(Topic ID: 229178)
Malvern East
Yea, it's a pretty good camera and I had it for quite a while. Just the past few months it had problems
with getting out of focus while snapping shots. Even close ups were once no problem just on Auto.
It'll mis-focus while taking distance shots also, but not as often.
There's a camera shop a couple towns over. I'm sure it'll turn out to be something pretty simple,
but maybe something just not right with the camera itself..
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.. (T)
Limassol
Quoted from Mopar:Yea, it's a pretty good camera and I had it for quite a while. Just the past few months it had problems
with getting out of focus while snapping shots. Even close ups were once no problem just on Auto.
It'll mis-focus while taking distance shots also, but not as often.
There's a camera shop a couple towns over. I'm sure it'll turn out to be something pretty simple,
but maybe something just not right with the camera itself..
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.. (T)
Even though I own a Nikon D800 and dedicated macro lens , I almost always use my Phone to take pinball pics.
Is always available , the pics are easily shareable , and the quality is fine for almost all applications.
It just seems from the pics and your comments fifty that there have been a number of changes(hacks) to your machine so that may mean normal logic to why the game is not working is not applicable or more difficult to trace. You have mentioned relays in different places according to the labelling but I am bewildered by some of the 'foreign' relays included in your post 35. I would go back to the start routine for this machine (do you have the manual) and before you change anything try to grasp how far you get on the start routine and then work step by step. Wholesale change despite the best of intentions can often bring wholesale new problems as already indicated by HowardR and curriedog).
Some time ago our revered colleague dirtflipper posted this simple task checklist which I have always found a good starting point-
"Maybe the thing to do is to begin at the beginning:
- manually reset all score reels to zero
- manually reset all relay banks
- unlatch any interlock relays
- have a credit on the credit unit
- place the ball in the outhole
- press the start button
What happens?"
Quoted from wayner:It just seems from the pics and your comments fifty that there have been a number of changes(hacks) to your machine so that may mean normal logic to why the game is not working is not applicable or more difficult to trace. You have mentioned relays in different places according to the labelling but I am bewildered by some of the 'foreign' relays included in you post 35. I would go back to the start routine for this machine (do you have the manual) and before you change anything try to grasp how far you get on the start routine and then work step by step. Wholesale change despite the best of intentions can often bring wholesale new problems as already indicated by HowardR and curriedog).
Some time ago our revered colleague dirtflipper posted this simple task checklist which I have always found a good starting point-
"Maybe the thing to do is to begin at the beginning:
- manually reset all score reels to zero
- manually reset all relay banks
- unlatch any interlock relays
- have a credit on the credit unit
- place the ball in the outhole
- press the start button
What happens?"
Yes, I have the manual. My plan was to remove the foreign relays and replace them with the original relays. I am asking for photos so that I can order the proper pieces from PBR for the missing relays. I am in Canada so I don't want to miss anything and have to place multiple orders.
In the meantime, I'm using the photos and schematic to verify my 'new' Q and U relays are wired correctly now that they are using the relays from V and H.
I definitely think I need to go back to the start routine, but after I have some of the missing components repopulated in the pin.
Not a bad idea getting it back to factory. Who knows how those concealed relays
may be wired..
I gave it another shot. I don't think these pics are any better. Couldn't get a pic of the
last relay. Low batteries. For cameras, I have this one and a vintage 35 mm.
When someone stops over with a smart phone, I'll see about having them take some
pics..
IMG_1423 (resized).JPGIMG_1424 (resized).JPGIMG_1425 (resized).JPGIMG_1426 (resized).JPGIMG_1427 (resized).JPGQuoted from Fifty:Yes, I have the manual. My plan was to remove the foreign relays and replace them with the original relays. I am asking for photos so that I can order the proper pieces from PBR for the missing relays. I am in Canada so I don't want to miss anything and have to place multiple orders.
In the meantime, I'm using the photos and schematic to verify my 'new' Q and U relays are wired correctly now that they are using the relays from V and H.
I definitely think I need to go back to the start routine, but after I have some of the missing components repopulated in the pin.
When you purchased the machine fifty did you get any feedback on whether the machine had worked. I guess what I am suggesting is that even before you start 'returning the machine to factory' try to better understand what it will do and what it will not. Often returning to factory is easier said than done and as has been said previously any further change can bring about unintended consequences to further cloud the resolution. By using the start routine as the prompt that should give a step by step approach as you gain info to make logical decisions. On the other hand I am conscious that many hacks did not result in a working machine and in that regard adopting a logical course forward is fraught.
