(Topic ID: 199197)

My Fireball Classic jumped time (Advice?)

By phil-lee

6 years ago


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  • 37 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by phil-lee
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 6 years ago

Machine boots and plays great. Only it won't advance to ball 2.
When the ball drops, game over flashes and another ball ejects.
Did I tell you the displays went crazy? Flashing wrong high score, segments missing, player 2 stays 00000 all the time.
High score also flashes at end of ball.
Boards have no alkali damage,but are original.
Wanting to play rather than repair right now(save the boards for later) could I just order replacement Alltek? Which boards do you feel I need?
Reading the Pinwiki now, but hoped someone may have had a similar problem and could help.
Cleaned the connectors on the MPU and Driver board, no change.

#2 6 years ago

I would say that you either have a faulty game eprom or prom OR a bad socket with a floating pin. Can you borrow an MPU from another game or a friend to confirm?

Or tone out the chips/sockets on your faulty MPU?

#3 6 years ago

No way to borrow one,and don't understand "Toning out". Mainly an EM guy. So you think the MPU is the main culprit?
I would order an Altek if it would fix the problem, I believe the EPROM is already programmed. Thanks!

#4 6 years ago

Toning out just means checking continuity with a meter. Some meters only have a display and some meters can buzz also. Are any chips socketed? Press/reseat any if they are.

#5 6 years ago

Thanks Travish. I want to learn SS repair but would like to do it at my leisure. Would really like this thing bulletproof for a Grandchild. I guess my question is, If I order an MPU should I get the package deal with the solenoid driver and lamp driver boards? I would really hate to make a mess of this virgin board, is there anyone you know of that could service it without taking Months?

#6 6 years ago

The suggestions so far suggest you could fix the problem by gently pressing on a few of the chips on the MPU. It would be hard to break anything this way. Yes- there is a potential you have some fairly easy soldering to do and if your not comfortable doing so repair would be an option.

As for wholesale purchase of new boards- go for it if you have neither the time nor inclination to attempt to troubleshoot/fix/have fixed the existing boards. However...

I would suggest that before you make the purchase you ask around of others more experienced than I- for the best boards to use. There are cases where new is not better. Would be good to know for this game where you sit before you commit to a random total board replacement. Just sayin- sounds like your rushing through this big time. Slow down and make a good decision.

#7 6 years ago

Thanks Rufessor. It seems there is a current shortage of ROM Techs out there, I sent an E-mail to Steve Kulpa before realizing he took a break from board repair.
I removed the MPU and examined it thoroughly. No repairs, no obvious burned components, pins look good. I tried pressing the "Chips" to no avail. I accept the original diagnosis from Syper2099 that the Program is corrupted. EVERYTHING else works perfect,could it be anything else?
I do not want to learn SS repair on this board. I do intend to learn SS repair.
So the "Ultimate" looks good, also with many glowing reviews from Pinside Members. I hate its down.

#8 6 years ago

Sounds like a ram problem. U8 probably

#9 6 years ago

Could battery/memory corruption have anything to do with it? The 6803 Repair Guide says to look for false settings and to set them to Factory Specs, would that be applicable here?
A faulty voltage from the solenoid driver board can cause the high-voltage Displays to act erratically, if I indeed have to order an MPU should I include the Solenoid Driver board as well?
Self-Test functions ( lamps, 7x led flashes,solenoid pull in,sound and Display count-down) all correct.

#10 6 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

The 6803 Repair Guide...

Fireball Classic is a 6802 based game, not 6803. They are different board sets.

Quoted from phil-lee:

A faulty voltage from the solenoid driver board can cause the high-voltage Displays to act erratically, if I indeed have to order an MPU should I include the Solenoid Driver board as well?

Incorrect numbers being displayed is a logic problem on/between the MPU board and the displays - don't waste your money replacing the Solenoid Driver Board.

The MPU board has two 40 pin "6821" chips at locations U16 and U17. Try swapping them and see if the behavior changes. Make sure you don't accidentally rotate the chips 180 degrees because that'll kill them.

Post clear pictures of your MPU board if you can/want.

