Or Lyman is a Keith level programmer

In all seriousness I don't think you will get a lot of debate about those two being the best at what they do. They each have a different style but both are masters.

Going back to the FIRST post, I haven't commented on TH as much as I had on WOZ when it first arrived.

But only because we've been PLAYING TH so darned much. I occasionally read the comments here, and the anti Hobbit reviews (well SOME of them anyway) are just so laughably off base that I have a hard time taking them seriously at all. It's like they're playing an entirely different pin than the one I'm playing.

The variety of shots are great. This thing plays like a shooting gallery. If one is looking for a ton of flow (and, at times, this one has its share but its not a flow beast like, what, 5 of the last 7 (?) Stern releases), then this might not be for you. But I don't WANT another flow pin. I've got a few. They're all over the place.

This pin defies characterization for me. I don't have ANYTHING from either the DMD or LCD era that is like this.

The troll heads orchestration change the character of this layout on its head. Skill shot is different. Ring button used in ways that I've never seen lockdown bumper buttons used before.

And the multimedia show makes this best use of film footage for a pin HANDS DOWN. That includes sound/music.

And the show is just getting started.

Great game. Entire family loves it.

If you liked the long ball times/journey aspect of Stern's LOTR, though this isn't a flow beast, you'll love the journey aspect of this pin, too. Spinner-map progression was a great addition: I'm glad it made it into the game.

Haven't hooked up a subwoofer yet, but I'd imagine Smaug would sound great with it.

Stays in collection. Unique, and nothing like it.

Hit the nail on the head. This isn't a flow machine like a Steve Ritchie pin, not at all.. but thats why I love it. Its such a refreshing change of pace from the typical Stern pin. We haven't even turned on MET or TWD since TH arrived, its our current favorite pin. Everyone comments that the LCD screens are overkill-- but theres no way a game this deep and intricate could have played the same with a DMD, too many things to do- too many objectives in the modes- that could never be explained properly with a DMD. Simply put, TH only proves to me the more I play it that Stern is way overdue moving to an LCD.

My GB LE arrives in a couple of weeks, but I am not even looking forward to it much, as I think I am going to be underwhelmed with it sitting next to Hobbit. It set a such a new standard for pinball machines for me and the family now.

Definitely hook to a subwoofer..the bass in the game is awesome, and you are right- when Smaug talks, it rumbles with such a nice deep tone.

Both of these reviews are dead on and exactly how I feel. I have classic Williams/Bally games in my collection. I have owned over 300 pins. I too, get up, go in my game room, go past my Monster Bash, Addams Gold, etc... cut on the Hobbit to start my adventure. If you basically do price comparisons to other pins and companies, you get SO MUCH MORE with JJP it's not even funny. There are fun pinballs out there but I know 2 friends who got GBLE and spent close to 10k. What, are you kidding me???? I think GB is decent but no Stern is comparable to what u get in a JJP game. Sorry!!!

Like what? You JJP guys make me laugh.

Well, no...you know I agree with you quite a bit, but Skyemont has a point here. In terms of BOM, JJP gives more value for the dollar. In terms of fun, it's probably Stern.

Again, I wish everything didn't devolve into a this vs. that argument, but I guess it's inevitable.

You're going full Panzer.

First of all, GBLE isn't "close to 10k," it's $8,000 tops. Secondly, GB has far more going on than TH does as far as gameplay goes.

How many people have gotten their LE that you can make that call? Pretty sure the number stands at zero.

With all due respect, how does GB have more going on? Dwights code thus far is about as deep as a second graders math test vs a college level exam that is TH's ruleset. The more I play TH the more I realize just how deep the modes and objectives are to complete it. GB is literally start a mode, and hit a couple things that are lit. It's very basic, and little explanation needed. GB is difficult from a physical standpoint, as in dangerous shots make it hard to progress- TH is difficult as there are many objectives that must be met within a certain timeframe- and literally 3-4X the modes as GB.

So I have to ask- and this coming from a GB Purchaser- how does GB have more going on? A motorized Slimer? Less modes and purely linear? This is why I feel I'm going to be disappointed with GB and I have to admit I'm considering selling it before opening the box. As we have come to appreciate and put on many games of TH, videos of GB look very basic the machine looks more frustrating then fun to play like TH.

I wouldn't have thought this on the first day or first time playing TH, but the more time I get on it the more I realize just how different a level this machine really is. Anyone who has played a few games on a location or at a show would never get the chance to fully appreciate it.