Quoted from Fifty:A previous owner took the original V and H relays in this pin and relocated them to Q and U.
I have good suspicion that they do, but if you'd like, you can take a pic of each side of what should
be the Q and U Relays so I'll be able to confirm that the switches, stacks, and wiring all match up..
I looked all the pictures.......
I see Fifty's "V" relay has 2 rows of switches with 8-slot armature in position Q......
Mopar's "V" relay has 1 row of switches with 4-slot armature 
Quoted from Theo_Ioannis:I looked all the pictures.......
I see Fifty's "V" relay has 2 rows of switches with 8-slot armature in position Q......
Mopar's "V" relay has 1 row of switches with 4-slot armature
Yes, at one point, for some reason (burnt out coils ???), someone took the V Relay
and transferred it for the Q, and the H Relay, and used it for the U Relay. That made it so
those more modern (or Chicago Coin ?) concealed relays would be more possible (or
at least easier) to install because the original H and V Relays only had one stack of switches.
The original Q and U Relays were missing, burnt out, something, and this route was takin' to
solve, or at least attempt to solve the problem..
Quoted from wayner:When you purchased the machine fifty did you get any feedback on whether the machine had worked. I guess what I am suggesting is that even before you start 'returning the machine to factory' try to better understand what it will do and what it will not. Often returning to factory is easier said than done and as has been said previously any further change can bring about unintended consequences to further cloud the resolution. By using the start routine as the prompt that should give a step by step approach as you gain info to make logical decisions. On the other hand I am conscious that many hacks did not result in a working machine and in that regard adopting a logical course forward is fraught.
The previous owner told me that he was able to start a game but then it stopped working. Who knows if that is true though. I knew it was a mess and a project when I bought it but it was affordable, and I enjoy a challenge. The timing was good, I had some spare $, and I knew I could get it working. This relay swap was outside of what I thought might be wrong with the pin but it's not something I'm intimidated by.
Quoted from Mopar:I have good suspicion that they do, but if you'd like, you can take a pic of each side of what should
be the Q and U Relays so I'll be able to confirm that the switches, stacks, and wiring all match up..
I will definitely do this. I appreciate all the help. I am going to compare your Q to mine first tomorrow. The photos you took are perfect for this. I will post the comparison tomorrow.
Quoted from Theo_Ioannis:I looked all the pictures.......
I see Fifty's "V" relay has 2 rows of switches with 8-slot armature in position Q......
Mopar's "V" relay has 1 row of switches with 4-slot armature
Wow! Awesome! Thank you for doing these comparisons. Doing this was my plan for the weekend. Make the comparisons, swap the relays back if it makes sense to do so, otherwise just update the stickers on the relays. I will eventually remove the newer relays, and put together a parts list. I just need to dedicate some time to it.
Quoted from Mopar:Yes, at one point, for some reason (burnt out coils ???), someone took the V Relay
and transferred it for the Q, and the H Relay, and used it for the U Relay. That made it so
those more modern (or Chicago Coin ?) concealed relays would be more possible (or
at least easier) to install because the original H and V Relays only had one stack of switches.
The original Q and U Relays were missing, burnt out, something, and this route was takin' to
solve, or at least attempt to solve the problem..
Looks like the newer type relays sell for about $20 a piece. So $40 to try and fix it. I'm guessing this would have been cheaper to replace than the entire relay with the old style. Or maybe the previous owner sold relays for a living, or just found them in his attic. There are no markings on them that I can see, so I can't look them up on a spec sheet. I'm able to see the physical switches inside them but I've never seen them move.
Quoted from wayner:"Maybe the thing to do is to begin at the beginning:
- manually reset all score reels to zero
- manually reset all relay banks
- unlatch any interlock relays
- have a credit on the credit unit
- place the ball in the outhole
- press the start button
What happens?"
wayner What are you referring to when you say "relay banks"?
How do I unlatch the interlock relays and where are they?
Yes, I'm new to this. Sorry!
I'll work on this a bit tomorrow guys and post an update. I really appreciate all the help and comments on this.
You're welcome Fifty! 
You are going to rebuild 4 relays!!! 
.....H, Q, U and V
Disolder all the wires and bring 2 relays to your workbench and other 2 to trash bin and
get another 2 new or used "AG" relays housing frames and clips.....
Make a list of each relay....
