Quoted from spinal:

Your post has no relationship with the actual event.

Quoted from Bublehead:

Touche, I did not go to YBR reveal but my reasoning was forthought, not afterthought. I knew it was going to be YBR, I knew it was going to be too high priced for my interests, and I am not hanging on to every word Jack says to try and determine anything from it as far as JJP is concerned. Anything he could say at that event would not make it cost less, make the theme more interesting, or the game more intriguing, especially since people were expecting it to have mechs removed (to cut costs obviously) so why would I go? I posted because I thought JJP did exactly what I expected JJP to do, do what it needs to survive, but shoot itself in the foot doing it. So to me they are hitting it out of the park on second missteps, ergo my post. If that is not on topic, what is?

Quoted from YZRider926:

I don’t really care what they make and how much they sell for.

Quoted from spinal:

Bublehead, I'm referring to 'don't care' quote above not your post. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Quoted from ataritoday:

My theory....
The launch price of WOZ was probably too low, but helped fund the start up of the company.... not a sustainable price. We have also heard that distributors have smaller margins on JJP pins, if true, supports there is pressure on gross profit / income margins.
But once that price is out there, you have something that people anchor too.... and are left with two choices....
1. scale back features of future games, keep price relatively flat and go head 2 head with Stern. not a fun choice. and not what they set up to be..
2. start taking price as you launch new games and editions.... they took this path.
The other challenge JJP has is volume. Fixed costs is a real thing, they have a building, they have workers, they have taxes, utlilities, etc.... So IF volume has been declining.... cost per unit game produced go up.... once again, more pressure on cost, thus need more price.
POTC stopping production this quickly.....
- maybe it is simply costing more to make then they realized... and thus not anxious to keep it on the line.... (this should not be the case though, forecasting COGS, bill of materials, labor, overhead, etc.... is really important to get right).
- maybe as everyone has said the demand just was not as big as they had hoped... and they have some juggernaut titles ready to go, so why not shift gears.....they can always come back to POTC (maybe it gets to a cult status and they bring it back next year).
Why YBR:
- my guess is that their is more demand for the game.... I can imagine that new people/families coming into the hobby not knowing much and that WOZ is a really attractive game. So I think it is aimed at new people coming into the hobby. Why the price ? Allows distributors to get more margin and for JJP to get more margin, and they are probably testing the price point to see if it still moves...
- why the monkey mech got removed, I dont know.... especially given the price increase.... I was guessing maybe the source for that part was no longer around and they had a choice to re-engineer and find a new supplier or do something simpler.... and they took simpler.
In regards to the collectors and limited editions, I am not that person... but I can definitely see why folks who are into that get upset... to me it looks like JJP will continue to do multiple limited runs/versions of games.
Although I don't like to see price increases JJP needs a business model that will work.... lets say for a second that they need to improve financials:
1. Increase sales volume: quickly move to your believed juggernaut titles (WW, toy story, etc...). This they are doing.
2. Increase volume: Make the product more differentiated, I don't think they need to do this, they are already top tier by a long shot on features.
3. Find a way to maintain product features and reduce costs/price eventually... easier said then done given they are probably swamped trying to get the pins out. The key would be to figure out what is must have vs. what is nice to have.... and cut nice to have (keeping the customer at the front here).
Wishing JJP the best, Dialed In on my radar for a pin I really want. My kids love it and I think it is really fun. I also really enjoy WOZ. Pricing of new pins is a bit much for me.... but hey, I'm not everyone so JJP needs to see if it can find its portion of the market and make it work.

Quoted from DBLM:

This is how I imagine Dr Frightner is when he logs into Pinside
[quoted image]

Quoted from JY64:

If $9500 is not profitable stick a fork in them they are done

Quoted from meSz:

Agree, he states he can back everything up "110%" so please do so as if this can't be backed up then everything else stated is subjective!

No need to call the guy names. Maybe what he's saying is fact but again we don't know this. A lot of stuff on Pinside is people giving opinions. DR is stating he can back everything up so lets see if it's true!

Quoted from MK6PIN:

I think (don't read the entirety of any of those posts) he was targeting "x" amount of downvotes.....so maybe he IS winning (what he's winning I'm unclear of)
Crazy stuff...