The video of the GB LE I watched today of people getting one cheap drain after another, and their faces of frustration and no fun, along with no progression anywhere- just the same ol couple modes to start, and barely opportunity to start multiballs- made me think- what's there to be excited about get GB? Besides the theme and artwork and music and sounds we all love, the game really is on a totally basic dense level compared to Keith's code, sorry..

Depends what you define as gameplay.

If you define gameplay as the features of a Pinball machine, such as its modes and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects. Then the Hobbit already has a LOT more than the Ghostbusters. Sorry, more lanes != more gameplay.

If you define gameplay as Ray Parker Jr songs, then yes, GB has a lot more gameplay then the Hobbit.

I'm not badmouthing GB at all.

I'm just saying TH is a completely different pin experience than anything out there. Even WOZ.

The very nature of the playfield layout changes a lot based on how those heads pop up.

You NEED to look at the LCD Book and preferably the main screen as well to keep track of things: am I TRYING to hit drop targets or AVOID targets? The permutations of the shots are dizzying. And Keefer can do all kinds of sophisticated things based on the ability to deliver info with the screens.

The current Stern platform simply can't do this. GB looks great, really. I'm especially a fan of ZombieYeti's art. But the game itself doesn't look radically different from what I already have from Stern lately.

Hobbit is DIFFERENT. Very different. It's definitely a long ball time game. Some people just don't like that. But since the modes are so SO varied, and the eye candy that gets unlocked is also varied, that the "journey" aspect of the game becomes its main thrust.

Some people like that. Some don't. But it definitely has an epic feel that I don't THINK I'll get out of GB (for better or worse).

In terms of bang for the buck, it SEEMS like more hardware on The Hobbit. But why even go there? Just from a limited physical FOOTPRINT persepective, for me Hobbit justifies me making room for it. GB would be welcome, but I'd get rid of one of my 3 or 4 pins that GB reminds me of to make room for it.

That's just how I sees it. And my family, based on their plays.

Listen I agree with overall value in that you are getting more material with a JJP pin but the JJP fellas really like to hammer home the fact that Stern is not delivering for the roughly the same price which is bullshit, I'm no Stern fanboy but I'll take STLE, TWDLE, TRONLE etc. anyday over WOZ and TH so that particular arguement of value just doesn't matter, I'll pay for fun before I pay for materials, IM is worth what 5K and so is TZ way more shit in TZ but I prefer IM, see what I mean.

If you laughed them I'm happy. Again, I like some stern pins, I do. I'm just looking at value here. It's common sense. No brainier. JMO.

Listen deep down I want to be a JJP owner and was in on TH but backed out, I'm hoping Pats game or a cool theme in the future will finally get me in there, I'm thinking JJP #4 Blade Runner.

Limited shots definitely equate to limited gameplay. Yeah, sure, you can give me different ways to use those shots, but when so few are of consequence, it all feels like the same flavor with a different wrapper.

I understand. I'm hoping Pats game rocks. I know it's a game like Whirlwind beefed up from what I heard. Stern just needs to up there game. They can push quanity but not quality.

I keep hearing that. But I can't see it being true. More "stuff" does not equal better quality. It just means "more stuff".

I have a pile of Sterns (and have owned and sold a lot more) and they are BY FAR the most reliable pins I own. I had my first major issue last week, a flipper transistor blew on my Met LE for no reason. The fuse saved the coil. A $1 transistor and 5 minutes work and it was working again.

When I toured the states last month, I saw 6 WOZs. 5 of them were turned off. Including the one at PAPA. The only one that was working was at VolunteerPins house and it had been playing up and doing weird things. He can verify that.

I am not a JJP hater nor a Stern lover. I love all pinball. I look forward to playing the Hobbit when it arrived here. I am just honestly reporting my experience and what I have seen.

So please don't just thumb me down because you don't like what I said.

rd

After playing GB Pro tonight and seeing just how poorly it was designed , my next pin if I had the money for one would be a Hobbit , it is such a more advanced and higher quality machine . Play a hobbit it feels like a Mercedes in build quality and a Stern feels like a Ford Taurus compared to it . I just wish JJP came out with better themes and more frequent because they give you more machine for the money , Ghostbuster's is junk compared to a hobbit i can say that now because I've put on over 25 games on each, hobbit is a real unique and high end pinball machine

Sure. That is why No Fear is the best game of all time. 2 outer orbits. 2 Inner orbits. 2 ramps, 1 ramp leading to a warp style shot. All the shots you want. Perfect flow. Which means, UNLIMITED GAMEPLAY

Its not BS to many of us. STLE, TWDLE, Tron LE, etc they are all great and fun games but none of those deliver the same amount of value compared to WOZ and TH. Closest is STLE as at least it has some really cool LE features to help justify the price...sadly Stern stopped doing that.

