(Topic ID: 97809)

My Second EM and First Gottlieb - 1972 King Rock - Finished! w/ photos


By dtown

5 years ago



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There are 68 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 5 years ago

SIXTEEN Decagon Score Reels to clean! I think that just about sums it up. Wow. Much more time consuming than a Williams. Though, I do appreciate the build quality...and the bigger score numbers. You kinda get into a routine while doing them though. Ya know...like a robot. Remove score reel, remove E-clip, remove washer, remove four machine screws, peel back Bakelite plate...etc.

Well I got this King Rock along with a Liberty Bell for fixing a guy's Aztec. Due to space constraints I'm probably going to sell this one as soon as I'm done so I'm working on it first to make space. Got the Liberty Bell and Top Card sitting and waiting.

First step was to remove the back glass, clean the front with glass cleaner and the back with a damp sponge. The back glass is really nice with no flaking. Maybe a few tiny pinholes but really nice nonetheless.

P1010464_Fotor.jpgP1010463.JPG

#2 5 years ago

Next I moved onto the back box and, man, did that take a while. The score reels, the four player unit and a bound up credit unit. I really gotta give credit to Clay Harrell's PinballNinja videos for pointing out the importance of removing the nut from the shoulder bolt on these stepper unit's before trying to take the screw out. Yea, you gotta be careful with them. I did buy some extras from PB Resource in case I broke one but so far so good. Then onto the guts inside the cabinet. Wow, were they dirty. Several hours spent just cleaning the coin door. Not perfect but I think it turned out good. The power switch was bound up so...I broke it. New one in bound from Action Pinball along with new flipper switches. The pads on the old ones were just about gone.

220k games......WOW!
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Before
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After
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#3 5 years ago

Wish I would have took a before shot of the coin door. It was coated in rust. Not too bad now. Gotta paint the start button still.

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#4 5 years ago

Backglass in NICE shape!!

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from dtown:

SIXTEEN Decagon Score Reels to clean!

I know the feeling.

Backglass is in great shape.

Quoted from dtown:

Top Card sitting and waiting

That^^ my brother has Its a additive player,your gonna like it.

#6 5 years ago

I'm onto the playfield and found two wires that were cut. I think they may go to the under playfield mini stepper unit. Before I go all crazy and spend bucks on a schematic I gotta ask the EM group...DID GOTTLIEB EVER CUT WIRES ON A GAME THAT WERE NOT USED? Meaning, could this have come this way from the factory?

Ewww...pretty dirty. Not for long.
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In the center of the photo. Could they have been cut from the factory?
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If not, do they go to this mini stepper?
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#7 5 years ago
Quoted from dtown:

Before I go all crazy and spend bucks on a schematic

$14.00 is going crazy? I always get a schematic and manual for all my machines mainly because it answers a lot of questions right off the bat and is a great to have down the road when something else stops working correctly. Also a good item to pass along to the next owner.

You could always ask someone who owns this machine on Pinside to send you a picture of the area where your wires are cut to confirm if they are supposed to be used or not, at least that's what I would do.

Just my 2 cents.

Ken

#8 5 years ago

From what I can see in the picture you posted the wires look like they go to the mini stepper(AS style relay).

This relay is central to the gameplay on King Rock in that it advances the scoring received from the spinners as well as advances the 10 playfield lights for accumulating bonus. Need to be sure this is working 100%.

#9 5 years ago

Electrical tape, cut wire - after factory hack.

#10 5 years ago

Thanks for help guys. PM's sent to other King Rock owners and I'll get a schematic with my next PBR order. One thing I'd like to point out is none of the wire colors on the male jones plug match the female colors. Shouldn't they all match? Could someone have put a replacement male plug in without using the original wires?

The AS relay does have a "dig" mark on one of the boards where it looks like the little rotating nubs got stuck. I've cleaned, sanded and applied a light coating of PBR grease and there's enough brass there to make contact. Come to think of it the "F" identifying sticker on this unt is different than the others. Could this whole unit have been replaced and that's why the wires were cut? Nonetheless, those two wires gotta be for something that's not going to work properly.

#11 5 years ago

From the looks of the wiring it still has good colors showing, once you have a schematic it should be cake to find where the wires go.

#12 5 years ago

Hey, I just got your pm last night. My King Rock is in my storage unit right now, I think I have a schematic too. I'll bring my camera with me and go take a look at it this morning. From the picture above it looks like a yellow and green wire and a blue wire, I'll take some pictures and see what I can find.

