Hi everyone,

I have repaired many SS pins right down to board components, but I do not have any experience on an EM. I have an electrical technician background, but it is only used on pinball machines.

I need some help. I bought a train wreck of an EM and I am troubleshooting it, but not having done this before it would be nice to hear some second opinions and some general "Yes, you are doing it right" or "No, you are doing that wrong" from others with more knowledge than me.

I am using pinrepair, and I have the schematic from PBR.

When I plug in the pin the backbox lights up and so do the coin door lights. That is pretty much it. The primary fuse holder was a corroded mess, as was the fuse so I replaced both. The line cord was also a mess so I have replaced it, but the readings are still off. According to the schematics I should be seeing 25V for the coils and 6V for the lamps. I'm only seeing 4V at the 10A fuse holders (LIGHTS) and 14V at the 15A fuse holder (coils). So I went back to the transformer and I am not seeing 25V from any tab on the transformer. Here are my readings. I am using my black lead on the ground lug.

ab0632958c1fc5cd16c295d61bf6d11f85147d6e (resized).jpg

I'm also getting 4V from another lug (LIGHTS) on the opposite side of the transformer (not shown in the picture).

As you can see the transformer is a mess but I've seen worse. Is there anything else I should be checking? A switch that deactivates high power?

Thank you. I am not use to working with AC as is probably very obvious.

Measuring from the common lug to START I am reading 30V. From common to HIGH I am reading 32V. I am also reading 6.5V to the backside of the transformer now that I am using the proper return. Everything on the transformer checks out. Thank you.

Moving onwards, when I power up the machine, I get backbox lights and coin door lights. What should be the next sequence of events?

Start button doesn't do anything. It is wired. I'll verify the wiring with the schematic.

I see the coin chute switches. When I activate either switch nothing happens. There are 15 credits already on the counter. I don't know how long they have been there.

I am going to check the tilt/drop/slam switches as well. I am guessing they should be normally open, but I'll verify with the schematic.

The credit unit is the cleanest bit of the pin. It is not binding and counts up/down without any issues. There is a lead through the zero position. Here is what it looks like with 0 credits;

20181111_200941 (resized).jpg

After I add a credit it looks like this. The switches are still all closed.

20181111_200958 (resized).jpg

I am not sure how to start a the score motor by hand.

I left the credit counter at 2. Powered up the pin. Tried hitting start again for the hell of it (nothing happened). I rotated the score motor counter-clockwise by hand. It did not start rotating on it's own. I will check to see that it is getting voltage. How easily should it rotate?

[EDIT] I found the pinwiki with examples of how the credit unit is supposed to look with zero, greater than zero, and max credits. I'll make sure to adjust the switches to match.

[EDIT2] Does the playfield need to be installed? It would be easier to troubleshoot this with it out of the way. I don't see why it would be needed right now.

I'm at work right now (Eastern Standard Time) but I'll verify the 25V is getting through the fuse to the motor.

pinhead52 Okay, so I'm happy to report a little progress. I managed to get the score motor to rotate. I took out my DMM and checked the connectivity of the bounce switch and the anti-cheat switch. I had no connectivity through the bounce switch even though I could see it was closed. I took some 1000 grit sandpaper I had and ran it over the contact points a few times. I did the same to the anti-cheat. I powered up the pin an was able to move the score motor. The score reels are all at zero now. There is a pretty loud buzz coming from inside the cabinet. It seems to be emanating from a relay marked V.

Pressing the START button still doesn't do anything. I also tried added a few credits and this did not work either.

The relay is labelled V but I don't think it is from this machine. It is in position Q.

20181112_214738 (resized).jpg

There is also a relay labelled W in position U.

When I turn the game on, relay Q and U lock on right away. These are the GAME OVER and 1st BALL relays.

This game is a pretty big mess as you can see by the wiring. Two of the relays have even been replaced with modern electromechanical relays.

I will definitely be cleaning up the steppers as I can already see some are sticking but I want to make sure the pin is able to go through its normal start-up sequence before I do any of this. I'll will avoid using anything flammable.

I'm trying to avoid creating new problems for myself until I'm more familiar with the start-up sequence. Right now, I can't even start a game.

Odd, you'd think it would be reverse so that the 1st ball relay was energized only when the ball was in the shooter lane. Saves punishing the relay the entire time the pin is on.

