I'm quoting the guy.....wtf.......he's great, awesome, whatever, to say its not about the money or "investment" is stupid and leaves YOU f*cking clueless.....along with your buddy Gerry...

I don't know what's wrong with you people....who the f*ck do you think you are, really, myself and many others who pay big money to buy new pins and fix old ones.....to say have "nothing" to do with this hobby is a JOKE....I will say and contribute whatever the hell I want to and the rest of you ignorant dips shits can go jerk each other off.....and who the f*ck are you?

McCune (Honda) does it as a hobby and not a business. If nobody sent a pin to him, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. He does for extra money, not as a full time business. What he charged me adds up to less than minimum wage for my AFM.

Hey don't get your panties in a bunch for me agreeing with you that your "clueless"

This is totally true about the check book opening. With out people opening their check book the hobby is dead. Belittling those who are pumping fresh money into the hobby and driving new players into the hobby seems self defeating.

That's the beauty of this country....people are free to make good deals and bad deals......and do whatever they want to....so what...you still had money to pay him, right?

Come on Smassa....you know I'm not "clueless"....and if you believe what he said in that post then its YOU who are totally "clueless"....sorry buddy...

These guys get paid big money to restore pins and the manufacturers get big money to sell NIB's and I don't want to hear any BS against the customer base that makes it all go...

Yeah, but ironically you who make more money than I do as a lawyer, yet act like I'm a rich elitist because I have a restored pin that I saved for. (Not me personally, but you made a general statement) (Good for you for making money as a lawyer, you went to school and earned it.)

You only like players' pins, but buy NIB. (I bet you have the LE) You refer to people who have pins restored as "stupid" or "rich", yet feel like you're attacked.

Alright, in other news, everyone go to the xmen thread asap! The games start shipping on Thursday per the update ten mins ago! Yay! I can go to sleep happy now instead of irritated due to this thread.

Whats it matter? He provides a service it appears many are very happy with. Who are you or me or anyone to question what Chris says his customers intentions are for sending in a pin for "HEP" treatment. With as many pins as i'm sure as Chris has done I very rarely see them pop up for sale. The guy you were quoting was trying to make it sound like many were just sending pins in to him to flip for a profit when its quite obvious that isnt the case.

I worked VERY hard to get my HUO TSPP. I saved up my paychecks for 6 months, and waited until a pin I wanted came up on the market. I probably earn less than most Pinsiders here so quit whining and be grateful that you have more money to buy pins than I do.

Exactly my point. You would also be upset if somebody posted that anybody that spends money on a HUO TSPP either has to be "rich" or "stupid" when you don't make very much money and saved up for it.

Dude, first of all, my wife was a teacher that just retired this year after 20 years because of our three kids and I totally respect what teachers go through and how hard they work.....

What about anything I've said is derogatory towards anybody about getting a pin restored by these guys....you yourself said when you did it you were sure the value would at least stay the same and didn't imagine the increase in the current market...I'm happy for you!

I even said that IF I had a pin restored I go to this guy earlier in the thread.....until now....

I only jumped in because he got defensive about what Pinballhelp said and.......blah, blah, blah....

And what I meant by my "stupid" comment is that if you weren't saving in your 403b or IUL or other retirement vehicle and were truly Obama food stamp "poor" and still paying 5k for pin restores then its ridiculous...............so no offense to you, as a teacher, I'm sure you are a good guy!

Exactly. Pinheads are average people just like us.

Congrats Tiger!....Hope you never have to have that one restored......

This is the quote from Chris.....If i remember you said you were "QUOTING HIM"

"You are wrong about the games that are restored (7/8)and the people they are typically done for(rich)The. Majority of people I deal with are not concerned about investment nor am I.Not sure why you think you would know more about my business than I do but you are wrong.
I provide a service it isn't about marketplaces or values."

Gee ? I dont see the word MONEY in there...I see "INVESTMENT"...

Of course Chris does this for the money, ya I'll quote you now.."DIPSHIT"...

Its his JOB !

The people that have Chris do their games, want a nice, or should i say PERFECT game..

Yep, alot of them will probably be and are BURIED in them, if INVESTMENT was their goal, but thats not why they are having Chris do their games...

They want it how they want it, better than new...so they can play it and enjoy it...have something nice...

and you dont have to be rich either.....SAVE YOUR ALLOWANCE !

