(Topic ID: 239358)

My current take on JJP pinball after TPF....


By iceman44

81 days ago



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  • Latest reply 73 days ago by Lamprey
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    There are 602 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 13.
    #1 81 days ago

    1) That reveal was 100% about raising $$$ to put down on getting Wonka started. Do the math. 200 games x $10k net = $2 million. The "investors" said go raise the up front $$ yourself buddy. Hence, the YBR absolute F ing disaster and JOKE

    2) Jack actually said that "we may do more than 200 later but it won't be more than......."

    3) Jack had destroyed the "collectibility" of any JJP game.

    4) The RUSH to buy Potc late is totally manufactured BS. Sales were crap until there was a "last call" announcement. Again, "hey guys, I've got a few pins outside in the trunk, let me show them to you"

    5) After TPF, like everything else with JJP to extract every dime possible, there will be a BLACK PEARL EDITION coming next year. How do we know this? LOL

    6) Yeah I'm thinking Disney doesn't give a F about how many games POTC sold, its a shit franchise now, and any FUTURE games make sense so Jack can make them for let's say another 3 yrs. It's what he does.

    7) Disney is also Toy Story, enough said about the relationship thus far. POTC was a dismal seller from a licensing standpoint. DI or WOZ, who cares?

    Bottom line, Jack lies when the truth would sound better. And now I'm probably gonna roll over my $$$ from POTCCE because, once again, its delayed, AND in Jack style, we know its coming again in another re skinned version.

    #BLACK PEARL

    #2 81 days ago

    Are you rolling it over to Alien CGC? haha!

    -2
    #3 81 days ago
    Quoted from delt31:

    Are you rolling it over to Alien CGC? haha!

    No I have my Alien Delt. Have you received yours yet?

    Watch it happen, haha!

    Tick tock

    #4 81 days ago

    Screw collectibility. If jack can make money and jjp continues to thrive and produce games then we should all be so grateful to have so many options

    #5 81 days ago

    I like Santa (resized).png

    23
    #6 81 days ago
    Quoted from lancestorm:Screw collectibility. If jack can make money and jjp continues to thrive and produce games then we should all be so grateful to have so many options

    That's fine, but he shouldn't be selling as collectible. Or "limited".. that's bs.

    -19
    #7 81 days ago
    Quoted from lancestorm:

    Screw collectibility. If jack can make money and jjp continues to thrive and produce games then we should all be so grateful to have so many options

    That might be one of the dumbest things i've ever heard from a long term business perspective!

    We do have a lot of dumbasses in this hobby though.

    If you have been around long enough you KNOW what the reality is.

    #8 81 days ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    No I have my Alien Delt. Have you received yours yet?
    Watch it happen, haha!
    Tick tock

    A week or so away. Super excited for the best to return.

    #9 81 days ago
    Quoted from delt31:

    A week or so away. Super excited for the best to return.

    Congrats dude! It is one of the best pins ever!

    13
    #10 81 days ago

    Once upon a time Ice was a huge JJP fanboy

    He chose the red pill. Look at him now.

    #11 81 days ago
    Quoted from PW79:

    Once upon a time Ice was a huge JJP fanboy
    He chose the red pill. Look at him now.

    No shit Curly. It's love/hate? I was the #1 kool aid drinker back in the "old days" as you know.

    And yet here we are today. Same old F ing BS.

    Can't count on a thing with JJP.

    History continues to repeat itself

    11
    #12 81 days ago

    I just think the company decisions as a whole for game choices are questionable and are the reason for their suffering (sans dialed in because its lawlor, original and great, therefore spared) Who is making these decisions? Woz (outdated but nostalgic enough) Hobbit (outdated doa) more Woz (we need cash) , Potc (outdated doa) more Woz (we need cash) Wonka? (Hopefully will be made and great) Toy story? (outdated doa) probably followed by a different CE of Wonka because they'll need more money. They're in a bad cycle and wasting time, like dating an ex over and over. They need to regroup, change course and catch up. I hate to say it because I love the build quality and completeness of JJP machines but Stern's pace is killing them. Gary is literally trying to bury them with releases and I think it's working. Its a shame really. Show some mercy so we can continue to have variety please.

    #13 81 days ago

    So...what is your take exactly?

