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(Topic ID: 101135)

My first EM! (need help with Grand Prix, video added)


By MagicMako

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 48 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by SirScott
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There have been 16 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

right stepper.jpg
left stepper.jpg
Total reset.JPG
Game operation.JPG
Reset units t.s.s..JPG
RB. Re..JPG
Grand prix reset re..JPG
G.P. r.b.u..JPG
GP Bonus reset 2.JPG
GP Bonus reset.JPG
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#1 6 years ago

10645130_10102567153021643_2220919192332481068_n.jpg

A Williams Grand Prix!

Spent most of the day cleaning it up, but its working 100%, EM's are a new world to me and Im having a blast playing this machine.

However Im in need of the spinner arm that goes from the spinner to the switch under the playfield, part #12A-6484 i believe, after checking the usual suspects I couldnt the specific part.

Also one of the drop targets is cracked, anybody sell old Williams drop targets?

Lastly, should my power cord have a ground connection? The end is a 3 prong, but there is no ground prong.

#2 6 years ago
Quoted from MagicMako:

However Im in need of the spinner arm that goes from the spinner to the switch under the playfield, part #12A-6484 i believe, after checking the usual suspects I couldnt the specific part.

Check with Steve at PBR (Pinball Resource)

Quoted from MagicMako:

Also one of the drop targets is cracked, anybody sell old Williams drop targets?

Yes, PBR part # W-3A743104518 $4.00ea

Quoted from MagicMako:

Lastly, should my power cord have a ground connection? The end is a 3 prong, but there is no ground prong.

Yes, PBR part # CORD-SET-14 $6.35ea

Ken

#3 6 years ago

Nice and shiny.
Beware Em s like to have company with other Em s...

#4 6 years ago

Thanks PINMAN, looks like ill be giving Steve a call

#5 6 years ago

For your EM's Steve is your best friend, sometimes even better than us here.

Have fun with it.

#6 6 years ago

Would you guys suggest rebuilding the flippers? The left side feels stronger than the right and sometimes the right flipper collapses a bit when im holding it up and the ball hits it while attempting to trap, or is that just par for the course?

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from MagicMako:

Would you guys suggest rebuilding the flippers? The left side feels stronger than the right and sometimes the right flipper collapses a bit when im holding it up and the ball hits it while attempting to trap, or is that just par for the course?

I always rebuild the Flippers as it is the main part of the game that can make it fun to play or a tedious affair playing it . 40+ years of abuse and use means worn parts unless it was previously restored. When I find that one Flipper Coil is weaker than the other (which happens a lot with me) I will replace both coils as well. PBR is your friend once again as they will have all the Williams Flipper parts you need.

Ken

#8 6 years ago

Excellent, was what I was hoping to hear, thanks again

#9 6 years ago

Replace the flipper EOS switches. You will love the difference.

#10 6 years ago

I agree with Ken, they probably do need re-built. rstrunks has a valid point also, the bouncing flipper when you catch the ball is more than likely a flaky or maladjusted E.O.S. switch.

#11 6 years ago

Alright, its my understanding I should have a good knowledge of what I need before contacting Steve.

I have a few questions,

Along with the broken spinner lever that I need the leaf switch underneath is pretty jacked up and warped, does anyone know the part # for this switch? I cant find it in any of the manuals. The good one on the other side appears to be slightly crimped over the lever after it is put through that tiny hole, not sure if they come like that.

20140825_135145.jpg

Does anyone know what this switch is supposed to do? Underneath the playfield everything looks fine with it, but the game does nothing when the ball rolls over it.

20140825_140709.jpg

Here's my broken target... are they available anywhere already riveted onto the rest of the assembly, or just the plastic part like PINMAN mentioned, http://www.pbresource.com/plastic/w-3a7431-4518.jpg

20140825_140719.jpg

Here are my coils,

Left
20140825_141338.jpg

Right20140825_141327.jpg

They are slightly different #'s, right is FL-20, left is FL-21, this would explain the one feeling stronger than the other I assume, also I saw nothing peculiar about the right flipper EOS switch, and the hardware in general looked pretty decent, do you think I should still rebuild the flippers, or should I just replace the right coil to a FL-21 so they both feel strong, FL-20 is stock for this machine btw.

Lastly, how difficult is replacing the power cord? I have done minor switch/coil/board work with success on my other machines, is replacing the power cord very dangerous at all? I appreciate any and all help guys.

