The layout is too safe? I swear it sounds like you have played it twice and feel like you need to critique it in the most negative way any time you get the chance.

Sure, the ramps are easy to hit- why? Because they are the core function of progressing in the deep rules of the game. The ramps have many functions such as locks, changing modes on the book LCD, starting a mode, adding time to a mode, scoring on modes, loading wind lance, setting up to hit beasts to work towards Beast Frenzy multiball, etc. if they were hard to hit the game would be frustrating and it would kill the machine right away.

Shooting the left and right orbits is very difficult, and the same with the left and right holes. Going for the Elf and Man drop targets can be very risky and puts the ball out of control. You are constantly on your toes trying to regain control as many parts of the playfield speed the ball to Mach 3 and you need to figure out how to gain control and hit the shots to finish the objectives in the modes.

During multiball and you get 4 or 5 balls out there, the game is frantic and fast paced and those shots, safe as you call them, when missed - will end that multiball extremely fast as the playfield gets insanely packed when stacking with Beast Frenzy. Not to mention stacking modes trying to hit specific shots during a multiball in order to score big, then trying to nail the captive ball shot which can become super tight when both the upper Beasts are popped up.

Dude, you simply need more time to understand and progress in the game to get how good it is. No need for me to convince you further, learn the machine then your criticisms can be taken more seriously.

Great points about the game but don't even bother with him. He's overly negative about the game and doesn't like it. Thats fine, not everyone will like it just like any other game. However, a majority of time when something positive about the game is said he has to jump down the posters throat to tell them why they are wrong and often in a rude / condescending way (if he's the user I'm thinking of). Thankfully Pinside has an ignore feature, haha

Honestly, people who favor super fast flowly games that focus on scoring opportunities (MET, ACDC, Iron Man, etc) rather then modes that are designed to make the player feel like they are on a quest (TH, LOTR, WOZ) while working the entire playfield won't like The Hobbit. I like playing both types of rulesets but in a home environment I prefer rulesets found on The Hobbit as I find them more engaging and longer lasting.

This is a good point. I don't go into threads of pins that I don't like to post that I don't like it. And if I did it would be 1 post - not over and over with I don't like this or that or I want to like it but I can't, blah blah blah.

Agreed, but it is a symptom of the mentally challenged to repeat the same point over and over. Most cannot help themselves.

Don't think I would go that far, but to post over and over about the fact they don't like it is odd to me. I mean, what the hell is point!?

EDIT: A don't say it is constructive criticism - because it is rarely presented in that fashion.

This is a thread about someone's review of the game. This isn't the official Hobbit thread or a JJP thread. It's about critiquing the game. Skyemont, keep clapping because all you do is repeat the same stuff about The Hobbit over and over. You don't see the irony in your cheering on his comment? Amazing.

The premise of this thread was to talk about the layout and how the rules apply to that layout. That is WHY WE ARE HERE. If you want to post feature sets or talk about something else, go into the official threads. I don't post there because I don't own a Hobbit and I don't care to talk about the game critically there. That's why this thread exists. Take off your JJP lanyard, your Hobbit underoos, and deal with the fact that the point of some threads on Pinside are to invite critique.

The point is that they don't have to be hard, they just have to be interesting or at least something of a challenge. The fact that they're so easy is what harms the game. I would move progression to other shots where possible. You can get way too far just hammering those ramps over and over. On the latest code I put up over a million points by doing pretty much just that and hitting pop ups. It took a while, sure, but it was a walk in the park.

Guys, I want to like The Hobbit. I REALLY want to like it. I was really excited when it was unveiled. I didn't like WoZ a lot at first, but I came to love it. The big difference between WoZ and TH was that I felt right off the bat that the layout in WoZ had a lot of opportunity, we just needed the code to mature. On TH, I feel like the potential is more limited based on the layout. That's not to say that Keith can't do great things with it, they're just starting from a harder starting point.