Quoted from ataritoday:

My theory....
The launch price of WOZ was probably too low, but helped fund the start up of the company.... not a sustainable price. We have also heard that distributors have smaller margins on JJP pins, if true, supports there is pressure on gross profit / income margins.
But once that price is out there, you have something that people anchor too.... and are left with two choices....
1. scale back features of future games, keep price relatively flat and go head 2 head with Stern. not a fun choice. and not what they set up to be..
2. start taking price as you launch new games and editions.... they took this path.
The other challenge JJP has is volume. Fixed costs is a real thing, they have a building, they have workers, they have taxes, utlilities, etc.... So IF volume has been declining.... cost per unit game produced go up.... once again, more pressure on cost, thus need more price.
POTC stopping production this quickly.....
- maybe it is simply costing more to make then they realized... and thus not anxious to keep it on the line.... (this should not be the case though, forecasting COGS, bill of materials, labor, overhead, etc.... is really important to get right).
- maybe as everyone has said the demand just was not as big as they had hoped... and they have some juggernaut titles ready to go, so why not shift gears.....they can always come back to POTC (maybe it gets to a cult status and they bring it back next year).
Why YBR:
- my guess is that their is more demand for the game.... I can imagine that new people/families coming into the hobby not knowing much and that WOZ is a really attractive game. So I think it is aimed at new people coming into the hobby. Why the price ? Allows distributors to get more margin and for JJP to get more margin, and they are probably testing the price point to see if it still moves...
- why the monkey mech got removed, I dont know.... especially given the price increase.... I was guessing maybe the source for that part was no longer around and they had a choice to re-engineer and find a new supplier or do something simpler.... and they took simpler.
In regards to the collectors and limited editions, I am not that person... but I can definitely see why folks who are into that get upset... to me it looks like JJP will continue to do multiple limited runs/versions of games.
Although I don't like to see price increases JJP needs a business model that will work.... lets say for a second that they need to improve financials:
1. Increase sales volume: quickly move to your believed juggernaut titles (WW, toy story, etc...). This they are doing.
2. Increase volume: Make the product more differentiated, I don't think they need to do this, they are already top tier by a long shot on features.
3. Find a way to maintain product features and reduce costs/price eventually... easier said then done given they are probably swamped trying to get the pins out. The key would be to figure out what is must have vs. what is nice to have.... and cut nice to have (keeping the customer at the front here).
Wishing JJP the best, Dialed In on my radar for a pin I really want. My kids love it and I think it is really fun. I also really enjoy WOZ. Pricing of new pins is a bit much for me.... but hey, I'm not everyone so JJP needs to see if it can find its portion of the market and make it work.

Quoted from Mike_J:

Agreed.
If you can’t make money selling pinball machines at $9,500, it’s over. These knuckleheads have hit the ceiling on price.

Quoted from Pickle:

I have no skin in this game but there is a WHOLE OTHER WORLD of people with more money than they can spend......I know and have met people like this. When they want something they buy it.... don’t care what it costs.
And there are specific places that cater to people in this lifestyle......
The YBR is not for someone on a budget or looking for a deal. Think Supreme.......it means nothing but to show I can afford to buy something others can’t or someone who wants the best/most exclusive money can buy. They perceive and believe spending more on something means it’s the best though it often is not.

Quoted from lancestorm:

Screw collectibility. If jack can make money and jjp continues to thrive and produce games then we should all be so grateful to have so many options

Quoted from ataritoday:

My theory....

Quoted from Pickle:

Think Supreme.......it means nothing but to show I can afford to buy something others can’t or someone who wants the best/most exclusive money can buy.

Quoted from sethi_i:

There is absolutely nothing in this statemtent that is a fact.

Quoted from drfrightner:

Seriously I'm wasting my time its like talking to a wall. Yes what I said was a fact not an opinion.
As I clearly explained you fall into a group of buy, sell, trade. If you go into one of these high end showrooms they'll ask $15,000 for an Adams Family. Would I ever pay that NO, would you YOU, NO! Neither one of us are that stupid. I already posted here another fact, that a high end store I know about sold two Pirates a few weeks ago, both for $12,500.00 each. In case you're not aware those LE are $9500 on JJP website. This same store also has a RUG from Turkey or Iran or something, they're asking 1 million dollars. The salesman told me they turned down a $600,000 offer on it... I asked what would it take they said probably $700,000 . Yeah for a freaking RUG!
This exactly retail store told me they will price the YBR at $15 to 18k.
1) They rope off the game, and tell you its super limited, very special edition game. Which it is technically.
2) They offer things you don't get typically, 1 year warranty, they come to your house to fix it, they offer delivery and what they call WHITE GLOVE installation. This same store I'm talking about sold a Guardians of the Galaxy Pro for $8500 with the same treatment. I know because I bought the game from that lady for $4800 bucks. I got all the paperwork.
There are retail stores like this all over the place. People with a lot of money like the services such as white glove install, warranty, etc.
Why do you find this so hard to understand? I'm not making it up what reason do I have to do that... NONE!
3) Yes JJP has essentially already sold every single unit they're making. This is FACT! They only worked with their retail outlets and as you heard Jack say they're not offer the game for sale. Why do you think that is? The retail outlets bought them all already. I'm NOT saying those games are sold to customers, rather the retail outlets have already claimed like 90% of them already, and probably within the next 14 days they'll all be gone.
So all the haters who said no one will ever buy are dead wrong... those retail outlets already have waiting lists for games like WOZ and Adams Family two miles long. I can promise you the amount they made was probably based on how many their outlets committed to upon shipment.
Nothing Im' saying is wrong so if you don't want to believe fine, you probably also think USA landing on the moon is a hoax. LOL
You act like I'm saying JJP sold 10,003 copies, and they magically made them by working two long days. I mean get real. Deal with facts or don't I don't care.