Game over looks a little crispy. Upon closer inspection the label is definitely burned. I'm more concerned that these relays are not the correct ones. How do I know this relay will even work? Has the proper number of switches?

I am having difficulties reading the schematics. Some areas are easy to read, and other areas confuse me. For example, the Game Over relay (Q) I can see it on the schematics, but it's not clear to me which switches on the relay should be open or closed. I figured the switches would be grouped on the schematic for ease of use but they are spread out.

I'll just have to get use to the way everything is laid out.

Looks like I need a A-9740 and a A-9736 then. I'll see if I can get one locally. If not, I'll put in a PBR order.

Thanks guys. I'm going through this website constantly. I'm also part of pinballninja so I've been watch a slew of new videos on EM repairs.

Slow and steady...

There is some obvious crud on the player unit that I am going to clean off but I am going to take my time with it. In the meantime, this thread will go quiet, and I'll place an order for those new coils from PBR.

Hang tight everyone and thanks for the help so far!

pinhead52 I cleaned the player stepper unit and it is rotating properly now. I think someone used 3 in 1 oil and it created a gummed up mess in some areas. I've cleaned everything with degreaser and then isopropyl alcohol and bought some clear synthetic silicone grease to re-lube things a bit.

I managed to borrow two coils for game over and the 1st ball, but I'm do not think my coils are bad. When I turn the game on I can see the coils are energizing. That tells me they are fine.

With credits on the machine, pressing start still does nothing. I am able to manually move the score motor and it completes the rotation on it's own.

I am not sure where to go from here. Do I first work on the credit switches and try to figure out why they are not adding credits to the machine or do I ignore this and continue to manually add the credits and try to figure out why the game won't start?

HowardR I just want to make sure I am understanding the terminology being used here. Being new to EM's I am not clear on some of the lingo. When you say REPLAY BUTTON are you just talking about the START BUTTON? I just want to be sure we are talking about the same thing here.

I will try the jumper wires. I had not gotten to section 3 of pinrepair yet. I'm only at section 2j. I'll read ahead a bit.

HowardR Mopar pinhead52 Okay guys, I had a little time tonight.

If I manually activate the Start Relay (S), the machine does not do anything.

I have not tried using alligator clip wires yet as I can't seem to find mine. I blame myself for leaving out my electronic toolbox with my kids in the room.

I have bigger problems it seems. I mentioned this pin was a mess right?

Here are my Replay Button relay (V) and Tilt Hold relay (H). I have no way of testing these new electromechanical relays, nor do I hear them energizing or de-energizing.

20181120_200929 (resized).jpg

Add to that...

A previous owner took the original V and H relays in this pin and relocated them to Q and U. The original Q and U are nowhere to be found.
20181120_200949 (resized).jpg

Ignoring the new electromechanical V and H relays for the time-being, are the original V and H relays compatible to Q and U? I need to confirm that V and H have the proper switch stacks, number of switches, and whether the switches are open, closed, or make-break. I need to confirm the coil strengths as well. This is going to be a pain in the ass.

I will need help confirming things. I'm getting better at reading these schematics, but I'll need affirmation from anyone willing.

Is it possible to buy original relays from PBR with the proper switch stacks pre-installed? I would like to remove the new electromechanical relays and revert everything back to the way it was from the factory.

Ah, I didn't see the 'contacts' area. So for Q (AG-9740), there are 3 contacts. 2A, 2B, 1C. I don't see any legend stating A=open, B=closed? Is it on the schematic somewhere or is this just a standard that I was not aware of?

So just for my own reference...

Q is 3 contacts. Open, Closed, Make-Break
U is 3 contacts. Open, Closed, Make-Break
V is 1 contact. Open
H is 3 contacts. Open, Closed, Make-Break

So I could swap U and H and get that relay back where is belongs. My V does have 5 wires connected to it. Hmm... The schematic shows it should only be 1 contact. Why are 5 wires connected to it?

Thank you for this. The schematic has been driving me nuts. It confuses the hell out of me. Shit is spread out everywhere. For example, I just want to trace the wires coming off the Q coil. I should have black on one side of the coil providing 25V and BL+BLK on the other side, but I don't. I have two black on one side of the coil and a short solid blue wire that goes to one of the switches in the stack on Q. The short blue wire isn't on the schematics that I can see. Only then do I have the BL+BLK wire that heads over to the score motor 4C. To me, they missed a switch.