For V:
One 4-Slot E/M Armature with Insulated Arm # A-5369
One Spring # A-5081
Two Make Switch with what size? small or large points ?? 
Switch (resized).jpg
How many 1/16" and 3/64" bakelite switch blade separators?
How many override blade retainer?
What length of screws for a stack of switches?
Well.....me think you should buy 3-5 cheap used relays from "The EM seeking parts thread"
Disassembly all into pieces and build new one? ........exactly match with Mopar's pictures?
Can't wait to see your machine to get working again.....Good luck!!!
Thanks Theo. Hold up a minute though. I may not have to replace all 4. I may have a bunch of parts to play with already too. Baby steps!
Here is my Q coil. Yes, it look like crap but it is working. Looks aren't everything!
20181124_111327 (resized).jpg
So, working from left to right on one side only here is what I am seeing;
Switches.
There are 3 of them. NO, NC, NC
Wiring. Starting at the coil.
Blue. Black x2
NO = 5 wires. Blue. Blue+Black. Blue+White (maybe yellow).
NC = 4 wires. Orange-Black. Brown-Black.
NC = 4 wires. Red+Yellow x2. Red-Yellow x2.
- means there is only a spec of the second colour
+ means the wire shares each colour equally
If I compare this to the photo from Mopar I think it is correct. It is difficult to see some of the wire colours because of the lighting and angle of the photos.
If I flip the coil over and do the other side now.
20181124_111238 (resized).jpg
Again from left to right.
Switches.
There are 2 of them. MB (NC/NO), NO.
Wiring.
MB = 3 wires. Yellow-Slate. Yellow-Black.
NO = 2 wires. Black-Yellow. Brown+Black. Black+Yellow.
Pinbee and I talked about this before, but I can confirm my Q relay has the proper number of switches. 5, and they are adjusted properly. This relay, despite it being labelled V has the proper parts.
Also, I believe I have the correct wiring to each of the switches on my Q relay. A few of the colours are faded, burned or dirty but they appear to be in the proper positions. Mopar seems to have one wire that is blue-yellow-pink that I can't find but I believe this is my blue-yellow wire from the first image and that the pink has just faded from existence.
Now that I have confirmed Q is correct I think it is safe to assume U is also correct. Actually, screw it... I've come this far, so I'll verify my U has the proper switches/wiring.
Back in a bit...
Okay. My U coil. Starting with the coil side.
Coil. Black x2. Navy.
NO = Navy. Slate-White x2. Green-Yellow x2.
NO = Orange-Yellow x2. Brown-Yellow x2.
NC = Yellow-Blue x2. Black-Slate
Bracket side.
MB (NC/NO) = White-Brown. Orange-Red x 2.
NO = Brown-Yellow. White-Blue x2
NO = Brown. Yellow x2.
My U coil has 4 NO, 1 NC, and 1 MB. 6 switches total. Again, this verifies what Pinbee and I spoke about earlier in this thread and matches up with the Gottlieb schematic.
Using Mopar photos, it is difficult to make out some of the wiring on U, but what I am able to see does match up to my coil wiring.
At this point, I have to assume that Q and U failed at some point so someone used V and H as shells to replace them. They moved them over, added switches, and re-soldered everything. They have the correct switch stacks and seem to be wired properly.
They then used the new encased relays on V and H. I am guessing V and H were chosen as giunea pigs because they were the simplest relays in the game to move over.
What is the difference between a A-9740 coil and a 9738? My thinking.... Q and V use the same coil. U and H do not. If a one for one swap was done for U with H then I have to assume the coil for my U is incorrect. I cannot tell because it is missing the coil wrap. It should be using a A-9740 but it would be using a A-9738.
I am going to have to order relay parts to get V and H back to factory. I'll order a few extra coils as well.
Next step is to compile a list of parts to get V and H back to normal.
Here is the part list for V.
qty 1 - GTB-9740, coil
qty 1 - C-4989, housing/relay frame
qty 1 - A-9519, relay clip*
qty 1 - A-5081, spring
qty 1 - GTB-A5369, 4 slot armature E/M
qty 2 - GTB-B5364, Switch, Make with Small Points
qty 4 - screws??? (see below)
qty ? - bakelite spacers (see below)
*Not sure if the screw that holds the relay clip in place is included with the relay clip or if it comes with the coil.
The only thing missing is the spacers and the screws for the switch stacks. I am not sure what is needed here. PBR shows these screws but the measurements seem off;
Screen Shot 2018-11-24 at 1.42.58 PM (resized).png
Here are the spacers. Is there any sort of standard for how many are required and how thick?
