Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Well your side sounds pretty black and white

Quoted from drfrightner:

Dude you make me laugh no doubt about it... first I didn't say WOZ was the most sought after game. Clearly you misunderstood what I was saying. Clearly very low production games like Big Lebowski are more sought after because you can't hardly get one. They have made 5,000 copies of WOZ.
The single most value muscle car EVER isn't a Mustang, its a 1971 Plymouth Cuda Hemi Convertible because there is only 12 known to exist... I watched an auction where this car sold for nearly 4 million dollars. Think about how many pinball games you could buy.
So obviously the games with the most limited runs, the hardest to find are by far the most sought after by PINBALL collectors. I'm not talking about PINBALL collectors, I'm talking about the rich guy who spends a fortune decking out a game room, his garage, or whatever. That person isn't going to buy some game in bad condition, and he's not going door to door either. He's going to a HIGH END retail location, pay the money for something MINT and not think twice. The Pinball Company has restored games they're asking nearly 20k for YOU PERSONALLY would NEVER pay that... but someone will. The person who wants instant gratification, no hassles, delivered, with a warranty.
Secondly, you say I've only been around a year, now that is just stupid. I bought my first pinball games over 20 years ago, back when you could buy Creature from the Black Lagoon for $800.00. Just because I wasn't wasting away like you on a pinball forum, doesn't mean anything. I actually own a business and work like every day! As I'm slowing down a bit do I find time for this.
Let me make ONE last point to you... pinside doesn't represent the pinball industry sorry to inform you!
See I talk facts not FICTION like you...
On pinside only 1000 roughly people CLAIM they own a WOZ that would account for about 1/5 of the games sold. Where is the other 80% brother?
Not on pinside!
Adams Family shows 1760 people claim to own one... where is the other roughly 18,000 copies and don't say destroyed?
There are people on these forums EVERY SINGLE DAY they buy pinball games for cheap, from people who never heard of pinside, refurb and resell.
Here is the point, PINSIDE has maybe 20% of the people viewing this site who own pinballs. That is a good number no dispute but don't think this BUBBLE you live in is an entire industry because its NOT!
I would bet that 90% of the people who own bowling centers, FEC, amusement parks who might own a pinball never heard of this forum.
Just check yourself into reality brother. This is a fun place to chat about games but its not the WHOLE WORLD!

Quoted from Yelobird:

That was over a week before TPF. All signs of Pirates FS are near gone. All his games were sold at the show his booth was amazing. Not looking to prove you wrong just stating this game is all but gone for a while and I’m glad I got one.

Quoted from rotordave:I come from 25 years of furniture manufacturing and retailing.
Whenever we had a massive seller, our first response was “let’s stop making them and stop taking the money”
No. We never did that.
If something is selling well - we made them around the clock until they sold no more!!
As would any business person.
rd

Quoted from drfrightner:

Fact YBR will sell for 15 to 18k at many high end retail stores, where delivery and set up is offered. Fact basically every single YBR game is already sold to those very same high end retailers. So the doom and gloom JJP haters, can go sulk knowing those facts.

Quoted from frolic:

If this is a fact, and there is a honeyhole for JJP to sell pins for this market, and YBR was not for the pinball show crowd, then it was a mistake to announce it at TPF. Just like Blizzard announcing a mobile game in front of a bunch of hardcore PC gamers.

Quoted from JodyG:

You know, your points would be much better received if you would stop making every one of your posts into a personal attack.

Quoted from KingPinGames:

I actually bought 20... and sold every one of them. I am completely sold out of all of my CE and LE. At this time I have 2 SE available and that's it!

Quoted from Eryeal:

Very, very rarely would you ever see a company lower prices simply because things are cheaper to make. That's not how business works. Greater efficiency and cost reduction = more profit, not = reduce prices.

