The last show I was at, the line for GB and Full throttle were 2-1 over The Hobbit. Free play and guys willingly choosing the other two over the latter. I think that speaks volumes. And yes it had the latest code.

So someone comes on here and does THEIR initial view of TH. Guy played it a dozen times and placed HIS opinion. That is what boards are for. He pointed out the good and the bad of the game from HIS perspective. I don't think he did it in a way to offend anyone.

With that said, I tend to agree that the playfield is a little more open than I PERSONALLY would care for. Code can and has changed a lot. Especially with JJP games. There is a ton of stuff going on under that machine that could make it an awesome title. So give the coding a chance to mature. Being a WoZ owner, I can say that the code has just gotten better and better.

I would also agree that TH is really one of the nicest machines to look at. Just nothing short of jaw dropping.

Peace all!

After reading the original post, these replies are so predictable.
Some people are obsessed with hyping games they are in on.
It's just a toy, why do people take it so personally?

Back when pinball machines didn't cost $8,000, and people didn't pay these obscene amounts of money 3 years in advance and pray they haven't been Jpopped it wasn't as much of an issue.

People are investing more money than ever in these games, and as such, are investing more personally than they ever have before. You'll never see someone get as defensive over their purchase of a $400 Big Brave, because they just don't give that much of a shit. "You don't like big brave? Your loss it's a great game!" Instead of "you have a sinister agenda! You are a complete douchebag and you are wrong this the best game ever just shut your pie hole and stop being a hater mchateface you stupid hater!!!"

The more expensive these games, the more of a life and death struggle it becomes. God forbid your wife makes it to the boards and finds that the game you've been trying to convince her is both awesome and a sound financial investment is not actually universally beloved in the pinball community.

That's how I see it, and many others do as well. Maybe we are wrong. Maybe we are crazy.

But it just might be a lunatic you are looking for.

Whoa, not a toy! Pinball machine, have you ever been shocked by a lego? I think not! And I am going to take a guess at this, but I don't think you would let a kid go digging around in your pinball machine working on it with his or her set of plastic screw driver and wrench!!!

Do we really need 5 x threads of people giving reasons they don't like the TH layout?

2 x MM trolls = good?
4 x Hobbit beasts = Bad?
2 x ramps and 2 x orbit shots on every single pin = good?
2 x Ramps and 2 x orbit shots on TH = bad?

Not sure why JJP draws so much MORE criticism than any other company. Seems like people want them to fail.

While I agree with what you're saying, the former CEO of JJP said (referencing the jpop situation), "You had the money to burn for a big toy that nobody needs". If a leading manufacturer of pinball machines referred to them as "toys", they must be categorized as toys, right?

I don't think this is true, and here's why. The OP clearly is expressing a simple opinion - I'm sure we can agree that based on the OP's posts, he's not someone dedicated to seeing JJP fail. He simply didn't like the game and the playfield. But then you have people that come on here and bash his opinion and point out he must be wrong because of all this stuff that's on the game. I have the exact same opinion of the game, and I owned it. I just couldn't get into it, starting from my first game. WOZ on the other hand - I enjoy a lot more, starting from the first game. A completely different feeling playing WOZ the first time vs TH, and it continued. I said the exact same thing in my review - it just feels like the playfield could have been better. And you know what? That's actually true because TH had quite a few things stripped from the original idea, starting with a much more interactive Smaug that you could shoot at ala AFM etc. Unfortunately this had to be changed over time, and went from a greatly interactive toy to simply a turning head that talks. I do think that if TH could have been realized in it's original vision, it would have been much better.

Now I'm certainly not a JJP hater - I enjoy WOZ, despite the theme which I have no desire for, which is a pretty difficult task IMO. I don't agree on your "count" aspect because I think that can be a negative. I didn't enjoy the beasts at all - they came up way too much and to me it took away enjoyment of the game. With MM, they come up rarely. It's like saying MM would be better with 4 destructing castles, or AFM would be better with 3 main alien ships to shoot at. That's not necessarily the case - more doesn't equal better. It's all about implementation, design, and code.

I'm personally glad that there's quite a few people enjoying TH - I'm hoping for more games from JJP, and I think considering these are their first two attempts - that's pretty incredible.

Key word, Former.
I have not seen this article. Could you post a link would like to read that.

Draining the thread nothing to see here...

Sorry, wasn't talking about OP, was talking about heni1977's comments.
The Beasts pop up a lot the first time and then come up a lot less after that. They come up in modes if you are fighting spiders/orcs etc.