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from MagicMako:

Here's my broken target... are they available anywhere already riveted onto the rest of the assembly, or just the plastic part like PINMAN mentioned, http://www.pbresource.com/plastic/w-3a7431-4518.jpg

Looks like no one carries an exact match of that Drop Target. The one I mentioned would have to be cut down so it could fit and won't have the Bulls eye on it either but a different pattern.

Maybe you could take a measurement of your current drop target and contact Marcos about this one as it may work, but it is a blank face.

http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-8750-2

Looks like some research on your part is needed.

You could also keep an eye on eBay for a used one and also put a call out for a part wanted:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-em-seeking-parts-thread/page/7#post-1857481

Ken

#13 6 years ago

Alright, thanks a lot Ken

#14 6 years ago

If you haven't read through this: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index1.htm#tools

Highly recommend - an invaluable resource and will give you a huge leg up in understanding the machine.

#15 6 years ago

Ordered all the parts I need from Steve at PBResource. So they are on their way.

I still dont know what the rollover switch on the top left of the playfield is supposed to do, mine is unresponsive, can any other Grand Prix owners tell me what that switch does? Does it score points (how many) or add to bonus (how much)?

#16 6 years ago

The mystery switch was covered in another thread at one time. I don't remember it's purpose and I can't find the thread now. I don't believe it had anything to do with scoring.

#17 6 years ago

ok thanks! I'll keep digging around.

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from MagicMako:

Ordered all the parts I need from Steve at PBResource. So they are on their way.
I still dont know what the rollover switch on the top left of the playfield is supposed to do, mine is unresponsive, can any other Grand Prix owners tell me what that switch does? Does it score points (how many) or add to bonus (how much)?

Steve has Williams drop target faces. Not with the bullseye, but something that you can make work.

I think I bought the last drop target that had the bullseye from him a couple of years ago when I was restoring a Triple Action.

#20 6 years ago

I remember that funny thread. ↑↑

#21 6 years ago

Got all the parts in and installed them over the weekend. Right spinner is back on workin great.

Sometimes the bonus does not reset on side that doesnt get collected at the start of the next ball, it doesnt happen very often but it does happen, what can I look into for this?

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from MagicMako:

Sometimes the bonus does not reset on side that doesnt get collected at the start of the next ball, it doesnt happen very often but it does happen, what can I look into for this?

Check the M&b at the outhole re.

GP Bonus reset.JPG
And the Scm 1D 2D.
GP Bonus reset 2.JPG
Gap & clean.

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from Pin-it:

Check the M&b at the outhole re.

Sorry noob question, what's m&b?

I checked the all the switches at the outhole relay and nothing looks fishy.

I did my best to clean the switches on the score motor.

I am still finding some consistent issues, without fail now, when the right bonus is Maxed at 50k and the right bonus is the side to NOT get collected at the end of the ball (only 1 side of bonus is collected on Grand Prix) the bonus resets to 30k or 35k for the next ball instead of 5k.

When left bonus is collected it sometimes skips a spot or two, this has happened both when the bonus was doubled and not doubled.

The top right drop target does not consistently score 1000pts as it should.

I've also had the right bonus collect saucer just go dead pretty much, the switch in the saucer will just go unresponsive, and then Ill play a bit and it'll start working again.

I've also noticed a relay in the coin door will activate sometimes when points are being scored or when bonus is being collected, should this be happening?

For now I'm just going to carefully clean as many contacts relating to those problems as I can while trying to not make anything worse as I've heard can happen often with EMs.

#24 6 years ago

m/b is a make/break switch. Long leaf in the middle, two shorter leafs on either side. One side is closed, the other side is open. And vice versa.

You sure picked a fun one to learn on. That might be the most complex EM ever made.

#25 6 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

m/b is a make/break switch

got it. thanks

Quoted from EMsInKC:

You sure picked a fun one to learn on. That might be the most complex EM ever made.

lol. oh geez, go figure.

#26 6 years ago

Got the new EOS switches in, flippers play great now, also replaced the power cord with no issues.

3 weeks later
#27 6 years ago

Any ideas about the bonus not resetting properly? So far Ive figured out the right bonus stepper unit rotates too far (or doesnt rotate properly) when the bonus is maxed at 50k, the ball ends, and right bonus resets to 30k, instead of 5k. Is this a coil stop issue? I noticed only one of the coils on the stepper unit has an adjustable coil stop, but when the right side bonus gets collected during a game or at the end of a ball, it always counts down correctly.