#13 5 years ago

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#14 5 years ago

What is under the electrical tape? Some of the wires are clearly cut but you can't tell from your photos if all of them are cut.

I would first take inventory of what wires/colors are on each side of the cut. If they all match odds are pretty good that this will direct you to which wires to reconnect to each other. THE BIG IF IS IF THIS IS THE ORIGINAL "AS" RELAY. (sorry for the shouting) I suggest you follow up with other collectors for pictures of the relay in their game to see if the wiring colors match what is in your game. If they do I would hook up them back up, service the relay and switches themselves, and give it a go.

If the wires don't match the colors from other King Rock games I would be concerned that the AS relay in your game is not original to a King Rock. If that is the case, someone was probably working towards rewiring it to work in King Rock. If this is the case, it will take a bit more detective work to figure out which wire goes where. The simplest way to address this, if it is the case, is to have someone with the correct relay map where each wire goes - from which pin on each connector to which tab on each wiper board or coil or switch.

Keep us posted.

Mike O.

#15 5 years ago

Alright. We can forget about the wire colors that lead from the male plug to the AS relay. The relay may be the original but the male plug(s) (they used four single plugs as well) is definitely not the original. I took photos of what I need to see.

As you can see the wire colors do not match up. From what I can tell from FRB's photo the wires on the one side of the relay mech look to match up to their corresponding colors on the female connector.
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#16 5 years ago

I'd still like to know if the rest of the connected wires match up correctly so, if you have more pictures of where they go please post. Specifically I'm looking for the two that are not connected. If you're looking at the table from the side where the AS relay is it would be the top right wire and the third from the top on the left side. Remember, forget about the colors on my male plug. They're wrong. Use the ones on the female.

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Third from the top on left. The one that's blue with white stripes.
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#17 5 years ago

Here's my AS relay. As you can see all the lugs are used on one side but only two are used on the other. I suspect that these two wires go to two of the lugs on this side but don't know for sure. C and 9 are the only ones connected on this side.

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#18 5 years ago

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#19 5 years ago

From the picture above, it doesn't look like there are any leaf switches behind your stepper unit. I don't have my machine with me, but I pulled off my stepper unit and have that with me. The two wires in your picture above (top right and 3rd down on the left) both go to the two leaf switches behind the bakelite board. I'd be happy to take some pictures and get be more descriptive if it helps.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from Bangagong85:

From the picture above, it doesn't look like there are any leaf switches behind your stepper unit. I don't have my machine with me, but I pulled off my stepper unit and have that with me. The two wires in your picture above (top right and 3rd down on the left) both go to the two leaf switches behind the bakelite board. I'd be happy to take some pictures and get be more descriptive if it helps.

Yes please. I'll have to reassemble a switch stack there.

#21 5 years ago

Well apparently it's a little complicated. I looked at my Top Card which has this switch mounted on the AS relay. There's a plastic cog that slides onto the nylon shaft. Anyone know where I can get one of these plastic gears?

Edit. Answered my own question.

http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-8752

#22 5 years ago

PBR has them too & Steve is the king of Gottleib. He will likely have whatever is needed

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from dasvis:

PBR has them too & Steve is the king of Gottleib. He will likely have whatever is needed

Yes. I've noticed. But sometimes he's so popular for Gottlieb parts, that he'll be sold out. Like he doesn't have the push button style power switches. Had to get one from Action Pinball. But, I agree, I always go to his site first.

#24 5 years ago

Steve will have what you need. He will also have the proper switch you will need for the cam.

As for the wires, if you have wire colors on the relay itself that match the wires on the female side of the connector, you probably have the map you need to splice this in. Good luck.

#25 5 years ago

I am aware of at least 3 different forms of that black cam. One is the "every other" type to control an alternator relay. The second (apparently used on Surfers / Surf Champ) is an every 5 steps (two home positions). The third is the type with only one home position (1 out of 10).

The Schematic has a "zero position advance unit" (G relay) switch so you should need the 1 in 10 style. This brings the stepper back to the starting position after each ball.

On a King Kool Schematic, the Zero Position switch is shown with Mar/Wht and BL/Wht wires. Opens at zero position, and should be closed at the other 9 positions.

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

I am aware of at least 3 different forms of that black cam. One is the "every other" type to control an alternator relay. The second (apparently used on Surfers / Surf Champ) is an every 5 steps (two home positions). The third is the type with only one home position (1 out of 10).
The Schematic has a "zero position advance unit" (G relay) switch so you should need the 1 in 10 style. This brings the stepper back to the starting position after each ball.
On a King Kool Schematic, the Zero Position switch is shown with Mar/Wht and BL/Wht wires. Opens at zero position, and should be closed at the other 9 positions.