I'm wondering how you can get so far just hitting the ramps over and over, seeing as how many of the times the ramps give you nothing towards your score and simple change modes, lock for Smaug MB, start a mode, etc. popups aren't even worth many points. Some of the most valuable shots in the game are having to hit individual drop targets or yellow targets, and an actual sequence of shots during a mode- most of which don't even utilize the ramp. Many modes require you to hit various things to build the value you get from a ramp, so blindlessly hitting a ramp over and over is not valuable- building that award value is the challenge- something you've never mentioned because you obviously didn't know that.

I am going to stand by my original thought and say you have not played this game more then twice and had no idea what you are doing, because what you have said so far doesn't even make sense. There's no way you scored over 1M doing what you just said. To get 1M+ is extremely difficult, and I've only done it once playing many games over the last few weeks. It's not an easy machine to put up a good score at all.

I don't really care if you believe me or not, but it happened. I'm not the only one to go over 1 million and not really understand the whys and hows of it that well. It felt like it took a good 30 minutes to do. Steve Bowden scored 1.4 million and didn't have a clue how or why, but also said it took a very long time. It's possible if you just keep shooting safe and having good multiballs.

You can do that with any pinball machine though. It's probably not the "right" way to play it, but if I was competing, it's what I would do. I would park on that machine and just stay safe for an hour if it's what it took.

I'd probably not like TH either based on what you are saying, you only played the game trying to loop the ramps and hit the pop ups. Any pinball would suck if that's all you understood about the rules and gameplay. Also, quite the luck hitting all the objectives in order to build values to even get a score close to 1M, and even exceeding it.

What you described and criticized on TH without knowing the gameplay and rules is like someone saying TWD sucks because it was so easy to start a mode and loop the Riot shot over and over, start prison multiball, and loop a shot over and over again to get a big score. In fact I had a friend do just that. It's not until you understand the deep code Lyman programmed for TWD would you actually appreciate the game, rather then bragging about a score looping the same shot over and over again.

It's not ALL I shot for, but that was the basic strategy the last few times I played it. I did shoot for other stuff, sure, but I just found myself coming back to those ramps until I got into multiball or something else.

I know it sounds like you have already made your decision and have a set opinion, but I'd really suggest finding someone with a dialed in HOU machine and learning the ruleset. The layout makes sense and works great with the rules and following gameplay instruction, I think you are missing out on a great game.

I'm far from set in my opinion. Games I didn't care for initially have often become some games that I've really liked. Mustang, TWD, Metallica, and WoZ are just a few games that I didn't like all that much when they were brand new but really enjoy now.

This seems strange because the first ramp shot will light the inlane and on the next looped ramp shot a pop up will block the entrance to the ramp. So at max you can only make two ramp shots in a row before you are forced to hit something else.

You are of course welcome to your opinions, but I find it ironic that in the Ghostbuster threads where you are an LE pre-orderer, you are very vocal against people who keep posting the same negative stuff over and over. Yet here you are in the Hobbit threads doing the same thing.

I didn't say combos, just that I take the ramp when it's open and knock down any pop ups that appear. Again, read everything I said. It's not all I did, but that's the basic strategy. Take the safe shots and as long as you keep moving forward, roll with it.

WoZ saw changes to its code that altered how you progressed or the effectiveness of certain strategies. We're a long way from seeing the end of strategy evolution on TH, I'm sure. I still think tighter shots (like if this was all condensed into a standard body), would have been good for the game.

True, if the code were anywhere close to being final I would be concerned. What I expect to really bring this game home are the rules tying in mode selection, mode completions and wizard modes, which haven't been implemented yet.

At the moment though, I enjoy exploring the modes, learning about what's in the game and getting a feel for the shots. Score isn't a big deal. I like the mix of shots; easy (ramp, captive ball), medium (orbits, timed pop-ups) and hard (vuks, roving drops). I also like the way the shots are used in many of the modes.

After LOTR and TSPP, does anyone honestly think Keith will leave the Hobbit with only hitting two ramps and some pop-ups as the best strategy for getting high scores and/or advancing in the game?

To blow off all of the modes and not participate in the game as it is, just to make the ramp over and over, seems silly to me.

But I guess that one could cradle the ball and wait for the 31 modes to time out, and not try to get into the challenge of the game, or attempt any of the really difficult and rewarding aspects of the rules.