Reading this now http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#schematic

I had not read ahead this far, but it seems I should as I am missing key items in the schematics.

Thank you.

I appreciate all the help guys.

Q, U, V and H. Photos of these would be great. Thanks!

The first photo is perfect. I can make out the colours no problem. The rest are in yellow lighting so it's tough to make out the colours. I can see the switches though so that's a start! Thank you!

Yes, I have the manual. My plan was to remove the foreign relays and replace them with the original relays. I am asking for photos so that I can order the proper pieces from PBR for the missing relays. I am in Canada so I don't want to miss anything and have to place multiple orders.

In the meantime, I'm using the photos and schematic to verify my 'new' Q and U relays are wired correctly now that they are using the relays from V and H.

I definitely think I need to go back to the start routine, but after I have some of the missing components repopulated in the pin.

The previous owner told me that he was able to start a game but then it stopped working. Who knows if that is true though. I knew it was a mess and a project when I bought it but it was affordable, and I enjoy a challenge. The timing was good, I had some spare $, and I knew I could get it working. This relay swap was outside of what I thought might be wrong with the pin but it's not something I'm intimidated by.

I will definitely do this. I appreciate all the help. I am going to compare your Q to mine first tomorrow. The photos you took are perfect for this. I will post the comparison tomorrow.

Wow! Awesome! Thank you for doing these comparisons. Doing this was my plan for the weekend. Make the comparisons, swap the relays back if it makes sense to do so, otherwise just update the stickers on the relays. I will eventually remove the newer relays, and put together a parts list. I just need to dedicate some time to it.

Looks like the newer type relays sell for about $20 a piece. So $40 to try and fix it. I'm guessing this would have been cheaper to replace than the entire relay with the old style. Or maybe the previous owner sold relays for a living, or just found them in his attic. There are no markings on them that I can see, so I can't look them up on a spec sheet. I'm able to see the physical switches inside them but I've never seen them move.

wayner What are you referring to when you say "relay banks"?
How do I unlatch the interlock relays and where are they?
Yes, I'm new to this. Sorry!

I'll work on this a bit tomorrow guys and post an update. I really appreciate all the help and comments on this.

Thanks Theo. Hold up a minute though. I may not have to replace all 4. I may have a bunch of parts to play with already too. Baby steps!

Here is my Q coil. Yes, it look like crap but it is working. Looks aren't everything!
20181124_111327 (resized).jpg

So, working from left to right on one side only here is what I am seeing;

Switches.
There are 3 of them. NO, NC, NC

Wiring. Starting at the coil.
Blue. Black x2

NO = 5 wires. Blue. Blue+Black. Blue+White (maybe yellow).
NC = 4 wires. Orange-Black. Brown-Black.
NC = 4 wires. Red+Yellow x2. Red-Yellow x2.

- means there is only a spec of the second colour
+ means the wire shares each colour equally

If I compare this to the photo from Mopar I think it is correct. It is difficult to see some of the wire colours because of the lighting and angle of the photos.

If I flip the coil over and do the other side now.
20181124_111238 (resized).jpg

Again from left to right.

Switches.
There are 2 of them. MB (NC/NO), NO.

Wiring.
MB = 3 wires. Yellow-Slate. Yellow-Black.
NO = 2 wires. Black-Yellow. Brown+Black. Black+Yellow.

Pinbee and I talked about this before, but I can confirm my Q relay has the proper number of switches. 5, and they are adjusted properly. This relay, despite it being labelled V has the proper parts.

Also, I believe I have the correct wiring to each of the switches on my Q relay. A few of the colours are faded, burned or dirty but they appear to be in the proper positions. Mopar seems to have one wire that is blue-yellow-pink that I can't find but I believe this is my blue-yellow wire from the first image and that the pink has just faded from existence.

Now that I have confirmed Q is correct I think it is safe to assume U is also correct. Actually, screw it... I've come this far, so I'll verify my U has the proper switches/wiring.

Back in a bit...

Okay. My U coil. Starting with the coil side.

Coil. Black x2. Navy.
NO = Navy. Slate-White x2. Green-Yellow x2.
NO = Orange-Yellow x2. Brown-Yellow x2.
NC = Yellow-Blue x2. Black-Slate

Bracket side.
MB (NC/NO) = White-Brown. Orange-Red x 2.
NO = Brown-Yellow. White-Blue x2
NO = Brown. Yellow x2.