#28 6 years ago
Quoted from MagicMako:

So far Ive figured out the right bonus stepper unit rotates too far (or doesnt rotate properly) when the bonus is maxed at 50k,

Multiple issues require a complete comb through.
Sounds like a stepper issue,have you cleaned/ lubed the bonus units?
Max is 50k so that`s correct.
The right stepper bonus snip from the manual shows whats involved during reset and full reset sequence.
G.P. r.b.u..JPG
More explanation of it tells me D-15 on the schematic is where the location of the Right bonus relay resides and close by is the total reset coil which is the m29-1100 coil and the single step is the b1-26-800 coil
→ [ the snip post # 22 in this thread above]reset circuits.
The reset relay has control of both.
Grand prix reset re..JPG
The right bonus relay function.
RB. Re..JPG

Here is what you have for the unit type.
Reset units t.s.s..JPG

Either its a mechanical issue or the circuits contacts. I lean towards the mechanical end.
Clean &Lube→ which includes the stepper units spider fingers, rotating assembly, pivot points, and possibly new coil sleeves,but hard to tell without a first hand visual.

Quoted from MagicMako:

when the right side bonus gets collected during a game or at the end of a ball, it always counts down correctly.

So during play its fine? But the issue is on total reset if i understand you correctly? It all should be covered under what i have said above,this also pertains to the Left side Bonus unit too as one is in need of of it the other follows. Just do one at a time so the other can be used as reference.

#29 6 years ago

Well, if the right side goes too far and then doesn't reset all the way to zero (unless it is the selected bonus countdown), then it sounds to me like the logic only sends a maximum of X number of reset pulses (perhaps 10?) and if the Right unit is more than 10 away from getting to zero, it will just stop there.

Not sure about this one, but, usually, the way a stepper unit is limited to a max is by the manufacturer removing one tooth on the ratchet wheel. That way, more steps don't result in any forward motion of the stepper. It is always possible someone replaced either the stepper ratchet or the entire unit (minus the rivet biscuit) from some other game or function.

You might want to compare the physical characteristics of the Right Bonus stepper with the left. Including what it looks like when it IS sitting at physical zero. Or, post a side view of both sides of both units and perhaps someone here will see something out of place. There are some really "Sharp" eyes in this EM section!!!

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

You sure picked a fun one to learn on. That might be the most complex EM ever made.

Your not kidding.

#31 6 years ago

Oops, typing while Pin-it was posting!!!

Sounds like he hit it on the nail. If the unit has a "Total Reset" feature, then it is this coil - along with the torsion spring tension and the drag of the wiper fingers that would control the unit getting all the way back to 0 with only 1 pulse of the coils.

You may want to repeatedly max it out and watch it during outhole function and see if the pulse width of the reset coil is too short for it to allow it to go back to zero. Again, compare the action with the left unit since you say it works fine.

#32 6 years ago
Quoted from Pin-it:

So during play its fine? But the issue is on total reset if i understand you correctly? It all should be covered under what i have said above,this also pertains to the Left side Bonus unit too as one is in need of of it the other follows. Just do one at a time so the other can be used as reference.

I don't think so Pin-it. I think he explains that only one side is actually scored to the player (alternator Arrows???) at ball drain. Therefore, if it is selected to collect the left bonus, whatever the value is on the right bonus is supposed to be decremented (or total reset) to zero no matter what. When the function is done via the right bonus collect circuitry, it decrements fine down to zero.

But looking at the total reset coil snippet above, the total reset coil is only controlled by a set of contacts on the Reset relay. And, unless I am mistaken, that relay is only used at the start of a new game??? But that doesn't seem right. It would have been cheaper for WMS to monitor a "not at zero" leaf switch on each bonus unit instead of installing the total reset armature that lifts the anti-reverse lever and allows a decrement step to go free wheeling toward zero as long as the coils are held energized.

#33 6 years ago

What 10 steps CactusJack is referring to.

Game operation.JPG

#34 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

looking at the total reset coil snippet above, the total reset coil is only controlled by a set of contacts on the Reset relay.

Yes, thats this here.
Total reset.JPG

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Or, post a side view of both sides of both units and perhaps someone here will see something out of place. There are some really "Sharp" eyes in this EM section!!!