Quoted from DBLM:

this represents a cash grab for JJP

Quoted from drfrightner:

Seriously I'm wasting my time its like talking to a wall. Yes what I said was a fact not an opinion.
As I clearly explained you fall into a group of buy, sell, trade. If you go into one of these high end showrooms they'll ask $15,000 for an Adams Family. Would I ever pay that NO, would you YOU, NO! Neither one of us are that stupid. I already posted here another fact, that a high end store I know about sold two Pirates a few weeks ago, both for $12,500.00 each. In case you're not aware those LE are $9500 on JJP website. This same store also has a RUG from Turkey or Iran or something, they're asking 1 million dollars. The salesman told me they turned down a $600,000 offer on it... I asked what would it take they said probably $700,000 . Yeah for a freaking RUG!
This exactly retail store told me they will price the YBR at $15 to 18k.
1) They rope off the game, and tell you its super limited, very special edition game. Which it is technically.
2) They offer things you don't get typically, 1 year warranty, they come to your house to fix it, they offer delivery and what they call WHITE GLOVE installation. This same store I'm talking about sold a Guardians of the Galaxy Pro for $8500 with the same treatment. I know because I bought the game from that lady for $4800 bucks. I got all the paperwork.
There are retail stores like this all over the place. People with a lot of money like the services such as white glove install, warranty, etc.
Why do you find this so hard to understand? I'm not making it up what reason do I have to do that... NONE!
3) Yes JJP has essentially already sold every single unit they're making. This is FACT! They only worked with their retail outlets and as you heard Jack say they're not offer the game for sale. Why do you think that is? The retail outlets bought them all already. I'm NOT saying those games are sold to customers, rather the retail outlets have already claimed like 90% of them already, and probably within the next 14 days they'll all be gone.
So all the haters who said no one will ever buy are dead wrong... those retail outlets already have waiting lists for games like WOZ and Adams Family two miles long. I can promise you the amount they made was probably based on how many their outlets committed to upon shipment.
Nothing Im' saying is wrong so if you don't want to believe fine, you probably also think USA landing on the moon is a hoax. LOL
You act like I'm saying JJP sold 10,003 copies, and they magically made them by working two long days. I mean get real. Deal with facts or don't I don't care.

Quoted from drfrightner:

