the complaints about GI.

and for how long. as far back as the ohio show. at least 5 monts ago. gi were dim back then.
I'm sure the'll get it worked out.

I wonder if Alex still lurks here; looks like he was 'retired.' Or Lloyd? I think a couple of small bumps could be added to the GI LED boards so they can be reliably centered over the light posts during assembly (and stay there!). They could even be added to the existing stock of GI boards--no waste!

Mine was like this as well. Unfortunately they will probably vibrate out of place over time, especially on location. Seems to me that they need a better system of aligning/securing the LED PCBs.

I believe he's only taking a week off.

This seems like a pretty terrible quality control issue, I've been really impressed with just about everything about the WOZ cabinet builds ever since I saw Jack demo the features at PAGG, but this ...

Wow. Those pics look like that pin was put together at....Stern?!

Mine was the same and I fixed it a long time ago. It needs to be done, but honestly, this isn't the fix everyone would like it to be. I feel better that its right, but the improvement on my machine wasn't very noticeable or I'd have posted it as a "fix" a long time ago.

That's very promising! I also noticed that there's a lot more music too be used in the game that we haven't heard yet. I hope more of the music in the video makes it into the game by the time code is complete. Since the video is from JJP I assume that we will eventually be hearing more of the music from the video.

Absolutely correct observation. The light tubes are performing exactly as designed.

Using a semi-clear tube would not provide more brightness. In fact, quite the opposite. The physics of the light tube is based on total internal reflection (TIR) and the index of refraction (I sub R) plus a few other things. Index of refraction basically states that light waves propagate differently when transiting from one medium to the next (glass to air; water to air). If the light tube sides are clear, more light energy escapes the tube boundary and is dissipated outward. If the light tubes are opaque, that interface (clear acrylic / frosted) reflects more light energy inward. However, the light tubes as shown will still dissipate light energy along its length. The light tubes would need to be "opaque" along the entire length except where it protrudes on the top of the playfield. Think of it as encapsulating it in a sleeve. The optimum would be a mirror finish to reflect all light back into the light tube but that may not be practical. The biggest factor would be to ensure the light is coupled to the light tube optimally; that is, aligned correctly. Light transmitted into any medium, to remain coherent, must be "launched" correctly.

Good thought but this ill have the opposite effect. It will actually break the light into its separate waves, much like a prism.

Some points there, but I was thinking of a more efficient/directed structure. Regardless, the biggest effect (after making sure the LEDs and tubes are aligned) would be to increase the output of the LEDs, for sure. (And if there was TIR, the tubes would be dark! )

Whoah.. deep stuff dude. Way over my head but sounds good!

The more eyes looking at something the sooner issues will be noticed and / or corrected.

Exactly what I was thinking!

Sorry 'bout that, I'll tone it down. It's my day job creeping in here; I engineer fiber optic systems.

Jack said they were hoping to start testing for bugs on the weekend and have it out this week sometime.

It an oversight and likely considered "good" if the tube lights up.

When optics are involved small misalignments can = huge performance issues. Speaking from an automotive perspective the headlights on your car must pass photometric testing. Its basically putting a headlight on a motorized aiming fixture and measuring the beam and dispersion in a dark tunnel. If the candela values drop off in certain areas the headlamp fails inspection. This can be caused by a small ( 1MM or less) variation in the bulb shield, reflector housing, bulb socked fit, etc.

In the case of WOZ a misalignment ( LED / optic tube) can be seen with the naked eye and made a big difference. This is where your tooling & fixtures come into play for quality and consistency.

I'll concede the lighting needs to be improved. I think those spots, however, are going to get the hell beat out of them. Even with the coil strengths dialed down, the balls on my game still fly all over the place, especially right after it's been cleaned. I'm waiting to see if they can improve the lighting in future code updates.

Yeah, I'm with you there. Balls flying all over the place on our WOZ, thinking about dialing back the strength on the slingshots myself. The pop bumpers also seem a bit over powered.