I paid $8k for my Hobbit LE after deciding to pass on GB LE for the same price. There is no way I'm going to pay $8k for NIB pinball machine that still has a DMD, doesn't have a real backglass (translite), has the power button in the head of the game (what a dumb cost savings move by Stern), lacks a high quality powder coat, and only has 7 color changing inserts.

There is a new pattern with Stern LE's and it is sadly to offer less and less with each release.

JJP continues to offer the best value in pinball at the LE price point. Also, you need to factor in the time and money each company devotes to code development. JJP invests far more time and money into code development then Stern ever will.

Seriously though people should just buy whatever game is more fun to them. We are all going to have different opinions on these games. Like I've said before thankfully we have so many great games to argue about, haha.

Oops, exiting thread again, just wanted to help keep things balanced :p

Somehow, I don't think we've seen the last of you here That's ok.

Lol. I added some of the insulting anti JJP trolls to my ignore list for a more pleasant Pinside browsing experience. Now they can argue amongst themselves.

Perfect. I need to do the same.

Another classic pinside battle of personal tastes. We all like different things, it's a good thing, and thankfully there are now multiple pinball manufactures to create a variety of styles of machines. It isn't cool to be negative and bash people for something they like. At the same time, you don't need to try and sell something to someone they don't want. They will either have a change of heart once they play a machine, or maybe it really isn't their taste.

Needless to say, I am waiting for my Hobbit, and am looking forward to it. I've played it several times and have enjoyed it. Not to mention, I know Keith will knock it out of the ballpark...there is already a lot there now, and it will just continue to get better.

As always...Don't Feed the Trolls!!

Again I agree but it does depend on how you value a pinball machine, I take more than the materials and coding etc. into consideration, how much is theme worth, funfactor, shots and so on, which is all relevant to the individual, but I get ur point.

It's hard to argue about "fun factor" with any objectivity because it's all a matter of personal preference.

However, relative value as it pertains to what a manufacturer puts into a game can be discussed with some objectivity. If you consider both a GBLE and Hobbit at $8k, the GBLE would be more expensive if you just add a color dmd and invisiglass to make it somewhat equivalent.

Certainly, if you don't like the way a game plays (layout plus rules) it may not matter how great the theme, art, sound or toys are.

At least the OP in the Ghostbusters thread admitted his review was "half ass."

There are no right or wrong answers

I love how TH is shaping up

Gonna have to consider this one again

How do you know this is the case ?

Just take WOZ's ruleset, audio work, FX animation work, etc and then toss in coding for a platform more advanced then Sterns (26" LCD display, 100% color changing inserts + GI, more features overall, etc) and top it all off with 3 years of regular code updates and its easy to tell that JJP invests more time and money into code development.

Also, I notice many of the rules / modes in JJP games to be more unique and offer more variety overall then those found in Stern games.

Same thing is occuring with TH.

Not only am I hearing it "like you" I'm seeing it as well.

Let's just add some balance here. The coding on some Stern games is superb. TWD has some of the best rules I've ever come across.
It is easier for JJP to put three years of code updates into one one game because up until very recently that was the only game they had.

Stern has in the past been lax in their code support for games but I think they have really upped their game lately.

Anyhoo, there is no need for this thread to degenerate into a Stern vs JJP debate. Let's hope that both companies (and the newer ones) go from strength to strength and produce great, diverse games for years to come.

I like Cherry

They've coded 1 1/4 games in like 4 years.

Thats great news! Now we won't have to constantly read the repetitive and obsessive jjp defensive rants every time someone has a difference of opinion.

I think one reason the Heighway wide bodies play faster is they don't use physical switches. Nothing to slow the ball down. Just a theory though.

Game speed is a matter of design not size. It's simple enough to keep a ball at top speed by adding extra pops, slings, and flippers. BH is a good example of a relatively speedy widebody.