My U coil has 4 NO, 1 NC, and 1 MB. 6 switches total. Again, this verifies what Pinbee and I spoke about earlier in this thread and matches up with the Gottlieb schematic.

Using Mopar photos, it is difficult to make out some of the wiring on U, but what I am able to see does match up to my coil wiring.

At this point, I have to assume that Q and U failed at some point so someone used V and H as shells to replace them. They moved them over, added switches, and re-soldered everything. They have the correct switch stacks and seem to be wired properly.

They then used the new encased relays on V and H. I am guessing V and H were chosen as giunea pigs because they were the simplest relays in the game to move over.

What is the difference between a A-9740 coil and a 9738? My thinking.... Q and V use the same coil. U and H do not. If a one for one swap was done for U with H then I have to assume the coil for my U is incorrect. I cannot tell because it is missing the coil wrap. It should be using a A-9740 but it would be using a A-9738.

I am going to have to order relay parts to get V and H back to factory. I'll order a few extra coils as well.

Next step is to compile a list of parts to get V and H back to normal.

Here is the part list for V.

qty 1 - GTB-9740, coil
qty 1 - C-4989, housing/relay frame
qty 1 - A-9519, relay clip*
qty 1 - A-5081, spring
qty 1 - GTB-A5369, 4 slot armature E/M
qty 2 - GTB-B5364, Switch, Make with Small Points
qty 4 - screws??? (see below)
qty ? - bakelite spacers (see below)

*Not sure if the screw that holds the relay clip in place is included with the relay clip or if it comes with the coil.

The only thing missing is the spacers and the screws for the switch stacks. I am not sure what is needed here. PBR shows these screws but the measurements seem off;

Screen Shot 2018-11-24 at 1.42.58 PM (resized).png

Here are the spacers. Is there any sort of standard for how many are required and how thick?

Screen Shot 2018-11-24 at 1.43.08 PM (resized).png

You guys are awesome!

Pinbee I am super jealous at the cleanliness of your relays and cabinet. I will gladly accept your donor switch. I'll PM you shortly. With regards to reversing the middle switch so that it is normally closed, is it possible to reverse them? I was under the assumption that to make it normally closed I would have to remove a section of bakelite. I thought that some of the bakelite was fused/riveted/glued together and couldn't be separated?

Here is normally open with two pieces of bakelite separating the contacts;
Screen Shot 2018-11-24 at 4.45.59 PM (resized).png

Here is normally closed with only one piece of bakelite separating the contacts;
Screen Shot 2018-11-24 at 4.46.13 PM (resized).png

Mopar let me know what you have and then I'll work something out between you and Pinbee.

wayner since I am going to have to wait on parts I re-read your post and wanted to try this. The new enclosed relays in my game I want to assume work, so I'm going to go ahead and try what you said.

I have the score reels set to zero.
I manually reset the drop targets.
I manually reset the bonus unit
I checked under the playfield for any binding units or stuck switches.
I have 1 credit on the credit unit
I wanted to leave the playfield up in service mode, so I took a piece of cardboard and inserted it into the ballhole switch so it made contact.

When I powered on the machine Q and U locked on and U started buzzing LOUDLY.
I pressed the start button.
Nothing.

Q and U remained energized. U continued to buzz loudly.

I decided to start manually activating relays.

I used a pen and manually activated the START RELAY. The SCORE MOTOR started to spin and then came to rest. Q and U de-energized. The buzzing stopped.

I removed the piece of cardboard and manually activated the outhole switch to simulate a ball ejecting into the shooter lane. This didn't do anything.
I tried pressing a few of the playfield switches anyway just to see if I was awarded any points but nothing happened. I assumed as much as I still had 1 credit showing on the credit unit.

I would consider this progress. I am pretty sure my Q and U coil are working but the buzzing coming from my U makes me wonder if the coil is on it's way out or if it really needs a AG-9740 instead of the 9738 I think it has.

wayner I repeat my previous steps. Then I manually advanced the player unit. I could see the lights switching from player 1 to player 2. I couldn't understand the pattern. Nothing else happened.

