(Topic ID: 301128)

My scorpion needs more speed

By Foxxstone_80

2 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

2976A9AA-0DF2-4F2D-A411-F2877443A502 (resized).jpeg
#1 2 years ago

I rebuilt the four flippers on my Williams Scorpion but it still has that slow floaty feeling gameplay that early solid state wide bodies are known for. I followed Vid's guide on the initial flipper rebuild, EOS gapped appropriately, ect. I can make all the shots, rip the spinner from the bottom set of flippers but Im just not happy with how the game plays. I want more speed. I saw the guide about upgrading SS style flippers to WPC so I think I'll give that a shot. Wondering if there is anything else to try. I know people change out coils to get more power so that may be an option. I'll probably do the flipper upgrade first. Just wondering if anyone has had a similar experience and upgraded to WPC style flippers; did the flippers seem more powerful? was the gameplay faster? Anything else to know or try?

#2 2 years ago

Have you replaced the flipper bushing? Often times, people forget about that. Old bushings can cause friction and drag on the flipper shaft.

Are the flipper bats gapped correctly using a flipper gauge tool? https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-8194 Another source of friction & drag if not done correctly.

Have you tried increasing the playfield angle by adjusting the leg levelers?

These early solid state widebody games were slower players, especially compared against more modern games with less open space.

But, if you are still set on replacing the mechs, try searching for more common titles from the same era, rather than just scorpion--you may get more hits.

For example, Williams flash:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flash-flipper-upgrade
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stringer-flippers-for-williams-flash

Gorgar: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gorgar-flipper-upgrade

Firepower: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-firepower-flipper-rebuild-1

-1
#3 2 years ago

You can put some blocks under back legs if leg levelers won't give you enough incline. Clean playfield with Mill Wax which has silicone and ball will definitely move faster.

#4 2 years ago

That's generally not recommended. Carinuba wax is more widely used now. There are many threads on the subject.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Have you replaced the flipper bushing? Often times, people forget about that. Old bushings can cause friction and drag on the flipper shaft.
Are the flipper bats gapped correctly using a flipper gauge tool? https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-8194 Another source of friction & drag if not done correctly.
Have you tried increasing the playfield angle by adjusting the leg levelers?
These early solid state widebody games were slower players, especially compared against more modern games with less open space.
But, if you are still set on replacing the mechs, try searching for more common titles from the same era, rather than just scorpion--you may get more hits.
For example, Williams flash:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flash-flipper-upgrade
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stringer-flippers-for-williams-flash
Gorgar: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gorgar-flipper-upgrade
Firepower: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-firepower-flipper-rebuild-1

Yes I replaced the bushings (old ones were shot!) and used the gap tool; placed between the flipper bushing and flipper. The flippers play better after the rebuild kits, just not as powerful as I'd like them to be. I'm thinking you are right that these games are just slower compared to more modern games. I'm just looking for a way to make it go a bit faster. I have the back leg levelers as high as possible, and the front leg as low as possible. Also freshly waxed. This did increase the speed the ball falls obviously but the flipper strength just doesn't seem to be enough. I previously read a few of the links you posted, that's what initially gave me the idea to upgrade to WPC style flippers. The conversion seems pretty straight forward. There is plenty of room underneath the playfeild and I would only need the baseplate and the return springs. MAYBE I'm chasing something that isn't possible on a game of this era....I guess I'll see after I do the flipper upgrade. Thanks for your comments.

#6 2 years ago

There is a point where you risk breaking drop targets.

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinslot:

There is a point where you risk breaking drop targets.

Right, That's why changing to a more powerful coil isn't my first choice. In any event, I can always buy new drop targets......only joking, sorta!

#8 2 years ago

Use a ceramic ball like the Powerball from Twilight Zone.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from Agent_Hero:

Use a ceramic ball like the Powerball from Twilight Zone.

This right here will solve your problems. I have them in 6 games.

#10 2 years ago

Or use a 1" steel ball such as used in ball roll tilt mechanisms.