Is it this one? They're three listed and this one has the least amount of gears.

http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-8754

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from dtown:

Is it this one? They're three listed and this one has the least amount of gears.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-8754

No, that one has two cam positions which is for a five position function. You need one that looks just like that only with one cam position.

#28 5 years ago

Are you sure that's the right stepper. part numbers do not match mine nor the one I found on net. It looks like someone grafted a match unit stepper in. there are two switches in the one you need. One to return to home and one to advance bonus.

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from frb:

Are you sure that's the right stepper. part numbers do not match mine nor the one I found on net. It looks like someone grafted a match unit stepper in. there are two switches in the one you need. One to return to home and one to advance bonus.

The board number is different but has the same layout though so it may work. Can you take out your relay and post some pics of all the sides and inside of it showing me the switches and cams. Also, if there's two switches then I don't know where the other two wires are coming from as I only have two that aren't connected. Oh, and I have ordered a schematic too.

#30 5 years ago

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#31 5 years ago

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#32 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

No, that one has two cam positions which is for a five position function. You need one that looks just like that only with one cam position.

I'm going to retract my statement above. I was assuming it takes 10 spins to get a bonus on this game. The pictures from FRB's post above indicate the two cam unit which would give you a bonus with only five spins. That would infer the two cam unit is correct.

Mike O.

#33 5 years ago

frb,

Can you advance your unit 5 more steps and show us another picture of the two black cams? I am wondering if there is a version with 1 hill and a version with 1 valley? The zero position would OPEN at the home or what we will call 0 position. The bonus advance would be open and then possibly close at position 9 (just like the carry over switch on a score reel).

In theory, a match unit with the two PCBs could use the second PCB just for the 9th position switch. But the PCB probably can't handle the current that the leaf switch could. But you would still need a single home position cam for the zeroing function to work.

The Zero function isn't completely necessary to make the game work. It would just leave the green circle light at the last place when the ball drains. Games like Bally Champ did this anyway where the next player could steel your "almost there" advances. I think Bow and Arrow was like this too. Shows a bit of extra thinking on the Engineers part at Gottlieb.

#34 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

I'm going to retract my statement above. I was assuming it takes 10 spins to get a bonus on this game. The pictures from FRB's post above indicate the two cam unit which would give you a bonus with only five spins. That would infer the two cam unit is correct.
Mike O.

No Mike, I think you were right the first time. There are 10 green Inserts you have to get to advance the next bonus.

#35 5 years ago

Okay, I call "Brain Fart" on my part. The design is 20 (10 X 2) steps around, not just 10. So the smallest number would be 2 hills or 2 valleys. Left or Right. So, there are apparently 6 different designs.

#36 5 years ago

20 pulses to rotate cams. 2 hills on one cam, two valleys on other

#37 5 years ago

this is same stepper that is on my lawman.

#38 5 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

frb,
Can you advance your unit 5 more steps and show us another picture of the two black cams? I am wondering if there is a version with 1 hill and a version with 1 valley? The zero position would OPEN at the home or what we will call 0 position. The bonus advance would be open and then possibly close at position 9 (just like the carry over switch on a score reel).
In theory, a match unit with the two PCBs could use the second PCB just for the 9th position switch. But the PCB probably can't handle the current that the leaf switch could. But you would still need a single home position cam for the zeroing function to work.
The Zero function isn't completely necessary to make the game work. It would just leave the green circle light at the last place when the ball drains. Games like Bally Champ did this anyway where the next player could steel your "almost there" advances. I think Bow and Arrow was like this too. Shows a bit of extra thinking on the Engineers part at Gottlieb.

In order for there to be 1 hill and 1 valley the unit would have to be round. with 20 pulses the back arm of the swiper makes contact with the contacts on the 11 thru 20 pulse.

#39 5 years ago
Quoted from frb:

In order for there to be 1 hill and 1 valley the unit would have to be round. with 20 pulses the back arm of the swiper makes contact with the contacts on the 11 thru 20 pulse.

I know.... Like I said, Brain Fart! I knew the unit was a maximum of 10 wiper locations. Just forgot about the fact it doubles up itself due to the symetrical wiper design.

Glad you had a photo to set me straight!

