Maybe keep the licensing option separate from all original art versions. Best of both worlds. I think it would be better to see the rules, etc incorporated. And the shooter visible. It looks a bit off otherwise, just my opinion.

Absolutely! CFTBL too!

Hammer of the Godz?

Very nice! Those look great!

My Baywatch and Maverick are metal and TFTC is plastic. Still, for a cool looking TFTC apron, just make it and I'll figure out a way to make it stick in place.

Staying out of the politics of copyright and competition I think these look fabulous. That's coming from the person making reproduction aprons. I'm all for these, especially considering how well they fit the artwork and theme of the game. You've got a great artist and I look forward to seeing what you come out with.

What about the idea of doing magnets for the backbox hinge.
For instance , and I was just thinking of this the other day, on the addams family you could make a magnet that continues the lightning bolt up that hinge.

If the art is "too similar" to the original copyrighted art, it can be considered a derivative. Imagine if someone simply re-drew a translite by hand. It would be different, of course, because it was hand drawn... but the art itself is the same as the translite (composition, colors, etc) and thus would infringe.

Modders walk a fine line between creating something derivative, and something that's too different that it doesn't go with the game well. If something is different enough, PPS can't touch it. Might take a judge to decide how enough is enough though. The BOP apron clearly repeats art on the playfield, and would probably fail. The Shadow one looks different enough that I'd think it'd be fine. FT is pretty close to infringing IMHO, but I'm not a judge...

You mispelled PPS there...

Thanks, was trying to avoid another PM from Rick.....

It's not at all an IP violation. But some copyright holders like to use their "property" to try and get money every chance they can. Because the US copyright system is so backwards, it's basically "pay me a license and stay in business or pay a lawyer until you're broke and out of business."

I can sympathize with the people who actually create the works, but have little sympathy for those who purchase IP as a means to bully other content creators.

I think I'd like to see Rick try and sue someone. So far it's all been lawyer's letters.

We're talking about maybe a couple of hundred bucks worth of product that people are making and selling - no one's getting rich. So for Rick to spend thousands of dollars to actually sue someone seems like a waste of money.

just played my tommy tonight, that game has metal apron, but it's powder coated. might effect how the magnet fits. It's different than other De games because of the blinders. Never really realized it.

OK..so here's the deal..and out of RESPECT to the OP Bill and to others here. This will be my last reply to this thread. I'm bailing on it.
I obviously made a mistake by even saying anything earlier which some of you choose to flame me and PinUpgurl. And that's fine.

Even though pinUpGurl was the person who came up with he Idea originally.
We all make mistakes, In hindsight I guess I should't have mentioned anything at all. So for that I do apologize .
Forgive me I'm only human.

A lot of you know me either on here or in person and everyone in this industry will tell you that I am a straight shooter and a good genuine person. I'm not out to screw anyone nor am I trying to dominate the market. I actually asked Bill to call me because I actually need help making more designs. That was my intent. However it appears that it was taken the wrong way.

There is nothing wrong with someone else making the same things..I mean Stern does this all the time. The thing is..there is an unwritten rule here..it kind of goes like this.. Don't make something someone else is already making.
It's pretty simple.

Shoot... I could have made lots of alternate translights, for crying out loud ..I can make anything I want..I have the rights too.. I PAY FOR THEM... ..but I didn't you know why? because that's Aurich's thing... I am not going to do that..out of RESPECT

I could make ton of coin box decals..I don't ..because that's BEATMASTERs thing..I am not going to do that..out of RESPECT

And BTW..it goes both ways

I can go on and on..

Now I don't know..perhaps Bill didn't know this

Fact is, like I stated earlier..I had presented these in a seminar and It's filed on Pinball news website. October 2015 Chicago Expo
http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/expo2015/index.html

Frankly the point is moot now.

UNFORTUNATLEY..there are some folks who just don't give a shit either way.

At the end of the day..I always try to do things the honest way..because once again..that's How I do...and I pay for it.

Question: Is it fair to me or anyone else who pays for the use of copyrighted artwork versus some guy who sells these under the table?
( Im not singling out Bill here just speaking in general)
The Answer is No

fantasygoat - I bought one of your prints at Chicago..How would you feel if I took you print that you drew, and repurpose it and try to sell it?
How would you feel? Is that cool to do?