    #14 81 days ago

    One thing I am NOT - and that is a JJP Fanboy!

    #15 81 days ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    So...what is your take exactly?

    See above.

    Wash, rinse and repeat with Jack 8 years later

    #16 81 days ago

    I agree with iceman.

    #17 81 days ago
    Quoted from Tommy-dog:

    I agree with iceman.

    Thank you T Dog!

    10
    #18 81 days ago

    I'm honestly worried. I think YBR @11.5k was a last cash grab ordered by the "angels".

    #19 81 days ago
    Quoted from dannylite:

    I'm honestly worried. I think YBR @11.5k was a last cash grab ordered by the "angels".

    Possibly, or they had a 30 day opening on the line with no parts to build any other game decided to just run WOZ again?

    #20 81 days ago

    Yawn... icemans on again off again love affair with JJP.
    1. 200 x $10k net bla bla bla.... no, it’s about loosing money genius
    2. If they sell then more power to him
    3. Jacks doing what’s best for JJP, not iceman
    4. Hey man you want some new speakers?
    5. We know because of your crystal ball says so
    6 & 7. Just diarrhea of the mouth
    8. Sounds like buyers remorse to me

    #21 81 days ago
    Quoted from Yelobird:

    Possibly, or they had a 30 day opening on the line with no parts to build any other game decided to just run WOZ again?

    True but it's not like they just busted out a yelo spray can.

    37
    #22 81 days ago

    I’m holding out for the Cowardly Lion edition with furry armor.

    #23 81 days ago
    Quoted from yancy:

    I’m holding out for the Cowardly Lion edition with furry armor.

    And buy a wagging tail from The Mod Couple

    #24 81 days ago
    Quoted from Spiderpin:

    And buy a wagging tail from The Mod Couple

    That’s funny, I love JJP,s build quality but I do agree that something new is due.

    #25 81 days ago

    I can't imagine how many directions Jack is pulled in. I think he mentioned the "I started this when I was 18.." "joke" which clearly describes how demanding all of this is on him.

    He could certainly ease that, by creating new positions within the company, but at the same time this is still largely his product, and for that I'm more grateful than not. I just want JJP to continue to exist, if not thrive. The style of what they do is presently unlike any other manufacturer, and none are perfect.

    Your thread sounds born more of frustration and disappointment, than of not enjoying their games.

    31
    #26 81 days ago

    Let's face it LE just means nothing in this hobby anymore in terms of collectability.

    If it's the game you like, then great, but don't buy expecting the term LE means anything anymore.

    Especially JJP games.

    #27 81 days ago

    If Pirates does come back, and I don't think it will, I would expect an $11,500+ version a year or two from now.

    JJP wants to move onto games #5, #6 and all future games. If they want to get 2 games out per year then something had to give and it was Pirates.

    JJP screwed up with YBR. I think everyone was expecting an ultimate WOZ edition that was to actually be limited to 200 games. Instead features were stripped and the game isn't limited at all. JJP should have charged $12k+ for the game, included the monkey mech, a mirrored backglass, a better topper, and actually limited it to 200 games. That would sell better then what was shown.

    #28 81 days ago

    If they wanted to keep the small line busy in April and May why not plan another 160 Pirates into the initial run? Was their market forecast suggesting Pirates would be that big a dud? Maybe so. I don’t think YBR was a last second stop gap, I think they wanted to test the successful Stern model; de-content and raise prices.

    Wonder what/if they’ll take out of Pirates to reach that $11,500 price point on a re-run? I supposed they could turn the chest into static toy that was just a virtual lock.

    #29 81 days ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    If Pirates does come back, and I don't think it will, I would expect an $11,500+ version a year or two from now.
    JJP wants to move onto games #5, #6 and all future games. If they want to get 2 games out per year then something had to give and it was Pirates.
    JJP screwed up with YBR. I think everyone was expecting an ultimate WOZ edition that was to actually be limited to 200 games. Instead features were stripped and the game isn't limited at all. JJP should have charged $12k+ for the game, included the monkey mech, a mirrored backglass, a better topper, and actually limited it to 200 games. That would sell better then what was shown.

    In all fairness and sincerity, they just seem lost.

    It’s quite a shame.