Quoted from drfrightner:

Listen brother, I offer facts, and I can back them all up. Many people who're not in the amusement industry but live in the pinside bubble just aren't aware. I'm fully understanding that, and yes doesn't mean because I know something and someone else doesn't makes them dumb or a moron. I totally agree with that, but I'm offering this board insight, facts, they're not aware of and I'm the one getting attacked for it. How many people are telling me I don't know anything because I stated a fact that many retailers will sell this WOZ game for a fortune, way above the suggested retail.
I know for a FACT that a retailer just sold two POTC games for $12,500 each... just a couple weeks ago.
That same retailer told me they're going to put the new YBR game up for $18,000.00... I'm NOT making this up.
So why do people ATTACK me for telling you something that is 110% fact? I saw retailers selling Emerald editions for $13,000 just a bit over a year ago... why do people doubt this? How did a Beatles game sell for a reported $25k? Can anyone sit here and be honest and say Beatles was worth anything close to that number? But it sold!
There are more people out there buying and selling things than on pinside.
My intentions is not to insult anyone just offer some information. But honestly when people start threads like this with the SOLE purpose of TRASHING a great American Made Company, well that to me is the ULTIMATE insult.
You know REAL people work at JJP, support their families working there and they make pinball games. What is cooler than that?
So yes there are some REAL LOSERS on here who just love tearing down a company. its wrong and if I feel the need I will hammer them right back! Support JJP because they make their games in America, they love pinball, and just because every move they make isn't to your liking doesn't mean you need to TRASH THEM!

Quoted from JodyG:

You come on here with a big ego and are extremely arrogant. It is a little disingenuous to think that just because you know someone who sold a game, that the entire market must be exactly the same through and through. Maybe if you toned the rhetoric down a notch and just stated the facts, you would actually help educate all us there nitwit losers on here on understanding your point of view. The personal attacks need to stop.

Quoted from f3honda4me:

Good for you. Not sure what that has to do with the logistics of pinball parts sourcing from overseas and planning production schedules, game releases etc.

Quoted from Cserold:

iceman44 how about a friendly $500 bet that JJP will not release another POTC version. We can make it a year timeline. Two years if you like. Set those outlook reminders and if we are still alive, one side pays up. What do you say? I’ll even give you 2 to 1 odds

Quoted from drfrightner:

This statement by you goes to show YOU KNOW NOTHING about pinball. There are THREE different groups that buy pinball. You clearly are in one group where you mostly trade for games changing some cash as well. Probably 90% of the people who are diehard pinball people buy and trade games every day, but the guy who spends 15 to 18k for this YBR edition will buy the game and will never sell it, and hardly ever play it.
People with a lot of money buy things because they can, what else do they do with their money? WOZ is by far the most detailed, themed, beautiful, nostalgic pinball game EVER MADE. WOZ is the Mono Lisa of pinball, and HIGH END RETAIL stores ones that sell HIGH END game room stuff, million dollar rugs (seriously), or $200,000 chandeliers, will sell this game for 15 to 18,000 easy.
You sit here and say what you said without even thinking about the Beatles fan who paid $20,000 plus for a Beatles game worth 5k really. So I think its the other way around its you who doesn't know anything.
The second buyer is a location buyers, who mostly buys PRO stern games, the cheapest model. The last buyers group is more of a collector group, they all have something in common they have a lot of money. They probably collect many things, from muscle cars, to what knows what, and buying a very limited edition game for their fancy garage, or game room is nothing.
Just because you're in the buy, sell, trade group who thinks NO ONE would pay this amount for a pinball, doesn't mean people won't. Get yourself out of the box you're trapped in because you're a totally clueless.
Beatles limited editions sold as its been reported up to 25k, yes that sounds insane totally... so why wouldn't the most beloved movie of all time with a limited edition plague sell for the same? Its you not thinking straight not me.
Once this goes on sale at one of the high end places around here, I'm going to take a picture and SHOW YOU!
The same place I'm talking about HERE also sold TWO Pirates LE for $12,500 each. Yeah you heard that right!
This same store told me they got some Black Knight LE and they will be selling those for 12k as well.
Those places offer warranty up to a year, they do this thing called WHITE GLOVE where they bring it to your house set it up, blah, blah... where you on the other hand are just like tear the box apart like its Christmas.
IT IS CLEARLY TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF BUYERS BROTHER!
WOZ WILL SELL IN SOME PLACES FOR UP TO $18,000 you'll see!
Lastly, the people who think this game isn't going to sell, I have my sources its basically already sold out to their retail outlets. If you can muster up enough common sense, listen to what Jack said... THEY ARE NOT SELLING THE GAME DIRECT! Why? Because the game is basically already SOLD!
The main reason why some JJP have a tough time selling is the PRICE... everyone hear bitches about the price. Well retailers complain about not getting enough cut like compared to Stern. But with a game like WOZ they don't care because they're going to JACK UP THE PRICE and make more money off one WOZ game than TWO Stern Pro's.
How can they do that? Well because they can easy game to sell to the rich person who will pay for EVERYTHING to have something as limited as this.
You just need to embrace the REALITY there is more than ONE side to pinball.