#11 6 years ago

Thanks Quench, I'm ordering a couple to try, I've been studying chip removal. Its worth a try!IMG_1600 (resized).JPGIMG_1600 (resized).JPGIMG_1604 (resized).JPGIMG_1604 (resized).JPG

#12 6 years ago

Oh, you have the standard Bally 6800 based MPU board not the updated 6802 board that was released for Fireball Classic. Since you have the older MPU board the chip location numbers are different.

Sorry when I said to swap the 6821 chips, I didn't mean to replace them with new, rather take the chips out and put them in the alternate socket. So mark the 40 pin "MC6821P" chip at U10 with a "U10" sticker, and the 40 pin "MC6821P" chip at U11 with "U11".
With the machine OFF, carefully remove both these chips trying to avoid bending the pins.
Then install the 6821 chip you marked with U10 into the U11 socket and the chip marked U11 into the U10 socket taking care to make sure the pins are aligned in the socket so they don't accidentally bend at right angle. Oh and make sure they are oriented the original way (so the text on the chips is not upside down).

If the game behavior is now different then you know one of these chips is faulty.

#13 6 years ago

Quench,I have always appreciated your wisdom in past Posts, even more now. I was thinking about a special Chip Puller(guess I just want to buy something) but am usually careful so will go the small screwdriver.
As I understand it if I purchase new ones and install no jumpers will be necessary?
I will do this in the morning and report back,thanks.

#14 6 years ago

I prefer using a small flat screw driver to remove chips because you have full control when the chip finally comes out. And I do it little by little alternating each end to avoid bending pins.

You don't need to change any jumpers when replacing the 6821 chips

#15 6 years ago

I tried the switch, cleaned the pins lightly while out, no change. Worth a try though.

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

I tried the switch, cleaned the pins lightly while out, no change. Worth a try though.

Can I ask, did you buy the game with these issues or was everything working then suddenly these problems appeared?

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Machine boots and plays great. Only it won't advance to ball 2.
When the ball drops, game over flashes and another ball ejects.
Did I tell you the displays went crazy? Flashing wrong high score, segments missing, player 2 stays 00000 all the time.
High score also flashes at end of ball.
Boards have no alkali damage,but are original.
Wanting to play rather than repair right now(save the boards for later) could I just order replacement Alltek? Which boards do you feel I need?
Reading the Pinwiki now, but hoped someone may have had a similar problem and could help.
Cleaned the connectors on the MPU and Driver board, no change.

Check for a bent diode or torn fishpaper on the coin door. A switch shorted to ground on a Bally -35 will do all sorts of odd things like mess with the displays and lights. One way to test this is to start a game, and then remove the coin door connection all together. Just be careful as there is 48VDC on the plug for the coin lockout relay.

Jim

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Can I ask, did you buy the game with these issues or was everything working then suddenly these problems appeared?

The game was recently purchased and worked 100%. The problems suddenly appeared. I only changed the battery from the original, it worked fine after this change..

#19 6 years ago

Try the suggestion by Gott_Lieb above. It rings a bell with the zeros you're getting on player 2 display.

#20 6 years ago
Quoted from Gott_Lieb:

Check for a bent diode or torn fishpaper on the coin door. A switch shorted to ground on a Bally -35 will do all sorts of odd things like mess with the displays and lights. One way to test this is to start a game, and then remove the coin door connection all together. Just be careful as there is 48VDC on the plug for the coin lockout relay.

I disconnected the coin door,no change in malfunction. Self Test Switches does show Middle Coin Slot number stuck,but there is no middle coin slot,left and right coin slots work. I cannot clear this middle coin stuck switch since there is not one.
Jim

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

I disconnected the coin door,no change in malfunction. Self Test Switches does show Middle Coin Slot number stuck,but there is no middle coin slot,left and right coin slots work. I cannot clear this middle coin stuck switch since there is not one.

If you go to the switch test mode, then pull the J3 connector off the MPU board while the machine is ON, does the stuck switch number disappear? If not, then pull the J2 connector off the MPU board. Let us know what happens.