Skilled trade..COST'S MONEY...LOTS OF IT.. Ice, do you even know waht paint materials cost today...i just spent 3k on paint for a 66 Fairlane....2 gallons of base coat, 1 gallon of reducer, 1 1/2 gallons of urethane clear w/ hardner, 2 gallons of reface, 1 gallon of self etching primer, and 1 1/2 gallons of urethane primer... 3K .....not alot for 3K..

Shit ....the tires on my bus were 3K and that was a deal !

There are a handfull of guys...IF THAT, that can do this kind of detailed restoration, on a pin, or should i say that are CRAZY enough to do it..it is wicked back breaking and intense work..

Chris should, and does, get ASS tons of money for doing it,...

But his total point was, he isnt doing this for guys so they can flip the game and make money...that meaning that INVESTMENT is not a factor with Chris...or the client...

What is a factor for him is that, he give a 110% machine back to his customer...

and his customers want that quality, and are smart enough to realize if they want it ...they have to pay for it....

they want a perfect machine...no matter if they sell it later on and lose or not...they dont care..
they want what they want... DO WHATEVER IT TAKES...I WANT IT MINT!

If by now you cant understand this from the "QUOTE" of Chris's i posted above...and realize what he is saying..

THEN YOU WILL NEVER GET IT!

OK.....its as simple as this....A to B.....I only "quoted" HEP for saying the "majority of pins I get has nothing to do with investment, values, etc..." and called BS on that...and him getting defensive on what Pinballhelp said.......period........

I don't care how much he makes or what he does, I'm happy for him and glad people can afford to write the checks to him for the restores and obviously he is one of the best at what he does....

People send in pins to him for INVESTMENT and VALUES! Or they don't pay the $$$$, a very few only send in for sentimental reasons ONLY.....so is it clear enough now?............it has nothing to do with rich or poor, however that is defined....get it?......

I get that, but it is hard to read intent when you don't give any specifics and make blanket statements. You're quote was in generalizations that are not necessarily true. Some points you should know:

I paid Jim and Chris installments for my pins. Some of their customers are rich, but many are not. Jim has done many fixes, touch ups for free. Many things he did for me, Jim did not get paid. He drove 12 hours to deliver my pins, threw out his back, and all I paid for was his gas.

Being a beer and pizza guy, my garage is my "museum". I wish people would stop acting like people with nice pins don't play them. That is bullshit. I have more plays on my MM than people do on their routed machines. BTW, when Chris got my MM, the Merlin area looked like a beaver chewed it up. So the machine was not an 8 or 10. Jim restored my Bar Use Only pin that was a 4 condition wise.

People can assume that anybody that owns a pinball machine must be rich because it is a luxury item. Kwikimart proves if you want something bad enough, you can get it.

I was trying to show you that many of your generalizations were not 100% true. Kind of like the Pinheads are nerds perception.

Not true again. Most people will never see a return on their investment. They have a nice pin, but 80% of the pins he does people are upside down on the value. The Hercules cost over 2000 alone for shipping. The Rocky and Bullwinkle? Even the great Medieval Madness.

What is the lowest priced crappy Medieval Madness go for? 11 grand? 90% of HEP that are for sale within a year don't get a return of investment. I can give specific examples.

See my latest post above.....

That SHOULD settle this with ICEMAN if anything will...

JimJim, first of all, I'm a beer and pizza guy!....Again, I'm not saying there aren't young and old, rich and not so rich people doing all kinds of things in the pin world, its all good, especially if you love it......what I'm simply saying is the quote from HEP that "most of his customers don't care about investment or value"...is BS, regardless of what they might say, why send it to him in the first place.....and I don't care, there are a ton of guys that do a great job on restoring pins and if that's what makes you happy I know it means more to you than the guy with 40 pins and millions...

This is my point.....For what purpose would he lie about this? Ahhh yes it must be to try n drum up more business since he has nothing to do by the looks of his empty garage & restoration facility.

I guess you know more then the guy actually doing the work and the people paying him correct???

Do you honestly the believe majority of his customers spend a lot of money on a game, then a lot more for his work to be done on it only to flip it as soon as they get it back??? If so where are all these games being sold at? Ive only seen a few pop up from time to time & if you look at his website you'll see how many he has done over the years. And those are just the one's he's took the time to photo document.

Dude Ice just drop it the more you argue your point the more foolish you make yourself look.

Iceman,

I'll get off the rich/poor statements.

Maybe I'm not seeing your point clearly. I really know people that have sold HEP pins within the first year of a restore and have lost money. A restored pin is really like a new car as they depreciate as soon as they leave the restorer.

Nobody flips a new car as they can get it for the same price minus the 1000 miles you put on it. Does that make my point clearer about "flipping" restored pins.