I just carefully checked, and as expected, the Q and U Relays do look to be wired and stacked accurately. All good.
And yes, the Q, U, and V use the same coil, so the way Q presently sits, should be fine. Although it may work okay,
probably best to change the U to a 9740 (no big deal)..
With my camera's blurry pics alone, it'll probably be a little tough to get the V and H Relays stacked perfectly. I should
have all the parts needed to do that, so hold up on the order, and tomorrow I'll see about making up those two relays,
and making sure H has the 9738 coil..
Is there any way to make sure that the Q coil energizes okay? Maybe jumping off of the Coin Return Coil on the
backside of the coin door? I'll make sure the Relays I put together fire okay..
Here is another shot of V and H. Also a shot of a donor switch I have which will replace H, only the middle blades need reversed to make them Normally closed. It has the proper 9738 coil. It should be easy to find a replacement for V, only two switches. Fifty, we can PM details about getting my switch to you.
image (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpegQuoted from Mopar:I just carefully checked, and as expected, the Q and U Relays do look to be wired and stacked accurately. All good.
And yes, the Q, U, and V use the same coil, so the way Q presently sits, should be fine. Although it may work okay,
probably best to change the U to a 9740 (no big deal)..
With my camera's blurry pics alone, it'll probably be a little tough to get the V and H Relays stacked perfectly. I should
have all the parts needed to do that, so hold up on the order, and tomorrow I'll see about making up those two relays,
and making sure H has the 9738 coil..
Is there any way to make sure that the Q coil energizes okay? Maybe jumping off of the Coin Return Coil on the
backside of the coin door? I'll make sure the Relays I put together fire okay..
Quoted from Pinbee:Here is another shot of V and H. Also a shot of a donor switch I have which will replace H, only the middle blades need reversed to make them Normally closed. It has the proper 9738 coil. It should be easy to find a replacement for V, only two switches. Fifty, we can PM details about getting my switch to you.
[quoted image][quoted image]
You guys are awesome!
Pinbee I am super jealous at the cleanliness of your relays and cabinet. I will gladly accept your donor switch. I'll PM you shortly. With regards to reversing the middle switch so that it is normally closed, is it possible to reverse them? I was under the assumption that to make it normally closed I would have to remove a section of bakelite. I thought that some of the bakelite was fused/riveted/glued together and couldn't be separated?
Here is normally open with two pieces of bakelite separating the contacts;
Screen Shot 2018-11-24 at 4.45.59 PM (resized).png
Here is normally closed with only one piece of bakelite separating the contacts;
Screen Shot 2018-11-24 at 4.46.13 PM (resized).png
Mopar let me know what you have and then I'll work something out between you and Pinbee.
Quoted from wayner:It just seems from the pics and your comments fifty that there have been a number of changes(hacks) to your machine so that may mean normal logic to why the game is not working is not applicable or more difficult to trace. You have mentioned relays in different places according to the labelling but I am bewildered by some of the 'foreign' relays included in your post 35. I would go back to the start routine for this machine (do you have the manual) and before you change anything try to grasp how far you get on the start routine and then work step by step. Wholesale change despite the best of intentions can often bring wholesale new problems as already indicated by HowardR and curriedog).
Some time ago our revered colleague dirtflipper posted this simple task checklist which I have always found a good starting point-
"Maybe the thing to do is to begin at the beginning:
- manually reset all score reels to zero
- manually reset all relay banks
- unlatch any interlock relays
- have a credit on the credit unit
- place the ball in the outhole
- press the start button
What happens?"
wayner since I am going to have to wait on parts I re-read your post and wanted to try this. The new enclosed relays in my game I want to assume work, so I'm going to go ahead and try what you said.
I have the score reels set to zero.
I manually reset the drop targets.
I manually reset the bonus unit
I checked under the playfield for any binding units or stuck switches.
I have 1 credit on the credit unit
I wanted to leave the playfield up in service mode, so I took a piece of cardboard and inserted it into the ballhole switch so it made contact.
When I powered on the machine Q and U locked on and U started buzzing LOUDLY.
I pressed the start button.
Nothing.
Q and U remained energized. U continued to buzz loudly.
I decided to start manually activating relays.
I used a pen and manually activated the START RELAY. The SCORE MOTOR started to spin and then came to rest. Q and U de-energized. The buzzing stopped.