The Answer once again is NO

I really don't get all this smack talk towards Rick either.. he is tons better then the last guy who owned them. You guys should be thankful he is willing to work with folks like me and Bill. He can do all this stuff himself. He doesn't need any of us. He has full print shop and all kind of manufacturing at his plant.

But, it doesn't matter because everyone feels they are "entitled" to the right simply because... well time to wake up and smell the coffee..hate to break it to you. And it doesn't matter if its Rick..or John or Tom or Dick or Harry..whomever owns the rights..you're just gonna hate. Haters are always going to hate.

I'm honestly Glad to see that Bill is working with Rick. I love the designs and I think you guys need to go back on topic and concert on Bill's great designs which I honestly think are fantastic . And that's why..I reached out in the first place..whether you believe me or not.. I really don't give a hoot.

I wish Bill good luck and look forward to seeing what else he comes up with.

So with that..my rant is over..I promise you, won't be hearing from me again on this particular thread any longer .

Thanks for listening.

RAPTOR
OUT

I'd rather see you make alternate translights and coin box decals than have Bill stop making apron magnets.

But that's just me.

Were you the first one to make apron wrap graphics? You very well may have been, but I thought I remembered seeing another company making them long before I heard of Pingraffix.

Why wld anyone wanna decorate the coin box with decals? Do you all mean coin door decals or am I missing something?

Magnets on the coin door

Just to get it on the record, the concept of magnetic art covering the apron is old.
In this instance I don't see anything ethically wrong with multiple people making competing products, especially since nobody seems to be able to persuasively argue it was their idea.

Here is one example:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lotr-alternate-apron-decals

thanks for the kind words joe, i think exactly the same way, a lot of things i could do also but i won't, out of respect and to me, it's worth a lot more. all i can say is, let's all try to work together.

coin door decals.

+1 on T2
If it looks good I would LOVE to buy one

@joeraptor2003 I don't get you. So if you invented the tire for wheels, no one are allowed to design/create better tires? (Better grib etc.).
My point is:

I think there is a big difference between copying the art and doing new art. He is not printing YOUR art but has an artist who does new art. Maybe same "building blocks/tools" but not just copying you.

Of course he should not be doing illegal stuff, but he is doing something about that.

So I think you should RESPECT (word you like) competition just like every tire company out there. Just make yours better and the market will choose your product.

Just SOMEONE get these to market and available for me to purchase for the games I own. I don't give a shit about anything else other than, "can I buy it now?"

Link to these? I'd like to see.

Sometimes I like competition for various reasons.

How can it be an original idea if someone else made the same product first?

I see no problems with competition but to advertise this as an original idea is disingenuous. I assume you didn't read the article posted on Pinball News posted earlier?

I've been on PS for over 3 years now and have not seen full size apron MAGNET decals yet, I've seen parts of apron magnets but never full size ones like NinJa would be be making so I think it's a good idea and from what I know he's the first to do this mod. If I'm wrong would someone please correct me. Pingraffix has made 2 or 3 different WRAPS for aprons but they haven't come out with any new designs in over a year I believe but I don't need a new metal apron that their designs come on, that's why I really dig the magnet design AND because they are 1/3 the cost of the new apron ones. Just my 2 cent on the subject.

I appreciate it, honestly, and I totally get where you're coming from. I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to do something someone else was doing either. But it's not like I invented the idea of alternate translites, I certainly don't mind if someone else wants to make some.

Just for the record. You're a good guy and your heart is in the right place on this.

i didn't do any for a while but i get what he's saying.

Let's see, Dunlop didn't actually invent the pneumatic tire, but he got it to market. So, since he was first, no one else should have created their version of a tire that uses air? Competition improves the product and the market. No one should be given exclusive rights to a T-lite, pop bumper cap, mirror blade, apron skin, led lite, etc. just because they were "first". Not much is truly "new", the idea has been borrowed, tweaked, re-shaped or otherwise modified. If you can create a better pinball do-dad, bring it on! If it has value it will sell--if not it won't.