Those spots are pretty standard I think...

Id be surprised if a software "fix" can come close to throwing as much GI light on the pF as this spotlight solution.

Looks like a design miss IMO... perhaps they tested this thing under massive ambient lighting conditions and didnt think to try different lighting scenarios...

I was playing one at Flippers and their place was not lit very well and the LEDS were blinding. The game eventually crapped out and they turned it off; it was at that point that i saw how NICE the playfield was...

Jack made a comment on the JJP Google Group that that video is over a year old. If you remember, they had to totally redesign the GI lighting system. I believe it was due to a vendor not honoring their pricing agreement/quote and not being able to supply parts (I can't remember the exact details). So what is in the game now may not be what was used in that video. The information on the GI redesign is buried somewhere in the JJP forum, but I'm afraid I don't feel like trying to dredge it up right now.

That was all the LEDs iirc, not specifically the GI

Cost cut!!! : ) No light for you!

No, it was the GI. Initially the GI was a separate setup and used more traditional bulbs (no tubes). When they redesigned the GI, they went with the tubes so that they could use the same surface mount RGB LEDs as the inserts.

Disclaimer: I could be totally wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the tubes came onto the scene after they had trouble with the vendor for the GI lighting.

Those long ass tubes need a way stronger LED.

It's a shame they weren't able to light such a pretty PF.

Below is the quote regarding the GI redesign. GI was initially different, it was redesigned to use the same LEDs as the inserts. Maybe they were planning on using tubes from the start, I don't know, but the info given indicates that a major revision had to be made. And I'm sure it was one of the things that contributed to the game taking longer than planned.

Begin quote:

So about six weeks ago we find out that the LED's we want to use for
our GI Lights are like $6 each after sourcing them and promises of a
lower cost.....don't worry, they will be lower in quantity we are
told..... John makes a controller board (that's like a month or so out
of his life) and they work great - oops...the supplier can save us a
few pennies under $6 each and we need 30+ of them.....and it's ten
weeks + to get them all of a sudden. Bad communications on the
supplier side but who's in any type of time sensitive project anyway?

We quickly switch to the LED we are using in the feature lights...Joe
redesigns the redesign the bracket, John creates a new board for them
and Jim the method to show the light on the playfield and John has to
design another completely different driver board to control
everything...oh...Keith has to program to the different firmware and
driver board too....tidbit huh - so - we have those LED's in stock,
boards are being made, Keith has to take five steps forward and a few
backwards and we get what we want in spite of suppliers who are not
time and price sensitive....there's a tidbit for you. About another
thousand like that and a few that ended badly but we keep going, we
have an amazing team.....

The spots I installed are now sitting on 1 1/2" tall posts. Just like Stern does & Ive rarely had a problem with the ones on my Metallica LE,AC/DC LE,or Xmen LE getting beat up. I didn't have any at the time I was installing them on WOZ. Actually I have installed them on all my pins & couldn't be happier with the results.

Gweempose graciously opened his game room to me so we could take a close look at his WoZ and the GI Lighting issue.

Before I get into what I found I want to make something clear. I feel that the JJP team performed miracles of innovation on this game. There are no other games like it and I was absolutely mesmerized by the design and high quality of the game. I really hope that Jack makes it over the initial hump so he can continue to create games because this should be the new design quality standard for pinball.

I don’t think I’ve seen a game that I want to *live* inside more than WoZ.

I don’t want anyone thinking I am ripping on this game. I’m simply noticing that there’s a large hand print on the windshield of a Ferrari so it can be wiped off.

First, I agree that the GI lighting is far too dim. I put a scope on each of the LED leads when the GI was bright white and I found that that the PWM duty cycle appears to be at 60%. This being someone else’s game, I was afraid to poke at it too hard. I couldn’t get a good place to connect the ground on my test lead so the signal was noisy, but we all agreed that 60% seemed right.
If that’s the case, there probably isn’t a lot of room for improvement coming from the software.