FYI, J3 is the cabinet switch harness to the MPU board, J2 is the playfield switch harness to the MPU board.

#22 6 years ago

When I pull J3 switch indicator changes to 28 Outhole switch. Inspected closely,noticed no problems,switch clicks when engaged freely. Tightened mounting bolt a little. When all balls removed switch test clears. Add a ball, 30 (outhole) then 29,then 28. No shorts or diode crossing evident.
When I pull J2, stuck switches clear. All performed during stuck switch test.

#23 6 years ago

Also, with J2 and J3 removed, displays still have missing digits, split digits, and Player 1 display has "7" and some zeroes.

#24 6 years ago

Can you post a picture showing the display problem?

#25 6 years ago

Charging camera battery.
(Player 4 Display is non-functional since I bought it,normal)
Turn on
1 zero in Player one
2 zero in Player 2
4 zeros in Player 3
Game Over light
High Score to date light
Player one goes to "7" and 1 zero when warm
High Score to Date flashes 6 million,then back to 7 and 2 zeroes in Player 1
High Score to date then flashes 7 million and 2 zeroes in Player 1
Start game
High score to date light stays on
player 3 has 4 zeroes
player 2 dark
Ball drains
Tilt flashes
Game over flashes
stays on ball one

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Charging camera battery.
(Player 4 Display is non-functional since I bought it,normal)
Turn on
1 zero in Player one
2 zero in Player 2
4 zeros in Player 3
Game Over light
High Score to date light
Player one goes to "7" and 1 zero when warm
High Score to Date flashes 6 million,then back to 7 and 2 zeroes in Player 1
High Score to date then flashes 7 million and 2 zeroes in Player 1
Start game
High score to date light stays on
player 3 has 4 zeroes
player 2 dark
Ball drains
Tilt flashes
Game over flashes
stays on ball one

Unplug the player 4 display! Sounds like it may be shorted. If your displays are not working properly, it makes using most of the test modes nearly impossible.

#27 6 years ago

Thanks Snyper,will do. All the displays count out fine in test mode which makes this a mystery. I realize my lack of skill with a meter will keep further diagnosis difficult. Until I learn I might as well buy a set of Allteks. "Where I sit with this machine" as Ruffesser asked is it is my grail and intend to pass it on to my Daughter who grew up playing one like it. I just like it ,so might as well get it close to bulletproof as possible.
Still open to suggestions though, I intend to get this board right,one way or the other. Thanks Quench and everyone for the knowledge!

#28 6 years ago

You certainly have some weird things going on. I'm not really seeing a pattern yet.
We still have the issue that the game is detecting a shorted/closed coin switch - this will mess with your switch matrix. Can you post some clear pictures inside the coin door where the coin switches/wiring is?

In lamp test mode, are the displays doing anything unusual?
In display test mode are the lamps doing anything unusual?

Do you have a multimeter? If yes, let's see if your MPU board is getting good voltages:
Switch the multimeter to DC voltage mode. Put the black meter lead at ground on "TP4" (top right) of the MPU board, and measure the voltages with the red meter lead at test points TP1, TP2, TP3, and TP5 on the MPU board - report the readings.

Can you try one more thing. With the machine OFF, disconnect the MPU board batteries.
Slowly remove the RAM chip at U8, take note if there's any corrosion/tarnish in the chip socket. Re-install the U8 RAM chip and reconnect the batteries. Any difference in behavior after you switch the machine ON?

#29 6 years ago

Snyper, display 4 unplugged, no change
In lamp test and display test displays and lamps correct.
It will be Saturday before I have a multimeter, I intend to check these points and will report progress.
Same with the RAM technique, thanks for that one.
IMG_1605 (resized).JPGIMG_1605 (resized).JPGIMG_1606 (resized).JPGIMG_1606 (resized).JPGIMG_1607 (resized).JPGIMG_1607 (resized).JPG

#30 6 years ago

Thanks for the pics. It looks like that coin chute which is closer to the start button has the switch incorrectly wired. From the pics it looks like there's three different colored wires going to that switch: a Blue wire, a Red/Green wire and a Red/White wire. Can you confirm?