While that's a nice gesture between vendors, it's also anticompetitive. What if the new guy's stuff is better than the old guy's? We customers want the best, not the first, and being first doesn't necessarily make someone the best. There's a reason collusion is illegal, although in this case (small time mods) it's not a big deal...

You are right. However, if a competitor is selling prints with original artwork, that is both fair and legal.

It's easier and cheaper for Rick to have you guys pay for the privilege of making them. Sublicensing is easy money. All profit, minimal work, no inventory. That is one of the main reasons why he bought the IP in the first place.

None of these designs are using existing artwork. Also, Rick has done more to *shut down* progress on reproduction parts than he has on getting them out there - ask the people who want Bally / Williams EM parts.

If you want a direct comparison, if someone else wants to make Pinball Art Prints, I wouldn't be upset because I don't own the concept. That's all that is happening here - someone else is doing arch magnets, not copying your exact artwork.

Joe is one of the best guys I have met in this pinball hobby he is a straight shooter with a heart of gold.. He always trys not to step on others toes, sometimes which may hurt the business... At the end of the day all you have is your reputation. I think what gets lost in translation, is that you guys are not creating competing iphone cases where there is alot of room for competition, this is a small niche hobby (albeit getting bigger thankfully in the past few years) and its honorable that Joe doesn't step on others toes.

I'm so tired of hearing "we should be glad Rick is better than the last guy" or "Rick has done alot of good things for the pinball community".

Bullshit.

Rick has done whatever has benefited Rick. End of story. Rick has done more to stifle creation than to encourage it. He effectively is monopolizing part of the market and he is doing what always happens when monopolies occur...increase price, decrease quality and service. It's economics 101 and the examples are innumerable and taught in every basic business course.

This thread and this product is a fine example of the pettiness and self-interest that pervades this (and many other) hobbies. The OP turns out a product that is innovative (no one is currently producing a full-cover magnet for aprons) and clearly has found a niche. What happens? Out come people who want to either say "you're encroaching on my territory" or "I had this idea first". And, of course, then we get the narc squad that starts bringing up IP and legal action. It's ridiculous.

Let the freakin' guy show his wares and the market determine if there is continued interest. If this became a legal issue, I would hope any reasonable party would say these are original concept and not a ripoff of protected property. I have a hard time with the whole IP issue because if you put two machines side by side, one with the magnet and one with the original apron, it's clear that it is different and not substantively copying existing artwork.

Stepping off soapbox....

Not bad, but I would have to see it on a machine to decide.

Request TZ, IJ & TAF !!!

Man the possibilities are endless, all the old B/W games from the early 80's could really benefit from this idea, Centaur and Pharoah would be so great, I would love one for my JD, keep it cool like the Shadow, that art is kinda japanimation style and I love it.

These look awesome. Would love to see one for T2.

many people make similar items, but what's nice is that with multiple people making different versions of things, you can buy the style that you like. Remember those graphic lamp shades? 3 different people were making them, each with different graphics. You buy the graphics you like best.

Alternate translites have been around for years. just because ones making them, doesn't mean others can't. I own alts from at least 6 different people. They are all great in their own ways. Auriches have the best color saturation and most practical use.

Same would go for this. both have different art designs. People can buy from both of you. whoever comes up with the best art will win that game. It's good to have options. I might like something, and 20 other people will buy the other one. Everyones happy.

I know it wouldn't be a magnet stuck to anything but data east has a clear cut groove that a design could sit in. A turtles design would be awesome even if it was just a sewer idea or a look underground with the technodrome and the bad guys. I hope someone could do this I would easy be in it for $200 as a custom design

Nice job Bill, nice and bright.

Scared stiff and gnr would look awesome..

It just accured to me. The US patent office has nothing on design or concept for pinball magnet aprons.
There is also no trademarks for the the name "Magnet Apron" or such.
I encourage Bill to move forward, just don't copy any of the excisting art for any game, make it original, you can however copy colors and fonts.
I also encourage Rick and Joe to make magnet aprons. Competition is what it's about. Free Trade! I look forward to seeing Rick's designs for these aprons soon, he does have all the licensing, should be easy. Would also like to see Joe's designs and coin door magnets!
I look forward to buying ALL 3! I will change them often and support all of those that move pinball forward, not drag it down.