But of course only participate in the multiballs when available, this would take a long time.

And then report back that the game is too easy and boring.

My question is....Really? WTF?

Sounds like he wants or expects the game to play like MET or ACDC, just bash things and hit the same shots over and over for big points / start multiball ...TH is not that type of game.

TH is a game where you progress through the themes story through its 31 main modes, attempt to reach its multiple wizard modes, collect items along the way and do all of that in unique and interesting ways by working the entire playfield.

If a player likes pins that makes them feel like they are on a quest with multiple story based objectives then they will love The Hobbit. If a player prefers games that are super fast and centered around scoring points versus progressing through modes then they will not be a fan of The Hobbit.

What we've seen so far with the games ruleset is just a fraction of the entire picture as there is still much more to come with future code updates.

Seeing how LOTR and TSPP are 2 of my top 10 games, I think you're painting with too broad of a brush. The big difference between those games and The Hobbit is the number of and the variety of shots. That's really the difference. The layouts of LOTR and TSPP are far more suited to the "journey" type of game.

LOTR and TSPP are two of my favorites as well.

I suspect your tune may change as the game develops. I think there is plenty for Keith to work with to make this a great adventure style game.

Have you played the Windlance mode yet, where a right ramp shot is diverted to load the windlance, the kick-out then sends the ball to the upper flipper which you use to hit the targets below Smaug to advance in the mode?

TH is not going to be for everyone. It's not a big deal. If someone does not like TH, who cares. I don't like stern games to much but doesn't stop stern lovers loving stern.

I probably saw it once or twice, but I don't know the names of modes at this point. This weekend I'll get more time on the game and will pay more close attention to those sorts of thing now that I know the shot map well enough.

Definitely pay attention to what is lit on the ramps and what hitting those ramps will start/do/etc. Then once you start a mode by hitting the right ramp, look to the small playfield LCD for instructions on what do to during those modes. Also, know that hitting and defeating all pop up beasts (effectively lighting the yellow insert in front of them) to work towards Beast Frenzy, which is a 2 ball multiball. Stacking that w/ Smaug MB and then stacking modes and looking what to do during MB will provide a completely different experience then hitting ramp shots over and over as you did in the past. Also, try to hit the captive ball as many times as you can during MB and build up that bonus multiplier- comboing to the third flipper works good, as you can smack that captive ball pretty easily with the 3rd flipper, and also Dwarf drop targets in front of Smaug.

He's up to 34 posts now.

It's called a discussion. Wow, what a concept.

I thought this was a Keith thread... To see if he's got any new ideas left to turn TH into something worthwhile.

Repeating yourself ad nauseam is hardly what I would call a discussion.

But....carry on, as we all know that you will.

"We" ran him off Pinside - jeez all the JJP threads turn into this crap

I haven't been repeating myself. I've given my opinions, been asked to explain, and have done so. I've also discussed "issues" with the pop ups, talked about the upper flipper stuff, and even some code. But I can't control it if you only want to see certain things. That's totally up to you if you want to pick and choose. You and your buddies are the crazy dudes stalking out the number of posts I've made. Feel free to actually read them and tell me where I've been unfair or unwilling to discuss things without justification.

People need to learn the difference between "I don't like X because of Y" or "X has potential but needs more of Y" and "X sucks and that's all I have to say!" If they could do that, maybe we could avoid sending every thread to the garbage pile.

I am honestly an excellent example of someone who will take a bath on a game I don't like. If The Hobbit sucked, I would dump it. As it stands, it's the game I keep going back to for one more game. I do totally agree with you that people support the games they own. However, I don't need to keep the game, for some reason I just like it. I think it's the randomness that an EM game brings that draws me back to it every time. That and the code is obviously well written and will only get better.

Finally, I think it's always helpful when you can have 3 or more games to choose from. It gives you a much better persepective on what you want to keep and what is not getting played. For me personally, I'd much rather play THLE than MB, CV, etc.

TH, as it stands now, is definitely better than CV. We'll see about MB over time.

How do u like Rob Zombie's pin ???

I'll let you know in 2 weeks!