I removed the piece of cardboard and manually activated the outhole switch to simulate a ball ejecting into the shooter lane. This didn't do anything.
I tried pressing a few of the playfield switches anyway just to see if I was awarded any points but nothing happened. I assumed as much as I still had 1 credit showing on the credit unit.
I would consider this progress. I am pretty sure my Q and U coil are working but the buzzing coming from my U makes me wonder if the coil is on it's way out or if it really needs a AG-9740 instead of the 9738 I think it has.
Quoted from wayner:From that exercise suggest you try manually advancing the player unit.
wayner I repeat my previous steps. Then I manually advanced the player unit. I could see the lights switching from player 1 to player 2. I couldn't understand the pattern. Nothing else happened.
It has been bothering me that my replay button is not working. So I decided to put a little time into it. Using my DMM in connectivity mode I placed a lead on the replay button switch. Then I placed my other lead on the Jones plug near the main fuses. I was getting connectivity, but it was intermittent. I noticed two little yellow Marrettes a little further up the wire I was trying to trace. I removed the Marrette and found there were no metal inserts inside
Well that isn't going to do. So I busted out my soldering iron. I soldered the connectors together and covered them with clear shrink tubing. I decided to use clear because then it would be an obvious repair to anyone looking at the pin. Connectivity was solid this time.
Screen Shot 2018-11-26 at 9.54.31 PM (resized).png
I powered up the game and with 1 credit on the credit unit and tried the newly wired replay button. Nothing.
So I put my lead on the opposite side of the replay button switch and the other on the Jones plug again and hit the button. Good tone. So the replay button switch works to the Jones plug at least. I repeat all my connectivity tests in reverse to ensure the mated wire to the replay button switch had good tone to the Jones plug as well.
So the replay button switch works and the wiring to the first Jones plug is good.
I continued tracing the wires from the Jones plug and continued checking tone along the way. The wiring was good. Unfortunately, the replay button still isn't doing anything.
I started reading the pinrepair website and came across this;
"Credit unit on a Gottlieb EM. Again if the zero position switch is open (or dirty), regardless of the number of credits shown, the game will never reset via the front door start button."
Hmm... So I took a look at my credit unit. I used the PinWiki photos to ensure my credit unit had the switches set right. One was off, so I made the necessary adjustments. Verified it was incrementing/decrementing properly and the switches were opening/closing when they should be and decided to try powering on the pin again. Same results as before. Replay button is not doing anything. Q and U lock on when game turns on. Manually activating the START RELAY spins the score motor a bit and releases Q and U.
Dang.
Quoted from Theo_Ioannis:Is the orange wire hot (25v) ??
If yes, then you have a problem somewhere between S coil and Replay button.
Take a photo of your schematic (from coils V and S to 25v line) and post it.....
Like this (mine for Jet Spin)
[quoted image]
No the orange is not hot.
I will take a photo tonight, although my schematics look identical to what you have posted. At least based on my memory.
Quoted from Fifty:No the orange is not hot.
Ok, look at between the replay button and 25v line in my Jet Spin schematic.....see the green circles? these are all
4 normally closed switches-- AX, Motor 1C, Motor 2B and Anti-Cheat switches.
schematics C (resized).jpg
Test each switch and make sure fully closed.... clean the contact points with very fine sandpaper.
Do you know the location of motor 1C and 2B switches?
scan0003 (resized).jpg
Edit: You can bypass a switch or more with an alligator clip jumper wire......easy to find out.
IMG_2351 (resized).JPG
Boulder, CO
Quoted from Fifty:Replay button is not doing anything.
If the Replay Button doesn't activate the Replay Button (V) relay, inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.
Pinball (resized).pngQuoted from HowardR:If the Replay Button doesn't activate the Replay Button (V) relay, inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.
[quoted image]
He doesn't have the original V relay...... his bottom panel has been hacked.
He's gonna find a replacement for V and install soon.
Quoted from Theo_Ioannis:He doesn't have the original V relay...... his bottom panel has been hacked.
He's gonna find a replacement for V and install soon.
Kids are in bed... Time to troubleshoot a bit more.