    #30 81 days ago
    Quoted from Yelobird:

    Possibly, or they had a 30 day opening on the line with no parts to build any other game decided to just run WOZ again?

    That does not explain the price

    26
    #31 81 days ago

    As much as I want JJP to succeed I am also over all of this overpriced bull shit. I thought when Jack introduced Ruby Red editions-while people were still waiting for their Emerald editions that was a super tacky move and basically bastardized the whole 'LE' concept. Jack is all about the money-I wish him luck but I think an $11,500 rehashed WOZ is a slap in the face(makes me think they are desperate and not a company I want to support).

    36
    #32 81 days ago

    Been a while since I've been on pinside. I did see the yellow brick money grab on facebook though.

    I hope I'm wrong because I like their games but JJP seems to be in big trouble. I would bet that each title released has sold less then the last one. When you have decreasing sales on every title you have decreasing profits and increasing production costs. Add in that they simply cannot get games made in anything that resembles a timely fashion and the issue looks even worse. Their inability to keep games being made leads to constantly having a new work force which then creates QC isssues and lots of added expenses.

    They stopped making POTC because they are not making money at it. They would sell them until the end of time if they were making profit. How at this point can they not know how to design and price a game?

    An 11.5K WOZ that looks like a banana is a complete joke and an insult to their customer base. The sparkly play field is cool. It certainly did not cost them much more though so use that as a selling point at the same price a the RR of 9.5K instead of just trying to find 200 suckers. They look as stupid as Dutch did with BOP 3.0 on this announcement.

    WOZ has been a really great game that somehow went from $6500 to $11500 since it started. TH was a step down even though the code is good. DI was a bizarre choice that jack should have never allowed to happen. It's a very good base game but for some reason they thought combining Bob the builder and SIM City would really resonate with 35+ year olds with money? They should retheme this one and get some of their development cost back. POTC is a good base game with another bad stale theme and bloated price point.

    So if JJP can't make a profitable game at $9500 what is the next title going to cost? They have already greatly shrunk their market with this current pricing. Do they remove the features that guys like Panzer gush about to make building them easier and cheaper and try to lower the price? Or do they do what we all expect them to do and come in at 10K+ for the next title? I'm not sure what the answer is but I hope they figure it out.

    #33 81 days ago

    My takeaways are this:

    1. I don't know who he is targeting with this YBR WOZ. It's not his normal customer base - the price is too high. So, why abandon or disenfranchise his normal customer base? There are a lot more people who have gotten into pinball over the past year or so, and who have bought JJP games but that price is insane. But - maybe we are looking at this the wrong way. (see below)

    2. On that note - Let's talk about the POTC CE's lying around, 200 made and $12.5k price point (also too high), and still not sold out. If they had, I guarantee you this YBR would have been $12.5k. So, part of me thinks $11.5k YBR is testing the "collector's edition" price point of $11.5k. IMO - swing and a miss. I hope that they don't sell all 200 of the YBRs, so that the market shows the price point is too high and that JJP has to adjust down.

    3. I hope this is not a prelude to a price increase for WW over what POTC cost. A $9k+ Standard? $10k+ LE?

    4. Prices should be going down not up. JJP as a company should be learning how to become more efficient in all aspects from design to parts sourcing to assembly. This drives costs down. If we look at this from a "JJP CE" point of view, YBR could be considered a price drop. (monkey aside) POTC CE was $12.5k and YBR "CE" is $11.5k. We all know that the original price of WOZ was at a loss to JJP. This is why the RR sells for $9500 - it's their "LE". So look at YBR as a "CE". Jack could have done himself a large favor by calling YBR a CE and not an LE.

    18
    #34 81 days ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    That might be one of the dumbest things i've ever heard from a long term business perspective!
    We do have a lot of dumbasses in this hobby though.
    If you have been around long enough you KNOW what the reality is.

    Given the history of JJP, if you are buying a machine for collectability then that is probably a bad idea. I don't know about most of the people in the hobby, but I'm buying to play the damn thing. The only reason to get an LE will be what toys / extras are involved, not because it is 1 of only X made because again, JJP history, that doesn't mean squat.

    Long term JJP is fine. They produce high quality games and are a healthy alternative for others that are not Stern fans.