Quoted from drfrightner:

There is an old saying, 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink'
Jack who started JJP, had no experience as a mass production company of games. Jack had a dream, he set up a company, hired American's to build that dream with him. WOZ was the biggest game changer for pinball's comeback than any game in history. Love JJP or hate them you can't deny that. JJP was great for Stern and the entire industry. JJP like every pinball company has made mistakes, but give credit where its due, he's still here and still producing great games.
The crimes in this industry haven't been committed by Stern or JJP, but rather the here one day and gone the next companies who stole your money.
More start up companies will attempt to make a pinball game, and probably will fail, but as the other old saying goes 'YOU NEVER KNOW'.
JJP, like Stern is an American made product, hiring Americans to manufacture in a time and age where most manufacturing jobs have left for China.
Any company Stern, JJP, American Pinball, anyone producing their games in the USA deserves credit, even if you think their latest game sucks to high heaven. If you don't like something DO NOT BUY IT!
JJP does things his way, every game created from scratch, new concept each time, which means slow grinding process to market. Stern has their system refined, has the ability to design games much faster, but clearly no where near as innovative. Pros and cons to both styles, neither to be trashed if you like the end result.
What I find SICK and DISGUSTING is how some people feel the need to tear down JJP at every single turn, and start ridiculous threads where they offer OPINIONS as FACTS! When they're wrong and they get called out, the other haters just jump in trashing you. I can tell you my feelings aren't hurt one bit... I'm not here for my health I'm pointing out JJP is a great American made product and deserves more respect than threads like this one.
The only people on this thread who're bashing people are the ones who support the idea that JJP is somehow bad for the industry... that is how you come across. You come across like you would throw a party if they announced tomorrow they are going bankrupt. This is a very sad situation that some people almost like PAID protesters find new ways every week to tear down this company.
You constantly state OPINIONS as they're facts, your wrong someone like myself points that out and I'm the jerk.
People should be HAPPY we have more than ONE company making pinball and trying to make it work. Competition is great and without it then and only then will you understand how dark your passion can get when it comes to innovation, new products, and more.
Just saying... last week I saw someone post personal attacks against Jack himself, making fun of him personally, why? Jack was a pinball guy a player and he turned that passion into a start up business. That is an American success story that should be appreciated.
That is my view. I'm done with giving life to this thread. I will support JJP because they support this hobby and American workers who need their job to pay their bills, feed their families, who give their best every day for YOUR PASSION for PINBALL!
Not every game JJP makes or every price point you will like or agree with, but JJP has to do what they need to do for their company to THRIVE and its NOT ANY of our business how they run their company. When you find the opportunity to buy something they offer do it, when you don't, no reason to trash them up and down and back around again.
Just saying!

Quoted from drfrightner:

Listen brother, I offer facts,

Quoted from drfrightner:

There is an old saying, 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink'
Jack who started JJP, had no experience as a mass production company of games. Jack had a dream, he set up a company, hired American's to build that dream with him. WOZ was the biggest game changer for pinball's comeback than any game in history. Love JJP or hate them you can't deny that. JJP was great for Stern and the entire industry. JJP like every pinball company has made mistakes, but give credit where its due, he's still here and still producing great games.
The crimes in this industry haven't been committed by Stern or JJP, but rather the here one day and gone the next companies who stole your money.
More start up companies will attempt to make a pinball game, and probably will fail, but as the other old saying goes 'YOU NEVER KNOW'.
JJP, like Stern is an American made product, hiring Americans to manufacture in a time and age where most manufacturing jobs have left for China.
Any company Stern, JJP, American Pinball, anyone producing their games in the USA deserves credit, even if you think their latest game sucks to high heaven. If you don't like something DO NOT BUY IT!
JJP does things his way, every game created from scratch, new concept each time, which means slow grinding process to market. Stern has their system refined, has the ability to design games much faster, but clearly no where near as innovative. Pros and cons to both styles, neither to be trashed if you like the end result.
What I find SICK and DISGUSTING is how some people feel the need to tear down JJP at every single turn, and start ridiculous threads where they offer OPINIONS as FACTS! When they're wrong and they get called out, the other haters just jump in trashing you. I can tell you my feelings aren't hurt one bit... I'm not here for my health I'm pointing out JJP is a great American made product and deserves more respect than threads like this one.
The only people on this thread who're bashing people are the ones who support the idea that JJP is somehow bad for the industry... that is how you come across. You come across like you would throw a party if they announced tomorrow they are going bankrupt. This is a very sad situation that some people almost like PAID protesters find new ways every week to tear down this company.
You constantly state OPINIONS as they're facts, your wrong someone like myself points that out and I'm the jerk.
People should be HAPPY we have more than ONE company making pinball and trying to make it work. Competition is great and without it then and only then will you understand how dark your passion can get when it comes to innovation, new products, and more.
Just saying... last week I saw someone post personal attacks against Jack himself, making fun of him personally, why? Jack was a pinball guy a player and he turned that passion into a start up business. That is an American success story that should be appreciated.
That is my view. I'm done with giving life to this thread. I will support JJP because they support this hobby and American workers who need their job to pay their bills, feed their families, who give their best every day for YOUR PASSION for PINBALL!
Not every game JJP makes or every price point you will like or agree with, but JJP has to do what they need to do for their company to THRIVE and its NOT ANY of our business how they run their company. When you find the opportunity to buy something they offer do it, when you don't, no reason to trash them up and down and back around again.
Just saying!