It has been bothering me that my replay button is not working. So I decided to put a little time into it. Using my DMM in connectivity mode I placed a lead on the replay button switch. Then I placed my other lead on the Jones plug near the main fuses. I was getting connectivity, but it was intermittent. I noticed two little yellow Marrettes a little further up the wire I was trying to trace. I removed the Marrette and found there were no metal inserts inside

20181125_213345 (resized).jpg

Well that isn't going to do. So I busted out my soldering iron. I soldered the connectors together and covered them with clear shrink tubing. I decided to use clear because then it would be an obvious repair to anyone looking at the pin. Connectivity was solid this time.

Screen Shot 2018-11-26 at 9.54.31 PM (resized).png

I powered up the game and with 1 credit on the credit unit and tried the newly wired replay button. Nothing.

So I put my lead on the opposite side of the replay button switch and the other on the Jones plug again and hit the button. Good tone. So the replay button switch works to the Jones plug at least. I repeat all my connectivity tests in reverse to ensure the mated wire to the replay button switch had good tone to the Jones plug as well.

So the replay button switch works and the wiring to the first Jones plug is good.

I continued tracing the wires from the Jones plug and continued checking tone along the way. The wiring was good. Unfortunately, the replay button still isn't doing anything.

I started reading the pinrepair website and came across this;
"Credit unit on a Gottlieb EM. Again if the zero position switch is open (or dirty), regardless of the number of credits shown, the game will never reset via the front door start button."

Hmm... So I took a look at my credit unit. I used the PinWiki photos to ensure my credit unit had the switches set right. One was off, so I made the necessary adjustments. Verified it was incrementing/decrementing properly and the switches were opening/closing when they should be and decided to try powering on the pin again. Same results as before. Replay button is not doing anything. Q and U lock on when game turns on. Manually activating the START RELAY spins the score motor a bit and releases Q and U.

Dang.

No the orange is not hot.

I will take a photo tonight, although my schematics look identical to what you have posted. At least based on my memory.

Kids are in bed... Time to troubleshoot a bit more.

This is correct. I am not ignoring your advice HowardR it's just that I can't see if my V is energizing. The original relay is gone and has been replaced with an encased relay. I will try to see if it is doing anything at all tonight. I found my alligator clips (damn kids), but before I found them I had to resort to just using my DMM in connectivity mode again. So, HowardR I traced the circuit you highlighted in red. I paid extra attention to every switch. When I got to the zero position relay it toned out good (no tone), so I put a credit on the pin to make sure the switch was working. Tone. Good it worked. I decremented the credit unit and moved my test leads to the other side of this switch. Then started toning out things again. I didn't have any issues until I got to the AX relay. The switch that goes from Orange to Slate-White-Red had no tone when it should have. Upon closer inspection of Ax I could see that it was engaged. When I manually disengaged the armature my DMM started buzzing telling me that the switch had closed. So the gap on my switch is right, but the armature doesn't want to release properly. I am going to try to adjust the armature. I will report back with my results.

@theo_ioannis, I will try your suggestions next.

I swapped the coil spring with the armature spring and that was enough to get the armature engaging and releasing properly.

I continued with the alligator clips. Testing the game every time I got to a switch. I got to Motor 1C and Motor 2B but the switches are so tight in there it wasn't possible to get my alligator clips in without touching a switch I didn't want to be touching. Oh, and I didn't know the score motor tilted up! Man that is super handy! Even with it tilted up I still couldn't get the alligators in there, so I decided to just bypass the entire score motor. I connected one alligator clip to the sl-wh-red on Ax and the other alligator clip the the mar-gr on S. I powered on the pin (1 credit on the credit unit) and pressed the replay button. I saw a blue spare on the S relay, then noticed the credit decremented to 0!

I tried to repeat this again, but I was not able to get the same result (yes, I put another credit on the machine first). I tried moving the alligator clips around a bit more but I was never able to repeat this success again. I am not sure why.

The relays are all adjusted properly. I have flexstone and a L contact adjuster already at my disposal. It has been a lifesaver.

I haven't found a faulty switch yet. I'll use my DMM tonight to go through the circuit.

Using the credit switch to add credits manually is not working either.

Using the DMM I was able to see 32V on my orange wire connected to the Replay Button. I was able to press the button and a credit was removed from the credit unit. After I pressed the Replay Button the voltage dropped to 6V. So I kept my lead on the orange wire and rotated the Score Motor by hand until I saw 32V again. Once I saw 32V I was able to press the Replay Button again, then the voltage dropped to 6V.