The Blue wire is intended for the "middle coin chute" so it shouldn't be on that switch.

#31 6 years ago

Quench,I finally got a Meter so going to catch up per your instructions by Saturday, I will report back then. I appreciate your help a lot.

#32 6 years ago

Cut the blue wire to the coin chute.
Removed U8 chip, lightly cleaned and re-seated.
No real differences, ball doesn't advance, game over flashes when ball goes down, displays erratic.
I received Alltek MPU and SDB.
Should I try them? Or could this be a voltage issue that could fry the new boards?
Not giving up on the old board yet, the multi-meter I have is confusing but all test points showed voltage. I just need to get the correct meter and match the voltage to the Bally Specs from the manual.

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

I received Alltek MPU and SDB.
Should I try them? Or could this be a voltage issue that could fry the new boards?

You want to first check that the rectifier board (bottom of the cabinet) is putting out voltages within spec.
How you set your multimeter to measure voltages at these test points depends on the meter you have. Can you post a picture of your multimeter?

Essentially, the diagram below shows the rectifier board test point locations and their voltages on the right side from the schematics:
Test Point 4 (TP4) requires you to set the multimeter to read AC voltage. All other test points require the multimeter to be set to DC voltage. Note TP2 is high voltage and may need to be set accordingly on your meter to read it depending on the meter you have.

PowerRectifier-54.jpgPowerRectifier-54.jpg

#34 6 years ago

These voltages are correct, or close since this pos toy meter I have may not be the best. It is a shame when I install the new boards I won't know what was causing this weirdness. If I install the new boards and nothing changes I'm calling Rod Serling.

#35 6 years ago

It's probably worth checking if the current Solenoid Driver Board is providing the proper voltage to the MPU board for your own sanity.

The following test points are top right of the SDB next to the J3 connector. There should also be a test point marked GND on the SDB which you can use to connect the black meter lead to.
TP5 on the SDB should measure the same as TP3 on the rectifier board (around 11.9 volts).
TP1 on the SDB should measure 5 volts - will probably be as high as 5.2 volts. If you're getting less than 5 volts it might be an issue.

TP5 on the MPU board should measure 5 volts too (same as what you measure at TP1 on the SDB)

You can check the other voltages as per the schematic, but they won't affect the unusual game play conditions you're seeing.

On installing the new boards, I would first replace the SDB so you should have good voltages being output. Then try replacing the MPU board.

Let us know how you go.

SDB_LogicPower1.jpgSDB_LogicPower1.jpg

#36 6 years ago

I felt something "Click" this weekend, your encouragement had a lot to do with it. Just like EM, I'm beginning to understand SS.
I installed the new boards (Alltek mpu and sdb) and the machine is right. For a Player the expense is worth it if the play stays dependable.
I purchased a used De-solder/ solder station Friday, and will order new rom along with the parts I need to return the original board back to snuff.
Now, Alltek says if the SDB is replaced at the same time as the MPU the voltage issue is not a problem. I intend to play the snot out of it tomorrow night as I only checked it out with one game after the repair.
I remember in the 70's Operators would yank out boards and replace them in a heartbeat to get a game up. The old boards were returned to the shop for repair.
Boards are much more expensive now but swapping them out was a proper procedure.
Again, many thanks Quench with your help, and let me know if I can help you. Until then,lets mark this one
RESOLVED ( I will Post a few pictures tomorrow)

3 months later
#37 6 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

The game was recently purchased and worked 100%. The problems suddenly appeared. I only changed the battery from the original, it worked fine after this change..

Just to add clarity to the reason for this mysterious behavior.
If you look at this photo its hard to tell but the left bottom ground screw is missing. The night before any problems began I had placed a 1/4 inch temporary back leg lift ( a board) under the rear legs to increase play speed. It jacked the head just enough to create intermittent ground at this corner of the MPU.
No problems now with the Altek but didn't need to replace the original.
IMG_1542 (resized).JPGIMG_1542 (resized).JPG
Sometimes the simple things get you. (This is an earlier picture showing the original battery, which of course has been removed).

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