    #35 81 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    My takeaways are this:
    1. I don't know who he is targeting with this YBR WOZ. It's not his normal customer base - the price is too high. So, why abandon or disenfranchise his normal customer base? There are a lot more people who have gotten into pinball over the past year or so, and who have bought JJP games but that price is insane. But - maybe we are looking at this the wrong way. (see below)

    Stern produced Batman 66 and Beatles at far higher price, not their normal customer base. Does that disenfranchise or abandon normal customer base?

    #36 81 days ago
    Quoted from lancestorm:

    Stern produced Batman 66 and Beatles at far higher price, not their normal customer base. Does that disenfranchise or abandon normal customer base?

    Beatles is an exception to the rule - it's the beatles. Batman 66 I think was overpriced too.

    46
    #37 81 days ago

    I'm in the minority in this thread I guess. I too was puzzled by the higher price and reduced features on the YBR. However, overall I am very impressed with JJP. I currently own DI (it is for sale) and TH and really couldn't be happier with them. I owned a woz, but gameplay wasn't for me so I sold it. They play and are built so much better than recent stern games. I put down a deposit on a potc LE on Sunday following the Texas show. Eric did a great job and the game is packed.

    These are not investments. You buy a game because you like it and the company that sells them. ( I like Stern too, as well as CGC and the others.) If price falls, I don't care, I get enjoyment from it.

    Jjp is a business and they are doing what they need to do. I wish prices would be lower too, we all do, but nobody has any insight into their finances or strategy, it's just pure speculation, which is what we like to do on pinside.

    I do worry about some of these price levels as the audience for the games shrinks, putting the experience of these great games further away from the masses, which I consider opposite of what the industry should be striving for.

    #38 81 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    4. Prices should be going down not up. JJP as a company should be learning how to become more efficient in all aspects from design to parts sourcing to assembly. This drives costs down. If we look at this from a "JJP CE" point of view, YBR could be considered a price drop. (monkey aside) POTC CE was $12.5k and YBR "CE" is $11.5k. We all know that the original price of WOZ was at a loss to JJP. This is why the RR sells for $9500 - it's their "LE". So look at YBR as a "CE". Jack could have done himself a large favor by calling YBR a CE and not an LE.

    Very, very rarely would you ever see a company lower prices simply because things are cheaper to make. That's not how business works. Greater efficiency and cost reduction = more profit, not = reduce prices.

    #39 81 days ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    Let's face it LE just means nothing in this hobby anymore in terms of collectability.
    If it's the game you like, then great, but don't buy expecting the term LE means anything anymore.
    Especially JJP games.

    Your first line puts EVERYTHING in perspective. Bravo Sir......Bravo!

    I learned that in EVERY hobby I ever got into. Limited edition, First time ever, small run, fan's choice, etc. means nothing after awhile because the company will make them again if money is to be made.

    #40 81 days ago
    Quoted from Eryeal:

    Very, very rarely would you ever see a company lower prices simply because things are cheaper to make. That's not how business works. Greater efficiency and cost reduction = more profit, not = reduce prices.

    Yes and no. JJP has to compete in the market. Competition generally drives prices down. At worst prices should remain the same. CGC however, did lower prices.

    #41 81 days ago

    I simply don’t think it’s as dire or nefarious as some people are making it out to be. Why would they order more POTC parts if they were starting on a totally new game? My thought is, they probably have a small gap between POTC (seems like they ran out of parts) and starting on the next game. JJP has repeatedly said they want to do two games a year, and timeline wise it appears that’s what’s happening here. Keep in mind, POTC has been running since roughly July. Plus, my business partner had talked to JJP over the summer about buying a WOZ, and he was told then they would have some WOZRR around the beginning of the year. That’s obviously turned into the YBR edition, but if they were telling people over the summer about WOZ, it doesn’t seem that crazy to do a higher priced special edition. I don’t care when stern does it, and I don’t care when JJP does it. Am I a buyer at some of these CE/SLE price points? No, But there is a segment of the market who is and I’m happy for them to get what they want. Some people have said for years that JJP is on its dying breath, and blah blah blah... But the games are seemingly coming quicker and quicker, and It doesn’t seem like the sky is falling like some are suggesting. Only time will tell, but I’ll keep enjoying my JJP games just like I do my stern and CGC and excited to see what they all come out with next.