This is correct. I am not ignoring your advice HowardR it's just that I can't see if my V is energizing. The original relay is gone and has been replaced with an encased relay. I will try to see if it is doing anything at all tonight. I found my alligator clips (damn kids), but before I found them I had to resort to just using my DMM in connectivity mode again. So,
HowardR I traced the circuit you highlighted in red. I paid extra attention to every switch. When I got to the zero position relay it toned out good (no tone), so I put a credit on the pin to make sure the switch was working. Tone. Good it worked. I decremented the credit unit and moved my test leads to the other side of this switch. Then started toning out things again. I didn't have any issues until I got to the AX relay. The switch that goes from Orange to Slate-White-Red had no tone when it should have. Upon closer inspection of Ax I could see that it was engaged. When I manually disengaged the armature my DMM started buzzing telling me that the switch had closed. So the gap on my switch is right, but the armature doesn't want to release properly. I am going to try to adjust the armature. I will report back with my results.
@theo_ioannis, I will try your suggestions next.
I swapped the coil spring with the armature spring and that was enough to get the armature engaging and releasing properly.
I continued with the alligator clips. Testing the game every time I got to a switch. I got to Motor 1C and Motor 2B but the switches are so tight in there it wasn't possible to get my alligator clips in without touching a switch I didn't want to be touching. Oh, and I didn't know the score motor tilted up! Man that is super handy! Even with it tilted up I still couldn't get the alligators in there, so I decided to just bypass the entire score motor. I connected one alligator clip to the sl-wh-red on Ax and the other alligator clip the the mar-gr on S. I powered on the pin (1 credit on the credit unit) and pressed the replay button. I saw a blue spare on the S relay, then noticed the credit decremented to 0!
I tried to repeat this again, but I was not able to get the same result (yes, I put another credit on the machine first). I tried moving the alligator clips around a bit more but I was never able to repeat this success again. I am not sure why.
Quoted from Fifty:I can't see if my V is energizing.
Hook one of these bulb testers or a voltmeter in parallel with the coil
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic/page/2#post-3184715
Quoted from Fifty:I still couldn't get the alligators in there......
That's OK, use a multimeter.
When you find a faulty switch, adjust the leaf blades with a small flat screwdriver to function correctly.
If all AX, 1C, 2B and Anti-Cheat switches are fully functioning.......you will have a hot orange wire......
and move on to W switch, Zero Pos. Replay Unit switch, U switches, etc....all the way to V and S coils later.
Better tools from PBR.....
Tools (resized).jpg
Don't forget to take a picture of your schematic...(V and S only)....Howard's pic is little hard to read.... 
You can add some credits manually on Credit unit with your finger..... for replay button tests.
Anti-Cheat switch is on coin door.....
Cheers.
The relays are all adjusted properly. I have flexstone and a L contact adjuster already at my disposal. It has been a lifesaver.
I haven't found a faulty switch yet. I'll use my DMM tonight to go through the circuit.
Using the credit switch to add credits manually is not working either.
Quoted from Fifty:Using the credit switch to add credits manually is not working either.
Yes, it's same 25v circuit with Replay Button....See Howard's pic with my new 25v orange line.....
b3db985aa54a0b8b16dae06c767d9033d060cfcc (resized).png
Using the DMM I was able to see 32V on my orange wire connected to the Replay Button. I was able to press the button and a credit was removed from the credit unit. After I pressed the Replay Button the voltage dropped to 6V. So I kept my lead on the orange wire and rotated the Score Motor by hand until I saw 32V again. Once I saw 32V I was able to press the Replay Button again, then the voltage dropped to 6V.
I'm only measuring 32V with the Score Motor in one position.
I'm not seeing 25V on my V relay. I should see 25V on the orange-white wire while the Replay Button is pressed and Zero Position is closed correct?
(I'll move the wire on the transformer to the Normal position when I am done troubleshooting. It is currently on the High tap)
[EDIT] Okay, so I misspoke earlier when I stated I was not seeing 25V at my V relay. I am seeing it, but only momentarily when I push the Replay Button. Which makes sense because the Replay Button is normally open. As soon as I close the switch the 25V heads down to the W relay, then the Zero Position Relay and then to V.
So, the good news is that after playing with the score motor for a bit, and flexstoning 1C, and the Replay Button switch (again) I now have the Replay Button working fairly consistently.
The coin chute switches are still not working. I am going to troubleshoot this next. It looks like #1 coin chute and #2 coin chute travel along the same path as the Replay Button (I will check how my chute jumper is set) and to the W relay. This shouldn't be too difficult.
[EDIT2] Coin chute switches are working! My jumper was set to the 1st Coin Chute. I moved it over to 2nd Chute and voila! Why would it have been set the way it was?
Pretty happy with the progress tonight. Credits are incrementing/decrementing on the Zero Position Relay. Replay Button is working. Score Motor is spinning. It is getting late, so I am going to quit while I'm ahead.