But 40 year old games were generally slower than todays machines, and I recommend you keep it that way. Sure, clean and wax the playfield, install new rubbers and rebuild flippers. Then enjoy the game as it was designed. For faster action, get a modern game.

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinslot:

There is a point where you risk breaking drop targets.

Unlikely with the williams wide targets - any other maker where it's a stem instead of the whole fat target I'd agree.

Quoted from Foxxstone_80:

that's what initially gave me the idea to upgrade to WPC style flippers

If Scorpion has the 2 part flippers where the base is separate you will see a difference in that the flippers will play 'tighter'. If you already have the one piece base that was introduced around firepower there will be a negligible difference as they are essentially the same design.

You can really hot rod it and put a 50v transformer and associated power board in from the later system 7 games.

The main reason a lot of people go over to the wpc style is easy parts availability.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from Agent_Hero:

Use a ceramic ball like the Powerball from Twilight Zone.

I'm unfamiliar with ceramic balls but I might have to check that out, thanks

Quoted from Tuukka:

Or use a 1" steel ball such as used in ball roll tilt mechanisms.
But 40 year old games were generally slower than todays machines, and I recommend you keep it that way. Sure, clean and wax the playfield, install new rubbers and rebuild flippers. Then enjoy the game as it was designed. For faster action, get a modern game.

Good points. I really like the style of these older games and the simpler game play, I just wanted to explore my options to make it a bit faster.

Quoted from slochar:

The main reason a lot of people go over to the wpc style is easy parts availability

Ok, that's good to know. I assumed it was better flipper performance due to the flipper return spring being off the coil. If it isn't going to really enhance the gameplay then I probably won't do the conversion.

I really have no intentions of hottrodding the machine or doing anything else crazy...I was just looking for some tips to add a bit more speed. I figured there could be some simple/obvious things I overlooked. Thanks everyone for your responses!

#14 2 years ago

Interesting, may have to try a few of these. Thanks for the link. I don't know anything about how they're used in other games but are they durable enough to be used in continuous play?

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from Foxxstone_80:

Interesting, may have to try a few of these. Thanks for the link. I don't know anything about how they're used in other games but are they durable enough to be used in continuous play?

Yes. I have them installed in Mata Hari, Bank Shot, Conquest, Joker Poker, Harlem Globetrotters, and Eight Ball. All games have had the ceramic ball in the machine for almost 2 years, no issues.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from djreddog:

Yes. I have them installed in Mata Hari, Bank Shot, Conquest, Joker Poker, Harlem Globetrotters, and Eight Ball. All games have had the ceramic ball in the machine for almost 2 years, no issues.

Sweet! I'm going to try them out. Thanks!

#17 2 years ago
2976A9AA-0DF2-4F2D-A411-F2877443A502 (resized).jpeg2976A9AA-0DF2-4F2D-A411-F2877443A502 (resized).jpeg
#18 2 years ago

Did you replace the EOS switches when you rebuilt the flippers? If yes, did you clean the contacts before or after installing them?

If yes to the first question and no the second, with power off, measure the resistance across each of the EOS switches. Touch your test leads to the lugs where the wires attach. If either measures more than 1 ohm resistance, clean the contacts with 400 grit sandpaper and check the resistance again. Get both under 1 ohm. All the power for the flippers runs through those switches and new switches often have oxidation that you can't see.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Did you replace the EOS switches when you rebuilt the flippers? If yes, did you clean the contacts before or after installing them?
If yes to the first question and no the second, with power off, measure the resistance across each of the EOS switches. Touch your test leads to the lugs where the wires attach. If either measures more than 1 ohm resistance, clean the contacts with 400 grit sandpaper and check the resistance again. Get both under 1 ohm. All the power for the flippers runs through those switches and new switches often have oxidation that you can't see.

Yes new EOS switches and no to cleaning them..
Never occurred to me to clean new switches. Going to follow your advice and test them and then clean them as needed I'll report back. Thanks for the tip!