There is an old saying, 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink'
Jack who started JJP, had no experience as a mass production company of games. Jack had a dream, he set up a company, hired American's to build that dream with him. WOZ was the biggest game changer for pinball's comeback than any game in history. Love JJP or hate them you can't deny that. JJP was great for Stern and the entire industry. JJP like every pinball company has made mistakes, but give credit where its due, he's still here and still producing great games.
The crimes in this industry haven't been committed by Stern or JJP, but rather the here one day and gone the next companies who stole your money.
More start up companies will attempt to make a pinball game, and probably will fail, but as the other old saying goes 'YOU NEVER KNOW'.
JJP, like Stern is an American made product, hiring Americans to manufacture in a time and age where most manufacturing jobs have left for China.
Any company Stern, JJP, American Pinball, anyone producing their games in the USA deserves credit, even if you think their latest game sucks to high heaven. If you don't like something DO NOT BUY IT!
JJP does things his way, every game created from scratch, new concept each time, which means slow grinding process to market. Stern has their system refined, has the ability to design games much faster, but clearly no where near as innovative. Pros and cons to both styles, neither to be trashed if you like the end result.
What I find SICK and DISGUSTING is how some people feel the need to tear down JJP at every single turn, and start ridiculous threads where they offer OPINIONS as FACTS! When they're wrong and they get called out, the other haters just jump in trashing you. I can tell you my feelings aren't hurt one bit... I'm not here for my health I'm pointing out JJP is a great American made product and deserves more respect than threads like this one.
The only people on this thread who're bashing people are the ones who support the idea that JJP is somehow bad for the industry... that is how you come across. You come across like you would throw a party if they announced tomorrow they are going bankrupt. This is a very sad situation that some people almost like PAID protesters find new ways every week to tear down this company.
You constantly state OPINIONS as they're facts, your wrong someone like myself points that out and I'm the jerk.
People should be HAPPY we have more than ONE company making pinball and trying to make it work. Competition is great and without it then and only then will you understand how dark your passion can get when it comes to innovation, new products, and more.
Just saying... last week I saw someone post personal attacks against Jack himself, making fun of him personally, why? Jack was a pinball guy a player and he turned that passion into a start up business. That is an American success story that should be appreciated.
That is my view. I'm done with giving life to this thread. I will support JJP because they support this hobby and American workers who need their job to pay their bills, feed their families, who give their best every day for YOUR PASSION for PINBALL!
Not every game JJP makes or every price point you will like or agree with, but JJP has to do what they need to do for their company to THRIVE and its NOT ANY of our business how they run their company. When you find the opportunity to buy something they offer do it, when you don't, no reason to trash them up and down and back around again.
Just saying!

Quoted from tslayer71:

Ya winning at being an ass clown....

Quoted from DBLM:

We need to separate what knowledgeable Pinside people will spend on a pin (regardless of income) vs what a rich non-Pinside person will spend. Pinside people are looking at a new version with less stuff for more money and laughing.

Quoted from spinal:

why would JJP release YBR at a pinball enthusiast seminar filled with pinsiders?

Quoted from spinal:

Sure but then why would JJP release YBR at a pinball enthusiast seminar filled with pinsiders? Someone did not think this through.
+1 to Stern here for releasing BKSOR a couple of days after show. Something JJP should have considered.
Instead, JJP trips over themselves leaving a wake of confusion just weeks before WW. They couldn’t have worse timing if they tried.

Quoted from drfrightner:

The debate on what someone pays for the game thru those retail outlets is being doubted. Those people clearly are stuck in the pinside bubble. You're right JJP is going to get their price, and those high end retailers will get what they can sell it for. You're 110% correct, but people will sell the game for the prices I listed.
JJP made more games because their retailers are asking for more of the games. Those places have waiting lists for that game which is why they did it... as for a cash grab who cares? Didn't Stern make new versions of ACDC who cares. That has nothing to do with anything. JJP has bills just like everyone else this is America right?
Who cares if they do the cash grab for every game they have... if there is demand and you can pre-sell them why not. Nothing wrong with that.

Quoted from spinal:

Sure but then why would JJP release YBR at a pinball enthusiast seminar filled with pinsiders? Someone did not think this through.
+1 to Stern here for releasing BKSOR a couple of days after show. Something JJP should have considered.
Instead, JJP trips over themselves leaving a wake of confusion just weeks before WW. They couldn’t have worse timing if they tried.

Quoted from Cserold:

I cannot make myself believe that JJP will do GNR. I would absolutely love it if they did but with as few games as they release, this doesn’t make much sense to me. Seems like a pretty small market. Yet, pinside seems to be pretty accurate on new releases. What am I missing her guys?

Quoted from pinlink:

So tell us the name of this store.

Quoted from Greenandwhite:

The JJP bashing is embarrassing already. They don’t appear to have an interest in competing on the low end of the spectrum. The themes are ****, delivery to slow, prices to high, blah blah blah. The amount of crying and whining is overwhelming. We get it YBR offended you, but how many new games will be released in 2019? It’s ok you don’t love em all.
I think JJP is making the highest quality, using the best toys, and utilizing deeper code than the competition.
Wonka will be BIG, stop hating its unbecoming .

Quoted from drfrightner:

There are retail stores like this all over the place. People with a lot of money like the services such as white glove install, warranty, etc. Why do you find this so hard to understand? I'm not making it up what reason do I have to do that... NONE!

Quoted from drfrightner:

Yes JJP has essentially already sold every single unit they're making. This is FACT!

Quoted from drfrightner:

Nothing Im' saying is wrong so if you don't want to believe fine

Quoted from Zablon:

Don't call Willy Wonka WW...call it WONK