Quoted from drfrightner:

There is an old saying, 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink'
Jack who started JJP, had no experience as a mass production company of games. Jack had a dream, he set up a company, hired American's to build that dream with him. WOZ was the biggest game changer for pinball's comeback than any game in history. Love JJP or hate them you can't deny that. JJP was great for Stern and the entire industry. JJP like every pinball company has made mistakes, but give credit where its due, he's still here and still producing great games.
The crimes in this industry haven't been committed by Stern or JJP, but rather the here one day and gone the next companies who stole your money.
More start up companies will attempt to make a pinball game, and probably will fail, but as the other old saying goes 'YOU NEVER KNOW'.
JJP, like Stern is an American made product, hiring Americans to manufacture in a time and age where most manufacturing jobs have left for China.
Any company Stern, JJP, American Pinball, anyone producing their games in the USA deserves credit, even if you think their latest game sucks to high heaven. If you don't like something DO NOT BUY IT!
JJP does things his way, every game created from scratch, new concept each time, which means slow grinding process to market. Stern has their system refined, has the ability to design games much faster, but clearly no where near as innovative. Pros and cons to both styles, neither to be trashed if you like the end result.
What I find SICK and DISGUSTING is how some people feel the need to tear down JJP at every single turn, and start ridiculous threads where they offer OPINIONS as FACTS! When they're wrong and they get called out, the other haters just jump in trashing you. I can tell you my feelings aren't hurt one bit... I'm not here for my health I'm pointing out JJP is a great American made product and deserves more respect than threads like this one.
The only people on this thread who're bashing people are the ones who support the idea that JJP is somehow bad for the industry... that is how you come across. You come across like you would throw a party if they announced tomorrow they are going bankrupt. This is a very sad situation that some people almost like PAID protesters find new ways every week to tear down this company.
You constantly state OPINIONS as they're facts, your wrong someone like myself points that out and I'm the jerk.
People should be HAPPY we have more than ONE company making pinball and trying to make it work. Competition is great and without it then and only then will you understand how dark your passion can get when it comes to innovation, new products, and more.
Just saying... last week I saw someone post personal attacks against Jack himself, making fun of him personally, why? Jack was a pinball guy a player and he turned that passion into a start up business. That is an American success story that should be appreciated.
That is my view. I'm done with giving life to this thread. I will support JJP because they support this hobby and American workers who need their job to pay their bills, feed their families, who give their best every day for YOUR PASSION for PINBALL!
Not every game JJP makes or every price point you will like or agree with, but JJP has to do what they need to do for their company to THRIVE and its NOT ANY of our business how they run their company. When you find the opportunity to buy something they offer do it, when you don't, no reason to trash them up and down and back around again.
Just saying!

Quoted from drfrightner:

Listen brother,

Quoted from jgentry:

This is a FORUM, everything OFFERED is AN opinion, NOT a FaCt. YOU do NOT know ANYTHING more THAN anyone ELSE, nor ARE your OPINIONS anymore VALID.