#20 2 years ago

I got some readings that were >1, cleaned all contacts with the 400 grit sandpaper. After finishing all the EOS switches I fired up a game ans the flippers definitely felt stronger. Not an extreme difference, but it was very noticeable. Now this is one of the simple obvious fixes I was looking for! I'm still debating going through with the WPC conversion though, I'll play the game for a bit more and decide. I'm for sure going to add some ceramic pinballs to my next parts order, those seemed pretty cool.

#21 2 years ago

Solid state EOS switches should not need sanding, especially new ones. It ruins the switch contacts.

To clean switch contacts, just drag an index card between them.

#22 2 years ago

This is early SS where high voltage goes through both the EOS and the cabinet switch. They're not gold plated computer switches that use the business card method.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Solid state EOS switches should not need sanding, especially new ones. It ruins the switch contacts.
To clean switch contacts, just drag an index card between them.

Well shit! I hope I didn't ruin them then. I didn't grind them down or anything, I went real light with the sandpaper....I guess time will tell.

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from Foxxstone_80:

Well shit! I hope I didn't ruin them then. I didn't grind them down or anything, I went real light with the sandpaper....I guess time will tell.

Pretty sure Scorpion has tungsten contacts and get pitted from arcing so you need to file or use sandpaper, an index card won't do jack on tungsten contacts.

#25 2 years ago
Quoted from manadams:

Pretty sure Scorpion has tungsten contacts and get pitted from arcing so you need to file or use sandpaper, an index card won't do jack on tungsten contacts.

Yes the contacts on the switches are tungsten (just looked it up from my part order). This makes me feel better. I've seen a contact burnishing tool, wondering if that would be better to use in the future instead of sandpaper on the switches?

#26 2 years ago

A burnishing tool is better. Sandpaper tends to leave small sand particles that may cause increased contact resistance.

#27 2 years ago

Extra long casters in the rear will solve your issue.

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Solid state EOS switches should not need sanding, especially new ones. It ruins the switch contacts

On virtually every game built before 1990, new EOS switches usually need to be cleaned with something. This is normally closed EOS switches with large contacts. The large contacts are the clue that sanding is ok.

As I mentioned above, oxidation causes a lot of resistance across the contacts. You can easily check this with a meter prior to installing. Contacts look new and properly aligned, but can read dozens of ohms of resistance. Slide some 400 grit sandpaper between the contacts and you're quickly under 1 ohm. EOS switches with low power (small) contacts, normally open or closed, should only be cleaned with a business card.

#29 2 years ago

This is kind of a shot in the dark, but are you using original boards in the game? If so, you may want to try replacing the header pins and female connectors for the flipper power and ground connectors. The ground connector is at 2J12 on the driver board and the power connection is at 3J3 on the power supply board. On 2 Black Knights (Williams system 7, but very similar board set) I found a noticable strength increase after replacing those header pins and the female connectors to them. Might be worth a shot...

#30 2 years ago

So to follow up; I cleaned the flipper button cabinet switches and all EOS switches. I then checked the flipper mechanisms. There was some play in the plunger assembly and the coils seemed loose. So I ended up re-rebuilding the flippers so to speak...I loosened everything, adjusted things and retightened it all back up all the while paying close attention each step making sure everything was done right. Once I got done I noticed a huge difference in how the game played. The Flippers are the strongest they ever have been. I even beat my high score the first game I played! One thing I noticed though...the flippers both have an audible hum when the flipper buttons are held. Not really sure what caused that but I hadn't noticed it before.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
From: $ 90.00
Tools
Pincoder Store
 
From: $ 9.00
$ 9.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
From: $ 11.00
$ 27.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 11.00
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
 
$ 170.00
Displays
Digipinball Shop
 
$ 65.00
Boards
Pinball Haus
 
$ 12.50
Lighting - Led
RoyGBev Pinball
 
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-scorpion-needs-more-speed- and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.