A 40% boost might seem like a lot, but where PWM and LED brightness are concerned, the increase from 0% - 100% isn’t linear. The most dramatic light differences happen in the mid-range. While 30% to 60% might be dramatic increase in brightness, 60% to 100% will probably be almost imperceptible.

Cal50 suggested that the LEDs might be able to be driven harder. Changing the voltage to the LEDs wont make a difference. The RGB driver chip that is being used limits the current going to the LED. You could alter this by replacing a surface mount resistor on each board to change the current – however, without knowing the big design picture, this is ill advised. Doubling the current draw of the GI might have other negative effects on the power system. Also the LED lifetime would be diminished.

The positive impact would be so low it wouldn’t be worth the risk or effort.

While looking at the boards we ran into the same problem as others - misalignment. Some LEDs were squarely shining on the back of the playfield, no light going through the tube at all. One board couldn’t be fixed (at least not quickly) because there was a switch next to it which limited our options for adjustment.

IMG_2153_(Small).JPG

We thought that maybe we could use the PIG 2 to power additional spotlights that would turn off with the GI. Unfortunately, the PIG 2 wasn’t designed to work with serial RGB boards. The three white spotlights that are in the game now do not interact with the GI, they stay lit the whole time.

I haven’t been able to download the manual, my guess is that it’s in a private “owners only” part of the website. Or I’m just missing it, I don’t know. Does the manual have a schematic for the RGB board? I do have an idea for what I think is an acceptable fix.

I think it’s too late to make something mesh seamlessly with the game but there may be a way for the band-aid to look OK. It will take me a few weeks to work it all out.

PM sent to you dkpinball.

Snowdale, your posts always distract me for some reason. I can't put my finger on it.

I think in most locations that DIM GI won't matter but I'm hopeful that someone makes a GI light kit mod to help light up the game a bit more for those who desire it.

I think the vast majority of locations, as well as owner's homes this will be a huge issue. Pinball parlors/arcades have traditionally been dimly lit as overhead lighting is precisely what serious pinball players dislike. Hearing that the tech-no-geeks have looked at this lighting system and aren't coming up with anything but band-aid and add-on solutions seems like a bad omen for this first effort.

I know when I played the game in Louisville the lack of g.i. lighting (and not being able to see and follow the ball) were a huge turnoff to me, and the overly bright insert lighting just makes the situation worse. But then a lot of new converts to pinball that I meet tend to overdo the LED insert and g.i. lighting even on their older games that were designed with decent lighting to begin with so maybe I'm just old fashioned??

Good info-

The max light output would likely be correct alignment of LED / tubes vs frequency change or voltage increase. Fortunately this costs nothing and just some handwork and inspection of existing light tube / LED alignment on the game itself.

I wonder if you can see the difference in light output comparing a correctly aligned light tube / LED vs a misaligned one using a night shot camera? It might save time looking at every light tube / LED.

It's a shame if it can't be corrected via cranking up the LEDs in the software. Stock from the factory it looks far too dark especially for a newer machine. I hope that the JJP team may be able to come up with a simple solution that will shed some light on the issue. In the meantime, making sure the LEDs and tubes are aligned properly seems pretty darn critical.

There weren't so many to look at, only around 20. Quick adjustments took me all of 15 mins to line everything up. Obviously it would take longer to be drilling new pilot holes and changing the location completely, but I didn't feel the need to do so. All of them could be rotated enough to shine thru the light tube, if not directly centered. Didn't affect the light output as long as the led was on the edge of the post, just underneath instead of on the side of it.

Thanks for digging into it DK (love your products!) - A quick FYI though

A GI update is coming and will be substantially brighter.
Also, the duty cycle is currently at 35%, not 60.

Source: Trust me

Update is coming out tomorrow too.

I would be really pleased if the software made a big enough difference.

I hope you are right.

Update *might* be coming tomorrow. Let's not say false facts here...unless you have another source for your info.

Jack mentioned it on the woz forum...so it just "might" come tommorow.