For me a pin is only as good as its software. JD is an example of a pin which I think has possibly the best layout with the most amount of shots available. Some very satisfying. But the software leaves a lot to be desired. Layout can only get you so far.

The last 3 great games from Stern are TWD, AC/DC and MET. The lightshow, intensity, sound, the software on that pin are all fantastic, and they were all coded by the same guy. There is nothing magically special about the layout of these 3 pins.

OP mentioned that TH was a shell of a game. Well all pins are a shell of a game to start without. Stern pumps out 3 of them every year so pinside can psycho analyze each one to death but a couple of months later its on the next big thing. TH takes 3+ years to come out so its the same old talk for a long time.

I don't know why I get sucked into these conversations.

Great points.

Amazing software support, unique + deep rules (over 30 modes) that offer variety, custom music (over 30 tracks) from a group that does music for big budget films, tech (main LCD, mini LCD, RGB lighting, uncompressed audio, etc) and an incredible amount of audio + FX work are reasons why I went with TH over other games. Then theres the fact that high quality powder coat armor is included as well as invisiglass , a shaker motor and a real backglass at the LE level.

All of those items justify the $8k price tag. I do not see other companies making the same level of commitment and offering as much value in their games as JJP does.

My perspective is that I own TSPP, LOTR and WOZ as part of a 10 pin collection, and they would be the last 3 pins I would ever sell. TH is on order with a tiny deposit but could back out easily if I wanted. I've sold 16 pins in 2 years and none of the reasons was due to the layout of the pin.

I think WPT is closest with 30 distinct shots.

This isn't how shots are counted. Each bank of drops is one shot. Each bank of stand ups is one shot. This is how shots have always been counted, it gets confusing to arbitrarily change that.

No. That's how you are counting the games shots. There are mutliple points in the game where you have to hit a cetain drop target or standup target. If you have to hit a specific target its a unique shot. You can't just hit any drop target in a bank to progress through certain modes.

If a player has to aim to hit a certain target that is on its own unique path then it is a shot. Aiming for the lower right drop target on the far right bank requires a different ball path then hitting the top target in the bank.

I agree. I was just stating for the 'new' type of counting.

I am curious to know where this official rulebook of how to count shots can be purchased. I just want to be sure that I never get accused of arbitrarily changing this rule. Is it available on Amazon?

Getaway has like 5 shots yet it's a whole shitload more fun than The Hobbit or WPT. Completely pointless "statistic."

You have been in the hobby long enough to know that shots have never been counted by individual switches. Designers and programmers have never referred to shots by individual switches.

If the designers count a drop bank as a single shot, there's no point in trying to change their definition.

Meh.

Peoples opinions are going to vary on which pins they are going to like. Not everybody is going to like one pin. I wasn't crazy about the hobbit at first, but recently I've warmed up to it and enjoy it. If anything, try and play it before you buy if you're considering..

WPT blew when it came out, it blows today, and, if trends continue, it will blow well into the future. The play is "well regarded" by like 5 people. Granted, one of them is a good friend of mine, but hey there's no accounting for taste.

I can definitely admit that th playfield looks less impressive in terms of toys and unique shots than say woz or a GB. I will say though that after watching the rules of the game, these timed modes of hitting so many varied shots is really quite fun and challenging. Yeah, a couple more toys to interact with would be cool, but with the unique rules and moving targets, it's just simply fun and different than bashing a slimer, or sparky, and hitting flashing lanes/ramps. It's just different. It's not better, or worse than other games. So now we have a unique set of rules, moving shots, deep story progression, and probably the best looking game ever, or close too it. What's to hate? It's not for everyone, and that's OK. It just gets old hearing guys bash it, And then hearing others defend it. It's just pinball. Enjoy each game for what it is.

Yes you dislike The Hobbit, we know. Sorry but a lot of us want a game that offers more (far more) then progressing through 5 gears, that are not really modes, and one main multiball. Getaway is a fun game but its nice having epic quest based games as well that offer a ton of a different things to do.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jpop-update-thread%E2%80%A6%E2%80%A6%E2%80%A6%E2%80%A6%E2%80%A6mg-raza-and-aiw%E2%80%A6/page/327

it's on the page. the discussion starts a few pages prior to this.
BUT ... in the defense of JJP, this is almost a year old and a lot has changed since, including change in leadership. But since it's been posted it on the internet, nothing is lost or forgotten.