Thats the best thing to do↑ ↑ ,I just posted all the circuits to help eliminate any guess work he/we may have. Better than going back and forth on the manual/schematic.

#36 6 years ago

Going back to Pin-it's advice from 3 weeks ago.

After all selected bonus is collected, the Outhole relay is allowed to energize. This should energize BOTH left and right Total Reset relay armatures (the extra relay coils on the bonus stepper units). These do nothing other than to lift a single step rocker arm. It is the pulse of the bonus unit reset coil that completes the total reset action. These pulses come from Score Motor switch 1D (G / W-Blu) for Left bonus and 2D (G / Blu-O) for right bonus.

If the relay armature isn't energizing, or lifting the ratchet rocker arm then it will only get a single step down. If the armature is energizing, then it won't do anything if it doesn't get the pulse to the reset coil.

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from MagicMako:

When left bonus is collected it sometimes skips a spot or two, this has happened both when the bonus was doubled and not doubled.

Looks like the left has issues also.

#38 6 years ago
Quoted from Pin-it:

Looks like the left has issues also.

That might be a sticky anti-reverse ratchet lever. The same lever that the Total Reset Armature would lift. Maybe it is sticking, or maybe the total reset lever is not properly adjusted.

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/wmsbonus1.jpg

As to the Eject hole going dead, the eject hole bonus collect function is through a wiper on each of the bonus units. The wiper feeds the collect function on every position except zero. Once it gets to zero, it feeds the hole eject circuit. So dirty wipers/rivets will cause this problem. And, it could be related to one or only a few of the bonus positions while the other numbers may work fine. It would also be this if it starts to collect and then just stops at a particular number.

#39 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

So dirty wipers/rivets will cause this problem.

Yeah, i agree its jumpy operation sounds like a clean/lube is in order.
Maybe MagicMako can load some photos of the bonus units visual condition,plus seeing he just acquired this recently doesnt send confidence it was sold in working order by the previous owner.

#40 6 years ago

Guys, this could be as easy as the stepper being out of alignment.

Make sure the Bakelite square, as shown in the bonus unit diagram above, is aligned squarely with the metal frame.

As a new EM guy myself, I was trying all kinds of adjustments with the arms etc, when someone showed me this trick. If you are in under the pf, it is easy to knock these out of alignment and it will screw up your resets and scoring.

#41 6 years ago

Guys, thank you so much for all the feedback and advice, I have been busy with work the last few days so havent had a chance to get back at it yet, should be able to look at it tomorrow (later today)

#42 6 years ago

Alright, I took some video of each stepper when the ball drains and it is NOT the bonus that is collected, the ringing you hear is the other stepper counting down collecting it's bonus. You'll see the right stepper not reset all the way, and the left one resets fine. Im using my finger to activate the outhole switch so after the game counts everything down it keeps trying to reset cuz im still holding the outhole switch down, so disregard the single resets after the attempted full reset.

These videos are both taken when the bonus is maxed at 50k and does not get collected at the end of ball.

Left Stepper (working)

left stepper.jpg

Right Stepper (not resetting properly)

right stepper.jpg

You can see it only resets about half way.

If anyone would like to see a video of the other side of the unit during the reset operation I can try to get that as well.

My best guess right now is that the Escapement coil and the Reset coil arent working together properly during a full reset.

#43 6 years ago

Ok guys, a small breakthrough here, I noticed the escapement pawl was not completely clearing the teeth on the center wheel which may have been causing it to not reset all the way on a full reset, this is due to the brass wire form that's attached to the armature plate of the escapement coil not pressing the escapement pawl back enough during a reset (I hope you follow so far, im new to all this EM lingo). So what i did was remove the brass wire form and physically bend it a bit so that it would push the pawl out of the way enough on a full reset but not mess up the normal action of the reset coil.

So now the bonus is resetting properly! Well almost, so far after a few games the worst its done was reset to 10k instead of the normal 5k. Im assuming I should just adjust the brass wire form again just slightly?

#44 6 years ago

I own one of these and have done a complete mechanical rebuild and can offer a few observations-

It is the case that even in a completely shopped perfectly working stepper unit that occasionally the total reset coil will fire and the unit will fail to completely reset- its very occasional.