I'm only measuring 32V with the Score Motor in one position.

I'm not seeing 25V on my V relay. I should see 25V on the orange-white wire while the Replay Button is pressed and Zero Position is closed correct?

(I'll move the wire on the transformer to the Normal position when I am done troubleshooting. It is currently on the High tap)

[EDIT] Okay, so I misspoke earlier when I stated I was not seeing 25V at my V relay. I am seeing it, but only momentarily when I push the Replay Button. Which makes sense because the Replay Button is normally open. As soon as I close the switch the 25V heads down to the W relay, then the Zero Position Relay and then to V.

So, the good news is that after playing with the score motor for a bit, and flexstoning 1C, and the Replay Button switch (again) I now have the Replay Button working fairly consistently.

The coin chute switches are still not working. I am going to troubleshoot this next. It looks like #1 coin chute and #2 coin chute travel along the same path as the Replay Button (I will check how my chute jumper is set) and to the W relay. This shouldn't be too difficult.

[EDIT2] Coin chute switches are working! My jumper was set to the 1st Coin Chute. I moved it over to 2nd Chute and voila! Why would it have been set the way it was?

Pretty happy with the progress tonight. Credits are incrementing/decrementing on the Zero Position Relay. Replay Button is working. Score Motor is spinning. It is getting late, so I am going to quit while I'm ahead.

I just wanted to say THANK YOU to everyone that is going on this journey with me!

Tomorrow I am going to try to get the score reels to reset and maybe, just maybe have a pinball kick into the shooter lane???

Back at it tonight. I turned the pin on and decided to try the credit switches and replay button again. If you recall, both were working well when I last turned off the pin.

I tried the coin switch first. Nothing.
There was a credit already on the pin so I pressed the replay button. Nothing.

Great... Back where I started.

Using my DMM and measured the voltage across the replay button. 32V. Good. I manually turned the score motor and it started to rotate on it's own. Then I checked the replay button voltage again and it was 6V. Damn it. WTF is going on?

I used some 600 grit and sanded down the 1C again. I could already see a blue spark, but I figured it couldn’t hurt. I cleaned 1C and the replay button with isopropyl. Waited for it to dry and then powered on the pin and tried the replay button again. Nothing.

I decided to hold the replay button down. This time I saw S try to energize. Nothing happened so I just kept holding in the replay button. S tried a few times. Then I saw a the credit wheel decrement. So I decided to try the coin switches again. I pressed the coin switch and the credit when up to 1. Again and it when up to 2. Good.

I am not sure what exactly is going on, but S seems to be having some issues.

Using https://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0449.html I decided I was getting to step 5. and decided my problem was Ax. "5. When 'AX' is actuated the score units and player unit reset sequence starts." Mine were not, but I could see Ax actuating.

I have read a lot about Ax and how it is very temperamental. I tweaked a few contacts but really didn't make any major adjustments. I put Ax back into position and turned on the pin.

I held in the replay button and smoke started coming from P, the score motor rotated continuously and the middle pop bumper started to slowly fire repeatedly. I powered down the pin right away. I was happy to see power to the playfield and the score motor rotating continuously, but Jesus, now what was wrong with P?

I waited.

I powered the pin back on and P did not smoke. I tried the replay button again and this time the reset seemed to be following the proper pattern. The score reels were already all at 0, but the score motor kept spinning.

Good. From what I've read this is usually something simple to fix. So I started examining all of my switches and steppers. No stuck steppers. No stuck switches that I could see.

It appears my Ax adjustments have helped a bit. I am not sure why the pop bumper is firing repeatedly or why the score motor is spinning constantly.

I seem to be making forward progress though. Any step forward is good. Oh, and I found this wire under my playfield. I am not sure where it goes. The solder pad looks broken off, but the wire is tied in and very short with not many options on where it could be from. I do not see a home for it. Does anyone know?

20181201_223934 (resized).jpg

I must have been tired last night. It definitely goes to the Jones right beside it. Take a look;

20181202_092503 (resized).jpg

What do you guys think of the other stuff in my post? Where to look for score reel reset issues?

Got a relay in the mail from Pinbee today! I cannot wait to get this thing installed!

I've been busy with a work trip to Montreal, Christmas parties and shopping but I'm going to start work on Surfer again this weekend! Stay tuned for new pics and an update with pinbee's relay!