With regard to how much stuff is on the Hobbit playfield: I've taken a good look at the underside, and I've never seen that much stuff on a pinball machine. Layer upon layer of wire harness tucked between mountains of mechanisms. I don't think you could squeeze another insert or target in there. It's no wonder the thing weighs 350 pounds. But on the topside? I'm not feeling 350 pounds of fun (insert lame joke here).

Now for the inevitable Stern comparison: I unboxed and set up a GB pro last night. Maybe the lightest modern pin I've handled. Playfield underside looks pretty frugal. Topside? Well, you've seen it. Bang for the buck.

Yes, you like The Hobbit, we know. Sorry but a lot of us want a game that offers more (far more) then just a whole bunch of pointless shots that aren't satisfying or modes that are all the same and not any fun to play. Hobbit is a fun game but it's nice having a simple quest that is much more satisfying, and does one or two things extremely well than a ton of different things to do in a very mediocre and undistinguished fashion.

Ok, so you think we should stop criticizing things about games we don't like, or defending things about games we do like. I guess Pinside should just be for arguing about prices or posting gaudy pictures of over-LEDd games? Cause that's about all we'd have left.

One comment I saw on page 1 struck me. Is TH really heavier than WOZ? I've had to see a physiotherapist since damaging my back moving WOZ.

This is like every WOZ thread for the past 3 years except now remove WOZ and inset TH. People can dislike the game, it's OK, you do not have to defend it just because you own it. I have several games that most people don't like, doesn't bother me a bit. People have there own tastes and a lot of people will like TH, some will dislike it just because it's JJP, and others just won't like the gameplay.

I've played TH at 4 different shows over the last 2 years. I want to like it but in it's current state it is not for me. The pop up are more annoying then fun and they constantly block the playfield shots. For the price tag it needs to be the best game ever made and it's got a long way to go to get there. If money didn't matter I might be more interested but the current price tag is a crazy amount to pay for a toy for me. You can do a lot of things with 9K.

The Hobbit doesn't have a ton of shots, or it does. That doesn't really matter. Iron Man has a sparse playfield and it's one of my favorite games of all time. The difference is the satisfaction you get from the shots. When I say that The Hobbit has a very pedestrian shot chart, I mean that it's not challenging at this point in time. Code can stretch your skills to hit things faster or in an exact sequence, but as it is now, the shots in The Hobbit are a very casual affair. This is why the OP is correct when he says that the game will need a strong code offering from Keith Johnson to decide the fate of the game. As it is now, The Hobbit is fun to play, but it's thin.

I really don't know why anybody cares what a game weighs or how tightly packed a playfield is on the underside. That has zero impact on how it feels to shoot for stuff in the flow of the game. These aren't boxers, they're pinball machines.

does anyone know what the upper flipper is for? seems like all shots can be made by the two lower.

I experienced the same, none of the pop-ups worked at the one on location I was playing. Seems strange that all would be broken, is there an option to turn them off? Why would they do that, no one there knew what the deal was.

The other thing about the pop-ups I noticed, is that the fit-and-finish was really rough, and would disturb the ball path. There was a Theater of Magic right next to it, and it's pop-up had a much cleaner fit when it was down. I found that difference in quality perplexing and disappointing.

Ah jesus now it's shot counts; never saw that coming.

I'm pretty sure the upper flipper was originally meant to be a Smaug shot (back when they were planning to have an interactive Smaug with a dedicated Smaug shot). But when they redesigned, they just left the flipper there. You can still make drop target shots with it, but it does feel out of place.

I want to know more about goat programming. How does one go about establishing a reputation as a good vs that guy who is merely an average goat programmer?

There's no reason for it. I'm not just being mean, an actual JJP employee (no, not Butch) told me that it's worthless, but it serves as a bullet point on the feature list. It's actually problematic to some degree, because it was causing the left ramp to break welds until the ramp was redesigned.

You don't have to use the flipper, but it's a safer way to hit the drops than using the lower flippers. It can take speed off the ball to make for easier traps and better control, I guess.

Having played Hobbit my early view is -

Beautiful.
A 2016 TSPP. Those who like long ball times, deep complex ruleset will enjoy.
Hindered by a poor playfield design.

Shot counts FTMFW!

One follow-up question to this statement: "If the designers count a drop bank as a single shot, there's no point in trying to change their definition"

Does not JJP's individually controllable drop targets change said "definition?" Old drop banks really aren't an individual shot either - each target in an individual bank has a unique trajectory - unless I'm mistaken and the whole new math movement changed what we've learned about geometry all those years ago. So, common sense would suggest original style drop target banks have unique shots for each individual target.