Keep up the good work and reports. I'm very interested in TH.

I'm a bit "meh" on the Hobbit at this moment. We've had one on location for about a month now and I've put many games on it from the code out of box to the most recent update. I get a TSPP vibe from it in that I don't need to take a lot of risks in single ball play and I can use the main multiball as a crutch to do everything else. It's kind of boring honestly, particularly if you are a controlled player.

Someone also mentioned there are too many safe shots, and I completely agree--the two ramps and both VUKs feed the ball safely to the flippers, and I think that was a mistake. It doesn't help that the game feels very slow. It could just be the way the game is set on location or it could be a power situation, but I'd like to try it in a home setting to see if it's any better.

I do play this game and wonder if the rules will really improve it. I have owned a couple of KEF games (TSPP and WPT) and I have played some of his other ones a lot (LOTR and WoZ), so I know what he is capable of, but I have this nagging feeling that no matter what he does with it, the game is still going to be a slog. Not really his fault, more so the fault lays on whoever designed the playfield. Either way, I'm willing to continue to give it a chance until the code is done a year or two from now.

Have you learned nothing from this thread? You don't need to really play the game before giving an opinion.

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Right on man, thank you for your opinion and contribution here, as we are all entitled to them, and will have our own taste and preferences.

It reminds me of last month- we went out to dinner with some friends to a really well known and high end local steakhouse. I ordered a prime filet Mignon, cooked perfectly at medium rare. One of our friends ordered a rib eye, well done. We agreed to exchange a piece of each other's steak as we were all debating over what people always debate over steak- how it should be cooked. I tried his rib eye, he tried my filet- I thought the well done piece of rib eye tasted like beef jerky, and he thought the filet tasted raw and he said it made his stomach churn. Crazy, such a completely different opinion and taste.

One thing is for sure though... eat whatever you like the best, and play whatever pin you like better. At the end of the day, medium rare filet's are the best, and the Hobbit is a kick ass game.

Enjoy your well done ribeyes

Now that you are up to 37 posts in a thread about a game you profess to dislike, I'm going to call it LOVE.

I was dead on this morning... Hobbit has you hooked, and you love talking about it. Cool. Excellent discussion points.

I'm glad you're dedicated to keeping up with my posts and post counts, but at some point you have to realize that it makes you look downright weird.

Anyway, how many owners have asked for and installed the plastic pieces for the pop ups? At Pin-a-Go-Go they had them in both machines and Butch said that not even one ball got stuck the entire weekend on either machine.

Well I am downright weird. We all are. Commercial games in our houses??? Weird. You could have stopped there and everyone would call it a quip. Unfortunately...

That is the basic form of internet trolling. You attempt to redirect me to stop the other side, and then take a dig at the subject. Everyone already knows that was an issue (and was worse on some games). We also know there is a fix coming, but you jump to a reminder of it to see if you can make people feel worse about the game by pointing out a flaw. It's kind of a weak effort, but I'm sure you will try to improve upon it.

So your style might work. Say something bad about DaveH, then say something about a flaw in the game. It might work if you keep coming back to chat about a game you don't even like (that has you hooked).

I think Silver Ball Museum has a Hobbit

Yes, they do.

You have issues, dude. Such paranoia isn't healthy. You would have fit right in in Salem. This is the last time I'm going to even respond to you, because you're clearly irrational.

Anyway, I'll get another shot at The Hobbit this weekend. Should have lots of opportunity to really sink my teeth in and try to see it in another light.

You're just realizing this now?

I look forward to your continued insight from playing a game you don't like (I'm the one with problems?).

Nobody cares!

Is there one on location around Fairfax? If so, can you tell me where? Would love to come and try it there.

Yeah there is one at a seafood place right on 236 past Fairfax Main Street. "Red Zone" or something... nice selection of pins and well taken care of. Also have GOT and it's where I got hooked on TWD

The Hobbit plays a TAD slow as it seems like it could use a little more incline. Oh bring a lot of ones as the bar rarely seems to have enough change for the players. People that work there are nice... the seafood customers - apparently not so much (judging from the shellacking they take on Yelp!).