After years of threads and discussions I can still say I haven't a clue what people mean by "flow". Less ball stoppage? More ramps? Far too subjective to pretend one can apply it to TH with any level of accuracy.

This is why I think the LCD screens are so interesting. Not just the bling, but the ability to use them to affect the kinds of rules you can write. You can just show more rules, more icons, more nuance.

Red DMDs are just by their nature more limiting. That's doesn't always mean bad! But it's good to see pinball able to try new things.

That was exactly my point. That's why I said:

Those are all design elements (other than things like a waxed pf).

It isn't just the angle of the PF that is responsible for ball speed.

It's not even just ball speed. With The Hobbit, there's a lot of open space, as most the shots are at the edges of the playfield. This creates a long time between flips and the ball returning to the flippers. Even though the ball is in motion, it's a lot longer between flips than what you get with most games. Whether that's bad or not for you, that's totally a matter of personal perspective.

There's a lot of open space...
....as long as all the troll heads are down. But they pop up and down like whack-a-moles depending on mode and inlane triggers. When that's the case, especially wolf and spider, the ball bounces back VERY quickly. Quicker than standard body.

In Hobbit, the heads pop up much, much, much more than the troll heads in MM. They significantly affect the speed with which the ball returns. And they're highly variable. Which is why it is hard to characterize Hobbit. Which is what makes it so unique.

Keefer can be VERY creative with the modes on this game, between great information delivery to the player via LCDs and wide variety of targets to orchestrate in both up and down positions, and targets behind drops, too. It's a shooting gallery game.

Ok, but at the same time one company is pushing out a game every 3 to 4 months and the other every 3 to 4 years, I'm sure that has an affect on the cost, overhead and what not, really who cares, I just want more games to play and hope JJP starts to roll out at least 1 a year.

Depth of ruleset doesn't make a game better or worse. There are plenty of horribly complicated rulesets that are just no fun, and plenty of games that lack any kind of decent rules. This is a subjective area. I can't argue with you that TH seems a lot deeper than GB, but that's what JJP is going for with their games. They couldn't be more different than Stern, and that is a good thing to see some variety.

I'm the opposite. It doesn't really matter to me if it costs Stern more to put out 3 to 4 games a year. I judge each game on it's own merits and relative value.

I also don't have the money or space to buy 3 to 4 new games a year so one great game every couple of years is a better fit for me. I hope JJP can get to this level of production without reducing their BOM and quality.

I'm just happy that playing "relative value" is as fun or more fun for some people as playing pinball is for others. I mean, we can all love different things, and that's a thing. I guess. I don't know anymore.

Me too.

I must admit, relative value is a pretty big consideration for me. I don't care if one of Stern's "The Pin" models was the funnest machine I'd ever played, I would not be able to bring myself to pay $5k for it if that's what Stern was selling it for.

I understand that not everyone feels this way and that's okay too.

The interesting thing is I feel they had to implement the LCD screens in order to make games with very deep rulesets, so it doesn't complicate them. By having clear explanations of what to do, how to do it, and when to do it- all on a 27" HD screen, and in TH's case- a secondary LCD screen, it allows those complicated rulesets that would normally be hard to understand on a DMD- totally understandable on JJP's games.

I think the LCD screens are very underappreciated- but the more I play TH, the more I realize if that game had a DMD instead of LCD's it would be very complicated and tough to understand what to do. Playing TH for a week straight, then turning on TWD and MET, was almost like stepping into a time machine. Such great pins, but feel on such another level compared to TH's sound, display, widebody, and very deep objectives in the rules.

Really? Try saying anything negative about Ghost Busters. I dare you. The Stern nutswingers on this site far outweigh the JJP fanboys.

You can get pretty deep/complex without a LCD (LotR). JJP took it beyond that, so the LCD was necessary. But that has also been my gripe with the idea of the LCD, well with WOZ at least. Since I don't own one, I need to keep looking up at the LCD to know what is going on whenever I play it. It doesn't matter how clearly the rules are described. It just isn't well suited for the casual game here and there. There is a learning curve on it, and it is very busy. Nothing wrong with that, especially for owning one. It is like an RPG pin. It is just a completely different experience, and I'm glad they're doing it.

The mini LCD on TH is nothing short of awesome. They found a clever and unique way of putting an extremely functional embellishment right into the game. I'm sure it is easier to understand rules quickly vs WOZ. I still need to find somewhere to play TH before I can say anything more about it though.