I just wanted to say THANK YOU to everyone that is going on this journey with me!
Tomorrow I am going to try to get the score reels to reset and maybe, just maybe have a pinball kick into the shooter lane???
Back at it tonight. I turned the pin on and decided to try the credit switches and replay button again. If you recall, both were working well when I last turned off the pin.
I tried the coin switch first. Nothing.
There was a credit already on the pin so I pressed the replay button. Nothing.
Great... Back where I started.
Using my DMM and measured the voltage across the replay button. 32V. Good. I manually turned the score motor and it started to rotate on it's own. Then I checked the replay button voltage again and it was 6V. Damn it. WTF is going on?
I used some 600 grit and sanded down the 1C again. I could already see a blue spark, but I figured it couldn’t hurt. I cleaned 1C and the replay button with isopropyl. Waited for it to dry and then powered on the pin and tried the replay button again. Nothing.
I decided to hold the replay button down. This time I saw S try to energize. Nothing happened so I just kept holding in the replay button. S tried a few times. Then I saw a the credit wheel decrement. So I decided to try the coin switches again. I pressed the coin switch and the credit when up to 1. Again and it when up to 2. Good.
I am not sure what exactly is going on, but S seems to be having some issues.
Using https://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0449.html I decided I was getting to step 5. and decided my problem was Ax. "5. When 'AX' is actuated the score units and player unit reset sequence starts." Mine were not, but I could see Ax actuating.
I have read a lot about Ax and how it is very temperamental. I tweaked a few contacts but really didn't make any major adjustments. I put Ax back into position and turned on the pin.
I held in the replay button and smoke started coming from P, the score motor rotated continuously and the middle pop bumper started to slowly fire repeatedly. I powered down the pin right away. I was happy to see power to the playfield and the score motor rotating continuously, but Jesus, now what was wrong with P?
I waited.
I powered the pin back on and P did not smoke. I tried the replay button again and this time the reset seemed to be following the proper pattern. The score reels were already all at 0, but the score motor kept spinning.
Good. From what I've read this is usually something simple to fix. So I started examining all of my switches and steppers. No stuck steppers. No stuck switches that I could see.
It appears my Ax adjustments have helped a bit. I am not sure why the pop bumper is firing repeatedly or why the score motor is spinning constantly.
I seem to be making forward progress though. Any step forward is good. Oh, and I found this wire under my playfield. I am not sure where it goes. The solder pad looks broken off, but the wire is tied in and very short with not many options on where it could be from. I do not see a home for it. Does anyone know?
Not many places that detached wire can reach. Try an arc and see where it leads-perhaps that first left terminal on the female jones plug.
Quoted from wayner:perhaps that first left terminal on the female jones plug.
I think so.......check the color wire on male Jones plug......color matched?
That Jones plug is from the removable "AS" Relay (mini stepper)
Got a relay in the mail from Pinbee today! I cannot wait to get this thing installed!
I've been busy with a work trip to Montreal, Christmas parties and shopping but I'm going to start work on Surfer again this weekend! Stay tuned for new pics and an update with pinbee's relay!
Thank you pinbee!
1 week later
Okay, my newish H relay has been soldered in! Thanks again Pinbee for the relay and the hand written wire placement! Here it is installed in the pin;
Here's the relay that was in there. No reason it shouldn't have worked, but it made troubleshooting difficult.
Updates.
Since my last post there has been quite a lot of progress on this game.
- Pressing either credit switch adds credits to the replay unit.
- Pressing the replay button subtracts a credit from the replay unit and begins the reset process*
*This does not always work.
- When the reset process does start, the player 1 and 2 score reels reset to zero.
- The middle pop bumper starts to pop.
- The kicker activates that kicks the ball into the shooter lane.
The issues I'm working on right now...
1) The pop bumper. I am not sure why it begins popping. It is a very slow repeating pop. POP-1sec-POP-1sec-POP. I've flexstoned the switch contacts, and adjusted them.
2) The score motor is rotating continuously. I believe this is because I do not have a ball in the machine. So the score motor is waiting for the ball to trigger the switch that it rolls over when it is kicked into the shooter lane.
3) The replay button. The button is working fine. It is one of the relays causing me grief. I still need to replace my V relay. I can also see U having issues. I am not sure if U is on it's way out or if Ax is causing it grief.
Any ideas are welcomed.