    11
    #42 81 days ago

    I am really tired of talking about it, but if JJP cannot get their volume/production speed up to give them the ability to make their prices more reasonable then they are screwed as a company because there just are not enough buyers at $9000 and above. Stern is well aware of that fact and that is why they have Premiums and Pros.

    18
    #43 81 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    Yes and no. JJP has to compete in the market. Competition generally drives prices down. At worst prices should remain the same. CGC however, did lower prices.

    Because of the price CGC has turned into Sterns biggest competitor

    #44 81 days ago

    i’ll never understand how anyone can fault a business for trying to make more money. screw the collectibility. we are buying high-end children’s games, because we love them and enjoy them. if you’re in the hobby because you look at it as an investment, try the stock market. 10+ years ago, there was barely such a thing as limited editions. be grateful that the dying hobby we all stayed loyal to, is now bigger and badder than ever!

    21
    #45 81 days ago

    I've enjoyed every JJP game I've played on location and every game they've produced is remarkable in it's design and construction. But you can't dilly dally around when making pinball games - every single day you're haemorrhaging vast amounts of money. They need to be made quickly and often, which is the only way to succeed in the long term.

    When I started at Heighway Pinball in 2013, Stern had just released Star Trek. In the time it took us to get Full Throttle into production, Stern had released 5 more games. When Full Throttle did finally sell, we only shifted about 100 units. At this point the company was heavily in debt and there was no way back.

    Make 'em quick and make 'em often, it's the only way.

    #46 81 days ago
    Quoted from bigehrl:

    i’ll never understand how anyone can fault a business for trying to make more money. screw the collectibility. we are buying high-end children’s games, because we love them and enjoy them. if you’re in the hobby because you look at it as an investment, try the stock market. 10+ years ago, there was barely such a thing as limited editions. be grateful that the dying hobby we all stayed loyal to, is now bigger and badder than ever!

    That's a false dichotomy. No one here is trying to fault a business for trying to make more money. What we are faulting them for is that they removed a key mech that made the game what it is, added some cosmetics, made the game fall inline with current games in terms of manufacturing, and charged $2k more.

    -1
    #47 81 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    That's a false dichotomy. No one here is trying to fault a business for trying to make more money. What we are faulting them for is that they removed a key mech that made the game what it is, added some cosmetics, made the game fall inline with current games in terms of manufacturing, and charged $2k more.

    and if you don’t buy it, how does that impact you?

    #48 81 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    That's a false dichotomy. No one here is trying to fault a business for trying to make more money. What we are faulting them for is that they removed a key mech that made the game what it is, added some cosmetics, made the game fall inline with current games in terms of manufacturing, and charged $2k more.

    and actually, the original post is exactly faulting the company for trying to make more money. as well as many other posts in this thread

    #49 81 days ago

    I’m not a believer in “the sky is falling” for jjp. I think they’re trying to do what Jack has always done...put some new colors on a game (and some sparkles on the playfield) and up the price to sell it. Give the illusion of it being limited, and people will get the feeling of “oh man, I need this before they run out”. The only outlier in this is taking the monkey out of the game...honestly, that mech was a huge draw for me when I first saw the game...so that’s a shame to see that go, especially while upping the price.
    However, I really think that WW is going to be their biggest hit since WoZ as long as the YBR’s 11.5k isn’t a new LE baseline for them. This theme will tug on a few heartstrings via nostalgia, won’t feel like a revisit of old themes (aka Hobbit/LOTR and JJPOTC/stern’s), and won’t be as ill-recieved as DI. It has all the makings of it being a hit with Lawlor at the helm...and I’m expecting to see the ybr’s “sparkle technology” in the playfield in at least one of the models...I just hope it’s not at an unobtainable pricepoint.

    #50 81 days ago

    Looking at this another way... Say JJP went the other way and instead of raising the price on WOZ, the cut the price to say $7500 and removed features; would they be able to produce a larger number of games (say 1000) in an efficient and timely manner? If Willy Wonka is a smash hit and there's demand for 5000 pins would the factory be able to scale up and handle that? My thoughts are that part of the reason they charge so much is that they aren't efficient enough and aren't prepared to handle the kind of demand for games that Stern gets. Instead they build pins at a slow/medium pace and charge a premium to help cover for their inefficiencies.

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