Now you have JJP's new drop target bank design with individually controllable drop targets - surely each target is an individual shot since they do not have any insurmountable link to any other target in the bank. They are totally under control of the programmer and can be activated/deactivated based on anything. And, just like old style drop target banks, each individual target in JJP's new banks has a unique trajectory.

How is that any different than a single drop target being lit? Drops or stand ups in a bank have been singled out for decades via programming.

There will likely be (or already is, don't have my game yet) one time shots from the player controlled kickback to the upper flipper that must then be used to hit a certain drop target.

You could hit the right ramp, ball gets diverted and stopped at kickback, player interacts with windlance power on LCD by pressing lockdown bar button at the correct time, upper flipper must then be used to hit a certain drop target to continue / beat mode.

All of that sounds like a slick use of the upper flipper and is very interactive when combined with the player controlled kickback and LCD.

"I think theres more to this upper flipper then meets the eye". Doesn't Gandalf say something like that in one of the films? lol

How many shots does Space Mission have? That swinging target has to count for like 20 on its own, right?

40, because it's a different trajectory if you're using the left flipper vs. the right flipper.

HOLY SHIT!

No wonder that game was so popular.

This is a detraction, not a selling point. WOZ is already a complete PITA to move.. making the game heavier just makes it worse :/ I like drop targets, but stop using 350lbs as a "selling point" .. it's a turn off for normal people.

Music actually isn't too bad.. main theme wore on me enough I actually like it now. Really like the poker corner wizard mode tune. WPT is a very good game. But not as good as AFM

I sounded like all the negative critics a few weeks back. Even to where I said I didn't want to take the risk of buying a TH because JJP could go out of business and make it impossible to get replacement parts if needed. I sold my WOZ because the theme didn't click w/ me, and in all honesty, because I was worried about the financial strength of JJP after TH's release.

I knocked the game because I read negative reviews here.

I was pessimistic because I read the game was "slow" "floaty "sparse playfield" etc

I've never seen a Hobbit movie, don't care to watch it, and I think a Smaug is probably the type of poop you take after a hard night of drinking.

My wife said to me when I showed her a YouTube video of it several months ago - she said who would want a Hobbit pinball machine with the goofy characters

My wife told me it would probably be lame and to not waste my money on the machine

Well. One month ago we were visiting Napa valley, then on our way back to SFO airport, we decided to stop at Free Gold Watch arcade in San Francisco. They had a Hobbit there. I had no intentions of playing it, because of the aforementioned pessimistic critiques - mostly formed by reading these same posts here on Pinside.

I said f-it, my wife and I put some quarters into it. Immediately, I was impressed by the sound and the quality of the machine vs my Stern machines. The game absolutely did not feel slow, or "floaty", or anything of the sort. I thought the troll pop ups with the cool lighting effects were great, and I loved hitting them. My wife surprised me and said "this game is really cool! The sound is awesome. I love the dragon head thing and the ramp shots and trolls". We continued to dump about $25+ on it, and we agreed it was a great game.

We wanted to play everything they had, so we moved on to Medieval Madness. Sadly, my wife had never played MM before. It was a well maintained example too. Immediately she said the machine felt old and "junky" compared to TH, and the trolls looked cheap. She played two games and moved on to Monster Bash. Then Adams Family. Then Twilight Zone. Then she went right back to The Hobbit because she loved how it played and looked compared to all the "old games". I felt the same way with MM after playing the Hobbit. I also played TAF, TZ, MM, GoT, KISS, BK2K, Who Dunnit, etc and I kept thinking about TH. So I played some more and realized just how much JJP stepped up and is offering such a fantastic built machine, a machine thats built for 2016.. no DMD.. no mono sound.. no standard body and regular Stern cookie cutter materials.. this is a legit, solid, high end, modern machine and I wanted it.

I have a GB LE on order, should be here in a few weeks. I ordered TH last week and it will be here Friday. I'll be honest, I am more exited to receive my TH at this point- because it will play completely different then my other Stern machines and is really a unique and special machine.

I could still give two shits about watching a Hobbit movie, or care about other opinions. Play the game yourself, and form your own opinion. Don't take any of these criticisms you read online seriously unless you play it yourself.

Do you really think this is new? Do you really think JJP just invented this?