Quoted from Fifty:1) The pop bumper. I am not sure why it begins popping. It is a very slow repeating pop. POP-1sec-POP-1sec-POP. I've flexstoned the switch contacts, and adjusted them.
2) The score motor is rotating continuously. I believe this is because I do not have a ball in the machine. So the score motor is waiting for the ball to trigger the switch that it rolls over when it is kicked into the shooter lane.
3) The replay button. The button is working fine. It is one of the relays causing me grief. I still need to replace my V relay. I can also see U having issues. I am not sure if U is on it's way out or if Ax is causing it grief.
Any ideas are welcomed.
Okay a few more updates...
1) I have gotten the pop bumper under control. I think it just needs to be flexstoned a bit more
2) The score motor rotates non-stop. As soon as I turn on the game the score motor starts rotating. A stuck switch somewhere I guess I need to start flexstoning every switch in the game.
3) The U relay was buzzing really badly and seemed to be inconsistent. I decided to swap the coil on U with W since they are both supposed to be A-9740. My U had A-9738 engraved on it. So my U was not even the correct coil. I put the A-9740 from W into U and vice versa. I powered up the game. My credit switches stopped working so it looks like the A-9738 coil is done. I'll order another one from PBR. For now, I manually added credits on the replay unit. When I pressed the replay button the game started up. Reels reset and the ball (which was installed) kicked out.
I actually managed to play a game tonight. Flippers were working. Pops were popping. Slings were slinging. I racked up points (on switches that were working) and when I drained the ball, another one kicked out. The game didn't know it was suppose to end, so I got a ball 6 and 7, but overall I'm very happy with the progress!
I think the next step is to replace V with the proper coil and switch. I also went through the rest of my coils to see if they were correct.
W has a A-9738 when it should be A-9740
S has a A-9735 when it should be A-9740
H has a A-9740 when it should be a A-9738
I am going to verify the rest of the coils and then place a large order with PBR.
Mopar Do you have any parts to make a new V relay for me.
Quoted from Fifty:I guess I need to start flexstoning every switch in the game.
Sorry but that would be a mistake. This forum is full of posts from people who tried shotgun cleaning & adjustments, and caused more problems than they were originally trying to solve.
What to do instead: Slowly and carefully diagnose one problem at a time and then fix only that.
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#clean
Quoted from Fifty:The score motor rotates non-stop.
It's probably obvious which one of these relays or switches is stuck closed. If not, put slips of paper in the switches to see which one stops the motor.
HowardR When I say every switch I don't mean every switch. I meant the switches under the playfield and even then I would only do one at a time until they are triggering properly. Right now they are all very intermittent. If I roll a ball over the switch sometimes it triggers, sometimes not. If I hold the switch down it almost always triggers.
Which switch(es) is(are) stuck is not obvious to me. I am assuming it is a playfield switch. I suppose I could disconnect the playfield and see if the score motor stops? That would eliminate the playfield as the culprit.
Yes, if a Relay isn't remaining energized, it's most likely a closed switch in one of them. It possibly could
also be the run out switch (1C) off of the Score Motor's cam. Just need to check the adjustments where
they would logically open and close..
Yes, I have a relay that'll work for the V. It has a couple of extra top switches that you could remove if
you'd like. I tested the coil, and it's fine.. Let me know where you'd like to have it sent..
timnewarkny at gmail dot com
IMG_1431 (resized).JPG 2 weeks later
Quoted from Fifty:Here is the part list for V.
qty 1 - GTB-9740, coil
qty 1 - C-4989, housing/relay frame
qty 1 - A-9519, relay clip*
qty 1 - A-5081, spring
qty 1 - GTB-A5369, 4 slot armature E/M
qty 2 - GTB-B5364, Switch, Make with Small Points
qty 4 - screws??? (see below)
qty ? - bakelite spacers (see below)
*Not sure if the screw that holds the relay clip in place is included with the relay clip or if it comes with the coil.
The only thing missing is the spacers and the screws for the switch stacks. I am not sure what is needed here. PBR shows these screws but the measurements seem off;
[quoted image]
Here are the spacers. Is there any sort of standard for how many are required and how thick?
[quoted image]
Quoting myself here. Now that the holiday break is over I am going to place my PBR order. I am going to replace a few coils, but my main goal is to replace V with an original relay.
The main things I need clarification on are the bakelite spacers and screws. How many bakelite spacers for V? Thin or thick bakelite spacers? What length screws? Is there anyone willing to take apart their V relay and take a photo and/or measurements for me?
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