#40 5 years ago

Maybe a crafty op who had that unit on hand and needed to get machine earning.

#41 5 years ago
Quoted from frb:

Maybe a crafty op who had that unit on hand and needed to get machine earning.

I am thinking the crafty op is the guy that stole the AS relay in the first place to fix a more valuable game way back when. Many a good Tech has completely given up on re-adjusting a troublesome AS relay and opted for pulling one from somewhere else (game in warehouse etc.). Unfortunately, the bad parts rarely finds its way back to the machine it was "barrowed" from (take for example all the container games that show up with complete assemblies missing from them, never to be found other than on other doner games.

Then, along came someone that bought the King Rock out of a warehouse and found the darn thing completely missing. And did what they could to repopulate it with another AS relay (possibly a match unit) from yet another game. Like I said, if there are actually only 2 wires soldered to the second wiper PCB, it was done to serve as the carry over (bonus) switch.

Did we check to see if the game's Match unit is still in the head?

#42 5 years ago

I know it's late in the conversation but maybe this info from the parts manual will help.

The manual also tells you which cams, by part number, are included with each AS relay. Unfortunately I only have the P catalog in front of me which does not include King Kool/King Rock. I'll try to look tonight at the N catalog which will have it.

AS Relay Cams-172.jpg

#43 5 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

I am thinking the crafty op is the guy that stole the AS relay in the first place to fix a more valuable game way back when. Many a good Tech has completely given up on re-adjusting a troublesome AS relay and opted for pulling one from somewhere else (game in warehouse etc.). Unfortunately, the bad parts rarely finds its way back to the machine it was "barrowed" from (take for example all the container games that show up with complete assemblies missing from them, never to be found other than on other doner games.
Then, along came someone that bought the King Rock out of a warehouse and found the darn thing completely missing. And did what they could to repopulate it with another AS relay (possibly a match unit) from yet another game. Like I said, if there are actually only 2 wires soldered to the second wiper PCB, it was done to serve as the carry over (bonus) switch.
Did we check to see if the game's Match unit is still in the head?

Stuff like that only happens in movies

#44 5 years ago

Thanks guys. Yes, I've been through the head already and the match unit is there. I can't tell from the pic, which cam is on the right? Is it the one with two valleys. Just use the correct part number on the pic above. So, from what I see two of the wires that went to a switch were attached to a second board. Would this work? Is this gonna be one of those "see what it does when you start it" things?

#45 5 years ago

Technically it doesn't matter which side each cam is as long as the respective switch aligns to it.

Sounds like you could really use the mapping of a known good relay from another KK/KR.

I went through something similar here only the AS relay to my Outer Space had been modded by a previous owner.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/need-help-from-gottlieb-outer-space-or-orbit-owner

I have also recreated from parts the match relay for both a Centigrade 37 and an El Dorado for games that were missing them by mapping and copying the existing relay in my games. So there is hope. You have most of the parts needed in your possession.

Mike O.

#46 5 years ago

I have a King kool, but it's 60 miles away at our cabin. Next time I go up there I can take some photos.
As I recall, those "AS" relays were a bitch to setup, especially the one with two switches.

#47 5 years ago

Your stepper unit is slightly different from mine, like a mirror image of it. Mine has A-8933 printed on it, yours is A-8934, but it's the same layout so it should work.
IMG_0024.JPG

Here are some closeups of the switches and cams, I took out the arm and spring that does the ratcheting so that you could see the cams and switches better.
IMG_0026.JPG
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Here are the wires attached to the switches, the blue wire on top goes to the solenoid. The two cut wires on your machine go to the left switch on each stack in this picture.
IMG_0030.JPG

#48 5 years ago

Thanks guys. Bangagong, your pics are excellent and I can see the color detail of the wires and where they go. I'm gonna order a right side two valley cam along with a pair of switch stacks from Steve Young. I have a left side two hill cam already.

Does this relay tie into the spinners and the advancement of the circle of lights in the center of the playfield? If so, that would explain why one of the spinners is gone. The hack that was done may work with one spinner but not two. Fortunately, Marco's had these spinners so I was able to order a pair of new ones.

#49 5 years ago

Marcos has the spinners?
Hmm, will have to check that out. Mine are wasted...

#50 5 years ago
Quoted from dasvis:

Marcos has the spinners?
Hmm, will have to check that out. Mine are wasted...

Yea. I was surprised. PBResource didn't have them listed. They're nice looking too. Well, as nice as a "10" and blue square can be but good quality nonetheless. NOS maybe?

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