Three things can be adjusted that will effect this (at least)-

ALSO_ please note- during game play when the total reset coil fires and the end of stroke switch fires it activates a relay that should index the bonus up 1 position to 5K so you start at 5K for every ball- so its not supposed to go to a true zero for more then the length of time it takes the electronics to reset it from true zero to 5K. I believe that at the start of a new ball it may be zero but somehow cannot recall this (DOH. I have played this how many thousand times!!!).

(1)There is an end of travel switch that is closed when the bonus steppers reset to their zero position- make sure this switch is adjusted so that it does NOT close early-
This is the switch on the far right of your above pic that is contacted by the plastic end of the armature- (doubt this is your problem)

(2) The mechanism might be gunky or the total reset arm not fully engaging the mechanism (as you found)

(3) The wiper disc assembly has been over tightened and the brass contacts are slowing down the assembly or (same issue) the entire assembly has been over tightened and the movement of the brass gear is inhibited (could also be gunk).

(4)- bonus reason- Your stepper units have a brass screw with a square set washer (if its original- top right of your photo) that you can turn that will move the plastic armature and adjust its "at rest" position. If this is adjusted wrong the indexing of the end of the armature and the teeth on the gear will be wrong- it will advance and then sit either slightly pushing against the next step on the brass gear or there will be a gap (possibly large) between the end of the armature and the brass gear. This needs to be adjusted so that it cleanly indexes to the next position when you rapidly flip back on the coil assembly and most importantly so that as it comes back to rest- the end of the armature that contacts the advance teeth on the brass gear are nicely resting right on the gear- not with a big gap or holding it against spring tension.

(5) bonus reason #2-
This is one of the most complicated games ever made in the EM world- There are many many failure points. The bonus units your working on are the heart of the game and everything needs to be perfect- then it will play great.

With regard to the flippers-
YES_ Williams flippers when held open and then subsequently hit with a ball will ever so slightly come back contacting the EOS switch and activating the flip coil causing the ball to "bounce" off the flipper as it closes the switch- this is a fact of life for these ERA assemblies and there is nothing you can do to "fix" it because its not broken.
You CAN replace the mechanism with a different more modern design that "fixes" this

I suggest you leave it alone- thats actually not a very commonly used type of trap in this game and you will build an appreciation for these flippers if you play it a lot-

With regard to the spinner units-
A properly adjusted spinner unit on this game is capable of about 90 rotations with a seriously good hit-

Three things to ensure this-

The switch under the play field should be adjusted so that as the spinner comes through horizontal the contact BARELY touches- If your making firm contact your taking energy out of the spinner mechanically at every revolution.

The bend in the long contact is NORMAL- The arm going from there to the spinner should be straight and VERY LOOSE in its hole in the switch under the play field- it should DROP out without touching it if you remove the spinner assembly from the top-

The spinner itself should rotate freely and you need to be sure all the wire is perfectly aligned and the frame is not putting pressure on anything that moves

The arm from the spinner to the under play field switch should NEVER contact anything (like the wood of the play field)

Hope this helps-

#45 6 years ago

rufessor - glad to know you are around. I have one of these too and have learned a lot already. If this is the most complicated one out there, then MagicMaco and I should be an EM geniuses soon.

I had a similar issue with the swiper unit yesterday. Magi, if you haven't figured it out already - you adjust the brass wire can manually operate the reset coil and the advance coil at the same time to simulate a reset signal.

I was having an issue where sometimes the left bonus would advance twice. After fiddling around for a long time i determined the rubber on the left stand up was too tight and would close more than once. I evened out the rubber and adjusted the switch.

Now the only issue I have is the top kicker advances the bonus twice, for which either side is activated. This is consistent. I haven't dug into that one yet, but it is probably a switch adjustment too.

This is a very popular game in my basement.

#46 6 years ago

I will say this- I have had some amazingly odd behavior due to a stuck play field switch- Honestly I would start there if you have something scoring oddly-

Just look at every sling and bumper switch (especially the stacked switches) and be dead certain that there are NO stuck contacts. If that does not fix it- then we can check schematics... but this type of scoring issue on this game in my experience is likely (just playing percentages) to be a stuck switch. TRUST me- I have done this to my self a few times and its damn near impossible to figure out- so rule that our first- then its probably easy. I speak from hair pulling frustration- check the switches.

1 week later
#47 6 years ago

I'm having a few issues with my Grand Prix as well, so any of you GP experts that could chime in on this thread it would be greatly appreciated!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-tech-williams-grand-prix#post-1957978

#48 6 years ago

Post edited by SirScott: Wrong thread.

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