Quoted from Cserold:

iceman44 how about a friendly $500 bet that JJP will not release another POTC version. We can make it a year timeline. Two years if you like. Set those outlook reminders and if we are still alive, one side pays up. What do you say? I’ll even give you 2 to 1 odds

Quoted from LTG:

And the chance to have dinner with Jack and Pat Lawlor. Don't leave that out.
LTG : )

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

First off, all CE's, Platinums, Diamonds, and Super LE's are cash grabs regardless of the manfucater.
As for Dialed In CE for $3k more you got higher quality laser etched armour, a mirrored backglass with unique art, dinner with JJP staff, a couple custom code line just for the CE, and the jacket. Still a cash grab regardless. Guess what you get for $7k more for a Beatles Platinum and $12k more for a Beatles Diamond? A mirrored backglass and different color armour. LOL!
I can do this all day.

Quoted from Spencer:

I'll never own another one due to the cost.

Quoted from f3honda4me:

Well now I want to go watch stripes again.

Quoted from Coz:

How is Toy Story outdated and doa? One of the biggest movie franchises of all time. Toy story 3 Made over 1billion at the box office. Toy story 4 comes out in a couple months. JJP needs to capitalize on this. Could be a huge money maker for them if done properly

Quoted from JodyG:

You know, your points would be much better received if you would stop making every one of your posts into a personal attack.

Quoted from lancestorm:

Hulk Hogan? Is that you?

Quoted from YZRider926:

I don’t really care what they make and how much they sell for.

Quoted from gliebig:

You actually read his posts?

Quoted from spinal:

Has there been some cultural shift in recent years where ‘not caring’ is a flag to be waved with pride?

Quoted from Bublehead:

Yes, it is waved like a white flag of surrender, except they are waving it before the war has even begun. Like a shield against trolls or tin hats... I dont care about subject X so dont attack me, I surrender.

Quoted from drfrightner:

No just offering facts. Fact YBR will sell for 15 to 18k at many high end retail stores, where delivery and set up is offered. Fact basically every single YBR game is already sold to those very same high end retailers. So the doom and gloom JJP haters, can go sulk knowing those facts.
WOZ is not a game competing against the very awesome brand new Black Knight, it appeals to a different group the same way the Beatles sold for upwards of 20k. I'm offering facts... nothing black or white just facts.
If you dispute something I'm stating offer facts or evidence. We can debate it.
Fact only 1000 ish WOZ games are claimed by pinsiders, we know over or near 5000 games have sold that is only 20%. Adams Family 20k games produced only 1760 pinsiders claim the game... so FACT pinside is only a small group of pinball owners. So that should make you understand there is a WORLD outside this forum, with different buyers, and different sellers.
These are just facts not black or white.
An opinion which I have as well is that Pirates is the GOAT, or Black Knight looks amazing, or I'm not a fan of TNA.
You could feel the opposite and I respect everyone's OPINIONS but when someone states I'm an idiot because I state a fact, well you're doing just that stating an opinion without a fact to back it up.
YBR will sell at high end retail locations for up to $18k bank on it (with the perks the retailer offers like deliver, warranty, and set up)
Something a guy like you or me would NEVER pay for!

Quoted from PtownPin:

Who knows maybe somebody with stupid money will pay that, but I would say 99% of the people who buy pinball machines wouldn't pay close to that amount....people with money don't make stupid decisions even if its a pinball machine. Most if not all will do some level of research to make sure the retailer is somewhat competitive...most people with dough are always focused on the "art of the deal"...its part of their DNA

Quoted from Mike_J:

This dolt suggests that there is a segment of the population that will perform zero cursory research when spending upwards of 18K on a pinball machine. That sentiment is just not based in reality.

Quoted from fosaisu:

You're just saying that because you don't have a high-end chandelier/pinball boutique in your town.

Quoted from fosaisu:

You're just saying that because you don't have a high-end chandelier/pinball boutique in your town.

Quoted from drfrightner:

No just offering facts. Fact YBR will sell for 15 to 18k at many high end retail stores, where delivery and set up is offered. Fact basically every single YBR game is already sold to those very same high end retailers.

Quoted from JodyG:

You know, your points would be much better received if you would stop making every one of your posts into a personal attack.

Quoted from drfrightner:

the idea that his YBR reveal was a disaster is in fact a joke.

Quoted from drfrightner:

Listen brother, I offer facts, and I can back them all up.

Quoted from SunKing:

It's a FACT!!!

..link to distributor selling YBR for 15k+ please. You should have this handy as you know it for a FACT!

Quoted from SunKing:

..link to distributor selling YBR for 15k+ please. You should have this handy as you know it for a FACT!

Quoted from Mike_J:

Thanks for calling out this windbag.