Thank you pinbee!

Okay, my newish H relay has been soldered in! Thanks again Pinbee for the relay and the hand written wire placement! Here it is installed in the pin;

20181215_143105 (resized).jpg

Here's the relay that was in there. No reason it shouldn't have worked, but it made troubleshooting difficult.

20181215_143201 (resized).jpg

Updates.

Since my last post there has been quite a lot of progress on this game.

- Pressing either credit switch adds credits to the replay unit.
- Pressing the replay button subtracts a credit from the replay unit and begins the reset process*

*This does not always work.

- When the reset process does start, the player 1 and 2 score reels reset to zero.
- The middle pop bumper starts to pop.
- The kicker activates that kicks the ball into the shooter lane.

The issues I'm working on right now...

1) The pop bumper. I am not sure why it begins popping. It is a very slow repeating pop. POP-1sec-POP-1sec-POP. I've flexstoned the switch contacts, and adjusted them.

2) The score motor is rotating continuously. I believe this is because I do not have a ball in the machine. So the score motor is waiting for the ball to trigger the switch that it rolls over when it is kicked into the shooter lane.

3) The replay button. The button is working fine. It is one of the relays causing me grief. I still need to replace my V relay. I can also see U having issues. I am not sure if U is on it's way out or if Ax is causing it grief.

Any ideas are welcomed.

Okay a few more updates...

1) I have gotten the pop bumper under control. I think it just needs to be flexstoned a bit more

2) The score motor rotates non-stop. As soon as I turn on the game the score motor starts rotating. A stuck switch somewhere I guess I need to start flexstoning every switch in the game.

3) The U relay was buzzing really badly and seemed to be inconsistent. I decided to swap the coil on U with W since they are both supposed to be A-9740. My U had A-9738 engraved on it. So my U was not even the correct coil. I put the A-9740 from W into U and vice versa. I powered up the game. My credit switches stopped working so it looks like the A-9738 coil is done. I'll order another one from PBR. For now, I manually added credits on the replay unit. When I pressed the replay button the game started up. Reels reset and the ball (which was installed) kicked out.

I actually managed to play a game tonight. Flippers were working. Pops were popping. Slings were slinging. I racked up points (on switches that were working) and when I drained the ball, another one kicked out. The game didn't know it was suppose to end, so I got a ball 6 and 7, but overall I'm very happy with the progress!

I think the next step is to replace V with the proper coil and switch. I also went through the rest of my coils to see if they were correct.

W has a A-9738 when it should be A-9740
S has a A-9735 when it should be A-9740
H has a A-9740 when it should be a A-9738

I am going to verify the rest of the coils and then place a large order with PBR.

Mopar Do you have any parts to make a new V relay for me.

HowardR When I say every switch I don't mean every switch. I meant the switches under the playfield and even then I would only do one at a time until they are triggering properly. Right now they are all very intermittent. If I roll a ball over the switch sometimes it triggers, sometimes not. If I hold the switch down it almost always triggers.

Which switch(es) is(are) stuck is not obvious to me. I am assuming it is a playfield switch. I suppose I could disconnect the playfield and see if the score motor stops? That would eliminate the playfield as the culprit.

I'd have to guess that it is my Ax that is causing it to free spin. Ax is a pain in the ass.

Quoting myself here. Now that the holiday break is over I am going to place my PBR order. I am going to replace a few coils, but my main goal is to replace V with an original relay.

The main things I need clarification on are the bakelite spacers and screws. How many bakelite spacers for V? Thin or thick bakelite spacers? What length screws? Is there anyone willing to take apart their V relay and take a photo and/or measurements for me?

Awesome! Thanks @mopar! Please send it as a gift or I'll have to pay taxes on a 40 year old used part! I love the government!

Thank you both!

Pinbee that you for the nice close-up of V. Now please stop posting photos of your impeccably clean machine!

Mopar I received your gift package today! I am super excited to get this installed! It will be sooooo nice to have the proper switches in place so that I can figure out what the hell is going on with this pin. Thank you very much!

I'm hoping to get this soldering in tomorrow night!

I let this thread go cold. I am sorry for that. Life gets in the way.

I finally had some time today to work on this pin. I even played my first game (sort of) today.