My 3 year old HEP will not be the same value as a new HEP, but it should be more valued than a routed one.

Its about the INVESTMENT and the VALUE for the majority of people that send in pins to him.........if you believe otherwise you are totally NAIVE!.....And if you are doing it for other reasons then you are in the minority, that simple, get it?.............

And what about the current pin flation market and FS threads would make anyone believe that?

It couldnt be that someone has always wanted a certain game and wanted it to be in the best shape possible? Usually an investment means something you bought for a certain price with the intention of selling for a higher value then what you paid.

Clearly this isnt what the vast majority of his customers are planning when sending a pin to HEP.

Defintion of Inventment for you Ice from Wiki:

"Finance investment is putting money into something with the expectation of gain, that upon thorough analysis, has a high degree of security for the principal amount, as well as security of return, within an expected period of time."

Yes this is what im sure most people are thinking when sending a MM in to HEP.....

A minority of people view this as the priority, the majority do it to increase the value first and then want the best condition second......

Even with that into account, I really don't think you know how much these restores cost.

That's exactly why they send pins into HEP, good point, the expectation of financial and enjoyment gain with a high degree of security for the principal amount......the majority don't send in pins to lose money......

And how would you know this as fact? Or is this another ASSumption???

It couldnt possibly be that they want the finest quality game possible to play for their long term collection right???

Its different for each guy....each guy has different talents, tools, overhead, COGS, etc.....and each values their time differently and charges accordingly.....

No, but they do. It is like a new car- very few new cars appreciate. Investments is probably the last reason why a person buys a new car. They want a new car because of reliability, looks, whatever.

Sure, for some, but always retaining the hope to sell it for as much or more than what they paid for it...ask Doc, how many threads do you see stating I won't sell it for less because I have X into it...

It's not like a car!.....people buy NIB's today will the 100% expectation that they will MAKE money on that pin...its like a lottery ticket....same with a lot of restores....and that's OK..

How many HEP's have you seen for sale in the past year since prices have been going crazy. I can only remember 1 or 2 true HEP's being put on the market if that. With what it costs people to get a pin restored through Chris & what they most likely have into the game before hand selling such title would in most instances be a losing venture. I'll believe Chris at his word that the vast majority sending pins in to him are doing it because they want the nicest example possible for themselves for their own pure enjoyment.

I'm assuming he knows more about his customers then you do.

Are you serious? Is that why you buy a NIB pin? What about buying it cause you want to enjoy playing it. Thats really the reason you buy a NIB pin cause its a "lottery ticket"???

Wow I guess its pointless to continue this debate with you.

Most don't have employees, or commercial residents. That's why most post pictures in front of garages. I'm only talking about the restorers that are known commodities.

Alex Levi posted a known restorer quoted him 19,500 for a MM. That was probably their base price...without mods, chrome etc..., shipping.

That is not a "flip" price, that is a I want a nice pin price.

How would he assume to know or care?.....And with all those pins sitting in the warehouse I'm sure he isn't doing a detailed interview with folks on their intentions with the pin.....

And what would you tell the guy...hey HEP, fix this pin up as fast as you can so I can flip it for the most money I can get out of it?........so no, I don't believe it....

Oh come on now Jim....You know most are looking to buy that one n flip it for $22k....

Are you kidding me.......that's not why I buy a NIB pin....I own two and have two on the way.....uhhhh maybe you aren't paying attention to the recent NIB market and threads on here?

So where are all these HEP's for sale then???

Hey I just quoted what you said.....Why would I be kidding you?

If you're talking about the major restorers - NO WAY

Get a quote- you will have a great pin, but you will be lucky, even with pin inflation, to get a return on your money.

You really need to get quotes from these guys.

I don't believe that is true......and if its a TC or "HEP" restore it would probably sell for more because of the detail and work that went into it and a profit would actually be realized over the last year....no doubt...

When they come up for sale they go so fast at such high prices because of the huge demand and thus huge profits!.....

I thought they did the work for less than minimum wage?.........

Ok, I'm done, enjoyed the discussion.......I hope you enjoy your pins JimJim however they are built!....Have fun on summer break...

And if anyone reads through this crap then you are as dumb as I am.....

so to recap ......

The all knowing Oz....errr Iceman has spoken. Yes HEP is just a flippers halfway house.

Sorry, it was a back and forth thread that would bore 99.9999999% of the world's population.

If you like the unnecessary... and incorrect use of....... ellipses,,,,...... then you're going to ...... love this thread ........... It was a real battle between gerry and iceman for a while.