I have been fiddling with the Ax relay. It really is a 'feel' thing, and its finicky as all hell. Probably one of the finickiest things I've ever worked with. I finally managed to dial it in, and I was able to see the game start. Press the start button, Ax energized, score reels reset, Ax de-energized, Ball kicked into the shooter lane!

So I decided to install my new V relay. I really do believe the old one was causing me grief. After the install I tried the REPLAY BUTTON and nothing. @pinbee I used your photo of V to re-wire my V. I had the same colour wires as you with the exception of your red-black wire. I have a different colour there. Is the photo of your V from a Surfer/Surf Champ? I'm wondering if I wired it wrong

Could someone take a photo of their V relay wiring with emphasis on the wiring and colours of the wire.

Thank you! Photo updates incoming!!!

Yes that is correct. You can see them in peebee's photo. On the other switch, I have a different colour red wire. I have the green-black, but my red is different than the one shown in the photo.

HowardR it looks like I'm going to be using your post #31 and checking out this section of the schematic again.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-first-em-surfer-newb-needs-help#post-4694718

Here's a couple of photos. Here are the old encased relays now removed from the game;
20190217_101247 (resized).jpg

Here is the new-ish V relay installed! It is working flawlessly!
20190217_101333 (resized).jpg

Today I managed to play a game. In fact, I managed to play my first 2 player game with my son on this pin! I was able to start a game, add a second player, play all 5 balls for both players and the game ended. Score reels were turning, pop bumpers were popping!

I would like to take this moment to say thank you to everyone that has helped me get this pin running. It is still a mess, but things are working and are stable! There are still things to work on, and I will have many more EM newbie questions. THANK YOU!

The thing I would like to work on next is the chimes. When I started the two player game, the chimes were there at the start. As we played I noticed the chimes stopped chiming. I can't have an EM game without chimes so I have to get them working!

HowardR Pinbee Mopar pinhead52

This game is working now. It is fully playable. Scoring works with only one exception, 3X. 2X works perfectly, but I do not understand how 3X is activated. I have read that it will only enable on ball 5, but I still can't get it to come on. Using the schematics, I see that 2X and 3X is controlled by 8B, 9B, and 10B. It also looks like 2X goes out when 3X is lit.

Under the playfield I can see the SL+GR wire. It is not getting 6V. I traced it back to the switch at 8B. I see 6V coming in on the switch, but the switch is open so 3X is not lit. With the game on, using a wooden chopstick, if I manually trigger the make-break switch 3X lights up. 2X goes out. Seems logical. It proves my path from the switch to the 3X bulb is good. My problem is the switch on 8B. 8B is in the large relay bank under the playfield and I'm not sure how it works. The switch obviously works, but the arm is not in the correct position to make contact on the make-break.

Is there a way to manually move the arms? By arms, I mean the black arm that moves and triggers the switches. Ugh... Terrible description there. Here is a picture. How does this arm activate?

Oh, and am I correct is saying that 3X only comes on for ball 5? If so, do you just need to activate the 5 red star rollovers and then one of the 'increase bonus multiplier when lit" rollovers to activate it?

20190310_154926 (resized).jpg

So it didn't take long to discover why my 3X wasn't activating;

20190316_130342 (resized).jpg

Crispy!

I will have to order a new coil for 10B. Off to the schematics to see what type of coil this was in a previous life.

This is a super old thread, but I didn't see the need to start another one.

When we last left our hero, 10B was fried. Since then, 10B has been replaced and my 3X is now working! Unfortunately, some other gremlins seem to be coming up. The game still starts and resets without any difficulties. However, the ball never kicks over into the shooter lane. I did some searching on the internet and found this section from xmission;

"8. Place the ball in the out hole. The ball return switch closes and completes the circuit to 'O' relay through the normally closed switches on zero position 'Bonus' unit, motor 1C, motor 2B, 'Q', and 'AX' relays. 'O' relay locks-in. Through switches on motor 4C, motor 1A, 'BX' and 'O' the ball return coil actuates kicking the ball onto the runway."

This is where I am having issues. If I manually activate 'O' the ball return coil does not actuate and does not kick the ball onto the runway. I am looking at 'O' on the schematics but this is a very complicated area. It crosses over to P coil, I, G, K, V, etc.

How do I narrow the section down?

Thank you. Done;

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/surfer-ball-won-t-kick-into-shooter-lane#post-5265930

*THREAD CLOSED*